Should Beckett Start WS Game 4?

[TheKilo]

Of course' date=' but the point is there isn't anything suggesting he can't perform just as well on 3 days rest.[/quote']

 

Yes there is, loads of evidence saying that most pitchers struggled on 3 days rest as opposed to a very small sample size of two games for Beckett.

 

Its common practice using #1 starters on 3 days rest in the playoffs. My preference would be to use him 3 times and not use Lester. I think that would give us the best chance of winning. He is a better pitcher than Lester. He has proven he can pitch well on 3 days rest. Whats to suggest that its a bad move?

 

The massive amounts of factual evidence to the contrary as opposed to the very small sample size of two games.

 

I admit Farrell and Tito know far more than I do about Beckett, his healthy, etc. But he was VERY strong in game 5 against the Guardians. Whats to suggest that he would have done significantly worse on 1 day less rest? He certainly didn't say anything along the lines of him not feeling like he could pitch on 3 days rest.

 

As mentioned, it would be two days less rest, and if they know more about the situation than you then doesn't it make sense to defer to their judgment?

 

The truth is its all speculation. Some want him to pitch 3 games, some want him to pitch 2. Its pure opinion. There really isn't any way to prove which is better. Beckett has done it in the past, but as you have said, that is a small sample size. But I guess a small sample size that suggests one thing is better than nothing that suggest the other...

 

I'd say if Beckett feels strong enough to pitch on 3 days rest, do it. If he doesn't, don't.

 

Either way, lets just win.

 

 

I'll let you control my sig if he starts one game on three days rest.

[schillingouttheks]

I'll let you control my sig if he starts one game on three days rest.

 

You should edit this to include " ... three days rest when the Sox aren't down 3-0."

[TheKilo]

You should edit this to include " ... three days rest when the Sox aren't down 3-0."

 

I won't because I don't think they'll be down 3-0.

[TedWilliams101]

I don't think they will pitch him on 3 days rest.

[YAZMAN]

this is absolutely false. Pitching is an anaerobic activity? The only anaerobic activity you perform is when your 02 demand exceeds its supply' date=' then you shift your energy making capability from oxidative phosphorylation to lactate production from pyruvate. The lactic acid builds up which causes fatigue.[/quote']

 

There are two types of anaerobic excercise. One is very short term, "burst" type activity, ATP and CP are used. There's not enough time to break 6C glycogen into two 3C lactates and use the cheap energy. That occurs during anaerobic activity of moderate duration like long sprints from over ten seconds up to a max of maybe 90 seconds - like a 440 dash. Glycogen is used in this fashion because the muscles deplete their ATP in the first few seconds and turn to the inefficient anaerobic use of glycogen rather than the higher yielding aerobic use of glycogen because it takes the body too long to metabolize the fuel with O2 and aerobic metabolism cannot maintain the pace necessary to provide enough energy to the muscles.

 

Here's a little excerpt from baseballfit.com about your boy Raajaa's regimen:

 

"The Rocket's regimen includes shorter, more intense bursts of anaerobic exercises, convinced that it better trains him for actually pitching."

 

BF - Clemens is right on the mark with this approach. This is a much better regimen than running lots of long, slow distance miles, something Clemens did in his early years. Baseball is not an aerobic sport, the energy system trained by long slow distance work. It is an alactic-anaerobic activity. Therefore, short burst anaerobic exercises, such as sprinting, will help build the leg strength a pitcher needs. Potteiger et al., in a 1989 study published in the NSCA Journal using college pitchers, found a high correlation between pitching velocity and anaerobic power. In other words, the greater the anaerobic power, the greater the throwing velocity.

 

Reference: http://www.baseballfit.com/roger_clemens.htm

 

PS - If you ever see me in need of immediate medical attention, plaease be sure to dial 9-1-1. Thanks.

[a700hitter]

Since there are no extra days off besides the travel days, he'd have to start both games 4 and 7 on short rest.

[ORS]

Since there are no extra days off besides the travel days' date=' he'd have to start both games 4 and 7 on short rest.[/quote']

Which I personally think Beckett would be able to do.

 

However, the idea of starting Beckett on 3 days rest is really dependent on whether or not you (this is for everyone, not just 700) are willing to pitch Schilling and Dice K on 3 days rest. Think about it. Starting him in game 4 if they are down 0-3 is for what purpose? To avoid having Lester pitch the elimination game, right? Well, if you are willing to pitch Schilling on 3 days rest in Colorado and then Dice on three days rest at Fenway in games 5 and 6 because you want to avoid Lester, then you do it. Otherwise, it's an irrelevant debate.

 

About the only scenario, keeping in mind the goal is to avoid Lester in an elimination game, is if they are down 1-2, Beckett pitches game 4 and wins making it 2-2, Lester does what he does in game 5, then you have Schilling in game 6, and a Dice K/Beckett combo in game 7.

[Mr Crunchy]

weather may play a factor in this

say we open tonite and it pours in the 4th inning and then the 2.5 hour rain delay occurs then becks wont return....

he will then be essentially fresh for the game 4 start

seeing as i will be in attendance tomorrow evening do i want to see becks or schillings last start in fenway??

schilling hasnt lost a playoff game in fenway park and his home #s are just insane over the years here

our pen performed very well and is jon paplebon a complete and utter psychopath or what?

between him and julian tavares it would be difficult to get comfortable in the box.

[rician blast]

Like any good manager/coaching staff/FO I am sure there has been a lot of thought put into the various potential scenarios that might evolve over the course of this series in terms of how the pitching will align.

 

Bottom line with the Sox is they don't panic and they don't play to lose in 6 instead of losing in 5. They play to win the series, period. As such, I wouldn't be shocked by them doing something unconventional OR something that seems too conservative. Whatever it takes without sacrificing player health and the team's ultimate chance to win it all.

[Mr Crunchy]

outside of falling 3-1 to cleveland their plan since june 1st has been played to a T

im not a francona or theo guy but i tend to call spades spades.

these 2 succeeded this summer inspite of the gagne deal(i do it all day long)and maybe using dice in game 2 against the halos.

outstanding effort by francona and the gm to get these guys prepared for october

nobody remembers manny disappearing in september now because hes hitting 400 in october

no one remembers schilling taking 6 weeks off to rest a tired arm with no apparent injury

no one remembers we dl'd beckett

 

all these moves played out perfectly

the younger guys like youk and pedroia looked burnt out at the end of the year

they now look great

no one needed the time off more than us and our people have used it brilliantly

i just dont see how colorado hangs around here

[TheKilo]

outside of falling 3-1 to cleveland their plan since june 1st has been played to a T

im not a francona or theo guy but i tend to call spades spades.

these 2 succeeded this summer inspite of the gagne deal(i do it all day long)and maybe using dice in game 2 against the halos.

outstanding effort by francona and the gm to get these guys prepared for october

nobody remembers manny disappearing in september now because hes hitting 400 in october

no one remembers schilling taking 6 weeks off to rest a tired arm with no apparent injury

no one remembers we dl'd beckett

 

all these moves played out perfectly

the younger guys like youk and pedroia looked burnt out at the end of the year

they now look great

no one needed the time off more than us and our people have used it brilliantly

i just dont see how colorado hangs around here

 

I agree 100%. Playoff Tito is as good, if not better than, any current postseason manager.

[rician blast]

I agree 100%. Playoff Tito is as good' date=' if not better than, any current postseason manager.[/quote']

 

Playoff Tito, IMO, gets a lot of input from his staff AND the Front Office. I think at times we've all speculated that the FO input might be more than he'd like. Tito at the helm does a great job of keeping everyone grounded, positive and hungry.

 

At any rate, as I said earlier, and this ties in with Crunch and Kilo's comments, this squad, from top down, does not seem to panic. They don't operate under a vail of desperation. They attempt to put things in place in order to WIN IT ALL...they are not satisfied with making the playoffs then losing.

 

Cases in point?

 

2007...Resting guys as the Yankees are breathing down their necks. Why? Because they want to assure themselves of going deep into the playoffs and contending, not burning the team out trying to win the division, then getting hammered in the playoffs.

 

2006...not making desperation moves approaching the trading deadline in attempt to make an ill-fated appearance in the playoffs...the FO knew they had little shot of a WS appearance and stood pat.

 

This ownership group and its GM have stated in the past that they can not expect to make a run every single year...that there'd be re-tooling years. Not to get ahead of myself (anything can happen...bats can cool, pitching can falter) but if they win it this year, I'd be pretty fkn satisfied with their recipe, with 2 titles in 4 years.

[TheKilo]

Playoff Tito' date=' IMO, gets a lot of input from his staff AND the Front Office. I think at times we've all speculated that the FO input might be more than he'd like. Tito at the helm does a great job of keeping everyone grounded, positive and hungry.[/quote']

 

I agree to a certain extent. Tito has a much quicker hook in the playoffs (perfect example was Game 2 of the ALDS) and is not scared to roll the dice sometimes (pitching Foulke on three straight days, with some appearances as early as the 7th, benching Crisp for Ellsbury, etc.) It seems his mentality is so much different in the postseason.

 

He understands the regular season is a grind. He understand that the playoffs is anything but.

 

At any rate, as I said earlier, and this ties in with Crunch and Kilo's comments, this squad, from top down, does not seem to panic. They don't operate under a vail of desperation. They attempt to put things in place in order to WIN IT ALL...they are not satisfied with making the playoffs then losing.

 

Cases in point?

 

2007...Resting guys as the Yankees are breathing down their necks. Why? Because they want to assure themselves of going deep into the playoffs and contending, not burning the team out trying to win the division, then getting hammered in the playoffs.

 

2006...not making desperation moves approaching the trading deadline in attempt to make an ill-fated appearance in the playoffs...the FO knew they had little shot of a WS appearance and stood pat.

 

This ownership group and its GM have stated in the past that they can not expect to make a run every single year...that there'd be re-tooling years. Not to get ahead of myself (anything can happen...bats can cool, pitching can falter) but if they win it this year, I'd be pretty fkn satisfied with their recipe, with 2 titles in 4 years.

 

Agreed. I think for all of the hand wringing that was done about the FO last season, this offseason, and even throughout this season (ex. not getting Dye), it seems that they have a pretty good plan in place and have no qualms about sticking to it.

 

And honestly, if you look at the resume since the ownership group took over in 2001:

 

2002: 93-69, A 93 win team that doesn't make the playoffs??

2003: 95-67, ALCS

2004: 98-64, WS

2005: 95-67, ALDS

2006: 86-76

2007: 96-66, WS

 

 

So basically, we have 4 95 win teams in 6 years, an overall record of 563-409 (.579), an AL East Championship, four playoff appearances, and two pennants? Not to mention all of the drafts and other transactions...

 

Yeah I'd say they've done a decent job.

[jacksonianmarch]

There are two types of anaerobic excercise. One is very short term, "burst" type activity, ATP and CP are used. There's not enough time to break 6C glycogen into two 3C lactates and use the cheap energy. That occurs during anaerobic activity of moderate duration like long sprints from over ten seconds up to a max of maybe 90 seconds - like a 440 dash. Glycogen is used in this fashion because the muscles deplete their ATP in the first few seconds and turn to the inefficient anaerobic use of glycogen rather than the higher yielding aerobic use of glycogen because it takes the body too long to metabolize the fuel with O2 and aerobic metabolism cannot maintain the pace necessary to provide enough energy to the muscles.

 

Here's a little excerpt from baseballfit.com about your boy Raajaa's regimen:

 

"The Rocket's regimen includes shorter, more intense bursts of anaerobic exercises, convinced that it better trains him for actually pitching."

 

BF - Clemens is right on the mark with this approach. This is a much better regimen than running lots of long, slow distance miles, something Clemens did in his early years. Baseball is not an aerobic sport, the energy system trained by long slow distance work. It is an alactic-anaerobic activity. Therefore, short burst anaerobic exercises, such as sprinting, will help build the leg strength a pitcher needs. Potteiger et al., in a 1989 study published in the NSCA Journal using college pitchers, found a high correlation between pitching velocity and anaerobic power. In other words, the greater the anaerobic power, the greater the throwing velocity.

 

Reference: http://www.baseballfit.com/roger_clemens.htm

 

PS - If you ever see me in need of immediate medical attention, plaease be sure to dial 9-1-1. Thanks.

 

Once again, the internet in the wrong hands can be a bad thing.

 

Pitching does consist of short bursts. And those short bursts do eat up stores ATP. But if you continue to have many short bursts (like pitching in a game vs one throw), you will burn out your ATP stores VERY quickly and they need repletion. How do you replete those ATP stores most efficiently? Well, by oxidative phosphorylation, that is how. And what does oxidative phosphorylation require. DING DING DING DING. OXYGEN. And if you require more oxygen than you have available, what do you burn? That's right folks, Pyruvate. And what does that Pyruvate get converted to. DING DING DING. Lactate. I can show you the pathway if you want. And what does that Lactate do? It causes signs and symptoms of fatigure. Can you follow? Maybe not, I understand though. The internet only gets you so far.

[See Red]

You act like it's the f***ing moon. There is oxygen in Denver, Colorado. The altitude will have no physical effect on a pitcher.

[YAZMAN]

Once again, the internet in the wrong hands can be a bad thing.

 

Pitching does consist of short bursts. And those short bursts do eat up stores ATP. But if you continue to have many short bursts (like pitching in a game vs one throw), you will burn out your ATP stores VERY quickly and they need repletion. How do you replete those ATP stores most efficiently? Well, by oxidative phosphorylation, that is how. And what does oxidative phosphorylation require. DING DING DING DING. OXYGEN. And if you require more oxygen than you have available, what do you burn? That's right folks, Pyruvate. And what does that Pyruvate get converted to. DING DING DING. Lactate. I can show you the pathway if you want. And what does that Lactate do? It causes signs and symptoms of fatigure. Can you follow? Maybe not, I understand though. The internet only gets you so far.

 

Right, and if he were pitching at one of the ski resorts in Vaill or Breckenridge, utilization of available O2 might be a concern. But as previously mentioned in an earlier post of mine - a reply to some of your earlier garbage - the difference in O2 at Coors Field elevation is not enough to make a significant difference in a pitcher's ability to utilize aerobic pathways to recover from the demands of his anaerobic activity. That was on page three. If it were an issue, wouldn't it be currently discussed?

 

Altitude discussions about Coors Field revolve around how much further the batted ball travels and how much less offspeed pitches break, not pitchers crapping out due to insufficient O2.

 

Congratulations, you've talked yourself in a circle again.

[YAZMAN]

Can you find a source? You'd have better luck finding a source that claimed the altitude-trained Rockies pitchers were delirious from O2 oversaturation, or maybe some VO2min dynamic is affecting them at sea level.

 

WTF is up with their pitching? Are they channeling Kyle Farnsworth, Luis Vizcaino, or maybe Ross Ohlendorf?

[a700hitter]

Ice Beckett down and get him out of there.

[jacksonianmarch]

Can you find a source? You'd have better luck finding a source that claimed the altitude-trained Rockies pitchers were delirious from O2 oversaturation. or maybe some VO2min dynamic is affecting them.

 

WTF is up with their pitching? Are they channeling Kyle Farnsworth, Luis Vizcaino, or maybe Ross Ohlendorf?

 

02 oversaturation, lol. The one thing that people do over time when they live at higher altitudes is to have a slightly higher blood count. Thats about it. Increase carrying capacity.

 

And yeah, the Rockies looked like deer in headlights. I am not arguing that the sox wont win this thing, cause they will in 5, I am just saying that when you live at a lower partial pressure of oxygen, athletic performance will fatigue a bit sooner. You may not feel it or it may be so small like ORS or like most baseball players who show there, but it is there.

[TheKilo]

02 oversaturation, lol. The one thing that people do over time when they live at higher altitudes is to have a slightly higher blood count. Thats about it. Increase carrying capacity.

 

And yeah, the Rockies looked like deer in headlights. I am not arguing that the sox wont win this thing, cause they will in 5, I am just saying that when you live at a lower partial pressure of oxygen, athletic performance will fatigue a bit sooner. You may not feel it or it may be so small like ORS or like most baseball players who show there, but it is there.

 

Nice job backtracking whore.

[Mr Crunchy]

mj

shouldnt you be pining for terry francona to be the yankee manager about now??

its gotta be tuff watching for the haters of redsox nation.

1 minute we're down 3-1 and facing death

the next minute??

ortiz manny and lugo are in your bedroom giving the bride the hi hard one

paps and becks are taking out the big tv with lowell driving the van and schillings got his arm around your teenage daughter asking her if she needs to see the light..

 

its faaaaaaaaakin beautiful baby