The Struggles of C.M. Wang

[yankees228]

I understand that I'm probably going to get killed here by the fellow Yankee fans on this board, and maybe even by the Red Sox fans, but, in my opinion, Wang has been a bit of a disapointment so far this year.

 

I understand that he is among the major league leaders in wins, but we all know that that is a poor metric to define a pitcher's success. He's had the benefit of a great deal of run support this year, but as the Yankees begin to play the more difficult stretch of there schedule, the games that Wang was winning early in the year may turn to losses. Overall he has a solid ERA, but that is mainly due to a few really good starts. Obviously you can't take away his really good starts, but the overall picture is much more important. For what it's worth, this is not necessarily a reactionary post to tonight's performance, however I think this is good timing for a thread like this.

 

Wang's splits have me extremely concerned about his future performance. He has really struggled so far this year on the road. His WHIP goes up from 1.10 to 1.41. His GO/AO (ground outs/air outs) goes down from 2.59 to 2.18. This is a concerning stat, especially from Wang who relies so heavily on keeping the ball on the ground. Maybe the scariest stat of all is that his BAA goes up from .288 to .350 when he pitches on the road. A .350 BAA is more like a stat that you would see from a AAAA player rathen than from an ace. Just to prove how meaningless his W/L record, he winning percentage on the road is .857 compared to a .636 winning percentage at home.

 

Another huge problem for Wang this year has been left handed batters. Left handed hitters are hitting .332 while right handed hitters are hitting .297. Neither is good, but the first one is downright awful. His WHIP increases to 1.34 against lefties, while it's a much more respectable 1.13 against righties. his GO/AO goes down from 3.08 against righties to 2.00 against lefites. Lefties are also slugging .419 which is over .100 points higher than righties are.

 

Wang has also had difficulty pitching out of the stretch this year, as almost all of his numbers go the wrong way once players get on base. Wang's stats with runners in scoring position are especially alarming. His BAA is .356, and hitter are slugging .434. His WHIP with RISP is 1.54. On top of that, he simply isn't pitching well late in games. In late innings of close games (per mlb.com) his BAA is .667, while hitters are slugging an amazing 1.188 off him. His WHIP, and this is not a mistake, is 6.00. I'm not putting a lot of weight on the close game part, because I'm not a big fan of the clutch theories out there, but I do put a lot of weight on the late part. Wang is clearly tiring earlier than he should, and, considering the state of the Yankees bullpen, this is a huge issue.

 

On top of everything else, you would think that Wang would be decent when he falls behind in the count, because he can throw a sinker on 2-0 or 3-1 which looks like it's middle of the plate, then drops below the knees on turns into a week groundball. This has not been the case. When Wang is behind in the count his BAA is .396, while hitters are slugging .416 against him. His WHIP is 1.76 in these situations. Obviously, I don't expect any pitcher to be great when he's behind in the count (that's the whole point of getting ahead of the hitter), but I'd expect Wang, due to his strengths, to be better then this.

 

By the way, just to prove that this is not a reactionary thread to tonight's performance, none of these numbers include tonight's outing. I understand this is a lot of numbers, and it might not be the smoothest thing to read, but if you take the time to read it I think you'll see what I'm talking about. I'm interested on what you guys have to say on Wang, because he doesn't seem to be a point of discussion (of course it's a Red Sox board lol, so he wouldn't be, but I mean in the Yankees forum).

 

EDIT: The thread title should obviously be 'of' instead of 'on'. Mods feel free to make the correction.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I have a short, simple answer as to why the Yankees boards dont talk about it.

 

It's because if you compare him with the pile of steaming bovine excrement that has been Yankees pitching this season, he comes out smelling pretty good. He's been the LEAST disappointing thing and even though, yes, wins arent a great stat to judge by, most fans still look to the win-loss record as a thing to decide whether or not to hate a guy. Numbers or no, he is still 13-5 (13-6 after tonight) and when your team as late as July was four thousand games under .500 and had eleventh graders, blind men, and trees on the hill every third to fifth day, winning 13 of a pitchers starts looks damn good.

[yankees228]

I have a short, simple answer as to why the Yankees boards dont talk about it.

 

It's because if you compare him with the pile of steaming bovine excrement that has been Yankees pitching this season, he comes out smelling pretty good. He's been the LEAST disappointing thing and even though, yes, wins arent a great stat to judge by, most fans still look to the win-loss record as a thing to decide whether or not to hate a guy. Numbers or no, he is still 13-5 (13-6 after tonight) and when your team as late as July was four thousand games under .500 and had eleventh graders, blind men, and trees on the hill every third to fifth day, winning 13 of a pitchers starts looks damn good.

 

I'm not necessarily looking for a response as to why it's not talked about. I'm just looking more for peoples feelings about him. A lot of Yankees fans look at him as the ace of the staff, and a key contributor for years to come. However, the stuff a stated above is extremely alarming in my opinion. I'm not looking to compare to anybody else. I'm only looking at him, and, more or less, using some of those numbers to predict future successes or failures. Wins tell me that the team has a good offense. Some of the statistics I've listed tell me how well the pitcher has actually done.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Since June 1st CMW is 10-2(counting tonights loss). He has made 21 starts and hes pitched at least 6 innings in 19 of those starts. Disapointment? Are you kidding me? Its the same story every year for Wang. He does really strike anybody out which makes what hes done the past 3 years remarkable. Hes never gonna blow anyone away like Santana, but hes consistantly good.

[yankees228]

Since June 1st CMW is 10-2(counting tonights loss). He has made 21 starts and hes pitched at least 6 innings in 19 of those starts. Disapointment? Are you kidding me? Its the same story every year for Wang. He does really strike anybody out which makes what hes done the past 3 years remarkable. Hes never gonna blow anyone away like Santana' date=' but hes consistantly good.[/quote']

 

Disapointment might be the wrong word. How about a little overrated? Yankee fans love him, I get it. I expected this kind of response. However I don't even think you took a look at any of the numbers that I put out there.

 

He wins. Fine. But take a look a some of those wins. He doesn't always pitch great, but his team scores so many runs for him. If he got the same kind of run support that Pettitte got for most of the year, his record wouldn't even be close to what Pettitte has done, in my opinion.

 

Wins are a poor metric for defining an individual pitchers success. For me, that's a fact. For others, it's not. But if you want to look at how well a pitcher has done, I wouldn't look at stuff that he has no control over. He has some control over his wins, but it could be argued how much control a pitcher actually has. There are statistics that are a much better indicator of how well a pitcher has done than a statistics that directly involves how many runs the offense scores for that particular pitcher.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Disapointment might be the wrong word. How about a little overrated? Yankee fans love him, I get it. I expected this kind of response. However I don't even think you took a look at any of the numbers that I put out there.

 

He wins. Fine. But take a look a some of those wins. He doesn't always pitch great, but his team scores so many runs for him. If he got the same kind of run support that Pettitte got for most of the year, his record wouldn't even be close to what Pettitte has done, in my opinion.

 

Wins are a poor metric for defining an individual pitchers success. For me, that's a fact. For others, it's not. But if you want to look at how well a pitcher has done, I wouldn't look at stuff that he has no control over. He has some control over his wins, but it could be argued how much control a pitcher actually has. There are statistics that are a much better indicator of how well a pitcher has done than a statistics that directly involves how many runs the offense scores for that particular pitcher.

 

I'm well aware of all the stats the difference is I dont think of CMW on Santana's level I never did and I never will. So I personally do not overrate him. In fact prior to the year I projected Wang to have an ERA around 4.20 because he doesnt K anyone so I have been a tad suprised with the year hes had so far. Maybe some luck is involved however can you be lucky for 3 stright years? I think hes a good pitcher. Hes does an outstanding job of pitching late into ball games and he seems to always give the Yankees a chance to win, and with a team like the Yankees if you do that you will win alot of games.

[yankees228]

I'm well aware of all the stats the difference is I dont think of CMW on Santana's level I never did and I never will. So I personally do not overrate him. In fact prior to the year I projected Wang to have an ERA around 4.20 because he doesnt K anyone so I have been a tad suprised with the year hes had so far. Maybe some luck is involved however can you be lucky for 3 stright years? I think hes a good pitcher. Hes does an outstanding job of pitching late into ball games and he seems to always give the Yankees a chance to win' date=' and with a team like the Yankees if you do that you will win alot of games.[/quote']

 

I think you're focusing too much on the word I'm using. Call it whatever you want. Also, I never said he was lucky last year. He was great last year. I'm not arguing that. This year, however, has been a different story, in my opinion.

 

By the way, you said he does an outstanding job of pitching late in ballgames, however he has been awful this year late in games, especially if they're close. So maybe he shouldn't be pitching so late in the game?

 

EDIT: I'm also not sure where you're taking these Santana comparisons from. I never mentioned any other pitcher. I said that some people think he is an ace, and that I disagree with that. But that's not really the point, and it wasn't supposed to be the focus of my post.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I think you're focusing too much on the word I'm using. Call it whatever you want. Also, I never said he was lucky last year. He was great last year. I'm not arguing that. This year, however, has been a different story, in my opinion.

 

By the way, you said he does an outstanding job of pitching late in ballgames, however he has been awful this year late in games, especially if they're close. So maybe he shouldn't be pitching so late in the game?

 

EDIT: I'm also not sure where you're taking these Santana comparisons from. I never mentioned any other pitcher. I said that some people think he is an ace, and that I disagree with that. But that's not really the point, and it wasn't supposed to be the focus of my post.

 

My whole thing about him being lucky is alot of people feel Wang's lack of K's will lead to his downfall. Not many pitchers have been succesful with that low of a K/9. What hes done the past 3 years is quite unprecedented.

 

I said he does a great job of pitching late into ball games. What I mean is he does a great job of getting them into the 7th unlike pitchers like Mike Mussina who when he gets passed the 5th inning hes pretty much running on fumes. I think its valuable on a team with pretty much no middle relief. Alot of times the innings that decide a game are in the middle of the game. If you can by pass the underbelly of the pen you will win alot of games.

 

I think Wang is evolving as a pitcher. His K/9 has been better this year and I think it will continue to get better as he refines his slider and change up.

[yankees228]

My whole thing about him being lucky is alot of people feel Wang's lack of K's will lead to his downfall. Not many pitchers have been succesful with that low of a K/9. What hes done the past 3 years is quite unprecedented.

 

I said he does a great job of pitching late into ball games. What I mean is he does a great job of getting them into the 7th unlike pitchers like Mike Mussina who when he gets passed the 5th inning hes pretty much running on fumes. I think its valuable on a team with pretty much no middle relief. Alot of times the innings that decide a game are in the middle of the game. If you can by pass the underbelly of the pen you will win alot of games.

 

I think Wang is evolving as a pitcher. His K/9 has been better this year and I think it will continue to get better as he refines his slider and change up.

 

I agree with a lot of your points. Unfortunately, whether it's due to his finger nail issue, or whatever, he's also having some control issues. But going away from the numbers for a second, the last bunch of times where I've watched Wang, he just doesn't seem sharp at any point. He seems to be all over the place (in the strike zone), and he seems to not get the amount of grounders that he got last year.

 

Those BAA's that I showed though have to be at least a little bit alarming. That's pretty high for any type of pitcher. I've been impressed with how he's developed his slider as well, but it's almost as if as the slider gets better the sinker loses a little bit of effectiveness. I'm not really sure what to make of it all, but this is just my opinion on the matter. I understand it's a little bit unconventional, so I also understand that I'm not going to find a lot of people to agree with me.

 

By the way, I agree that it's important that he's gives them innings, but it seems like there is a sacrifice with Wang pitching those innings.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I agree with a lot of your points. Unfortunately, whether it's due to his finger nail issue, or whatever, he's also having some control issues. But going away from the numbers for a second, the last bunch of times where I've watched Wang, he just doesn't seem sharp at any point. He seems to be all over the place (in the strike zone), and he seems to not get the amount of grounders that he got last year.

 

Those BAA's that I showed though have to be at least a little bit alarming. That's pretty high for any type of pitcher. I've been impressed with how he's developed his slider as well, but it's almost as if as the slider gets better the sinker loses a little bit of effectiveness. I'm not really sure what to make of it all, but this is just my opinion on the matter. I understand it's a little bit unconventional, so I also understand that I'm not going to find a lot of people to agree with me.

 

By the way, I agree that it's important that he's gives them innings, but it seems like there is a sacrifice with Wang pitching those innings.

 

BAA is alarming to me. In the minors I remember reading scouting reports about how lefties gave CMW trouble and how he would have to develop his change up more if he wanted to get them out. So I think the development of his secondary pitches are key to the rest of his career.

 

I was looking over the splits from last year and this year and I'd have to agree with you a little. He hasnt been as good. But I think some of it can be attributed to his growth as a pitcher. I think hes mixing in more sliders and change ups which is affecting his G/F. But if he can get better as a pitcher in the long run by refining those pitches then so be it because how long can he live on just throwing a sinker? I can only think of one pitcher ever that was great and really only threw one pitch and that was Mariano Rivera AND EVEN NOW Rivera is mixing in many more 2 seamers. As the league sees you more you have to make adjustments.

[yankees228]

BAA is alarming to me. In the minors I remember reading scouting reports about how lefties gave CMW trouble and how he would have to develop his change up more if he wanted to get them out. So I think the development of his secondary pitches are key to the rest of his career.

 

I was looking over the splits from last year and this year and I'd have to agree with you a little. He hasnt been as good. But I think some of it can be attributed to his growth as a pitcher. I think hes mixing in more sliders and change ups which is affecting his G/F. But if he can get better as a pitcher in the long run by refining those pitches then so be it because how long can he live on just throwing a sinker? I can only think of one pitcher ever that was great and really only threw one pitch and that was Mariano Rivera AND EVEN NOW Rivera is mixing in many more 2 seamers. As the league sees you more you have to make adjustments.

 

Speaking of Rivera, maybe a pitch that Wang should considering developing is a bit of a cut fastball. If he could learn to put a little bit of cut on his fastball it would really be a nice addition to his pitch selection, especially when he is looking to get lefties out. When Wang tries to throw that Greg Maddux style run back fastball against lefties over the inside corner, the hitter, if he sees the fastball coming inside, basically knows that it will come back over the plate. However, if he develope another FB which he cut, then that would make a nice counter pitch to his two seamer. That, along with a better developed change, should really help him get the lefties out.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Speaking of Rivera' date=' maybe a pitch that Wang should considering developing is a bit of a cut fastball. If he could learn to put a little bit of cut on his fastball it would really be a nice addition to his pitch selection, especially when he is looking to get lefties out. When Wang tries to throw that Greg Maddux style run back fastball against lefties over the inside corner, the hitter, if he sees the fastball coming inside, basically knows that it will come back over the plate. However, if he develope another FB which he cut, then that would make a nice counter pitch to his two seamer. That, along with a better developed change, should really help him get the lefties out.[/quote']

 

Yea a cutter could certainly help against lefties.

[jacksonianmarch]

sheer idiocy for the most part.

 

Until tonight, Wang had been one of the best pitchers in the AL, hands down. He gives innings, he is consistent and he can be damn near dominant on a nightly basis.

 

If you wish to be concerned, then go off todays's start which was very uncharacteristic or the fact that he seems to flatten out that sinker after 6 innings. In his last start, Molina had him throwing more 4 seamers and changeups to try and get his swing and miss capability up. He is trying things.

 

But in terms of him being a disappointment, cmon now, give me a break. He is still under a 4ERA and gives more innings per start than most any pitcher in baseball (once again, until tonight). If he gets that sinker to stay down, he'll recover what he was prior to tonight.

 

So if you want to cry about one bad start, then cry about the fact that his sinker was belt high all game long. But I wouldnt cry about Wang, I'd take him over nearly anyone in the AL sans Santana.

[mynameisryangomes]

sheer idiocy for the most part.

 

Wang has been crap since the all star break. He has a very high whip and era, if the Yankees are going to the playoffs they need him to pitch a little better than that. Holla at me.

 

YO CHEESE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[yankees228]

sheer idiocy for the most part.

 

Until tonight, Wang had been one of the best pitchers in the AL, hands down. He gives innings, he is consistent and he can be damn near dominant on a nightly basis.

 

If you wish to be concerned, then go off todays's start which was very uncharacteristic or the fact that he seems to flatten out that sinker after 6 innings. In his last start, Molina had him throwing more 4 seamers and changeups to try and get his swing and miss capability up. He is trying things.

 

But in terms of him being a disappointment, cmon now, give me a break. He is still under a 4ERA and gives more innings per start than most any pitcher in baseball (once again, until tonight). If he gets that sinker to stay down, he'll recover what he was prior to tonight.

 

So if you want to cry about one bad start, then cry about the fact that his sinker was belt high all game long. But I wouldnt cry about Wang, I'd take him over nearly anyone in the AL sans Santana.

 

OK, well, first of all, I admitted earlier that 'disapointment' was the wrong word. On top of that, I said numerous times in my initial post that this was not a direct reaction to his start last night. To prove that, I didn't include last night's start in any of the numbers I provided.

 

In your post you're just telling me that he is "one of the best pitchers in the AL". This is something that I definitely disagree with. Lets take a look at some of the guys you're putting Wang ahead of, in terms of this year.

 

Danny Haren: ERA - 2.46, IP - 161, H - 131, B - 43, K - 127

 

Kelvim Escobar: ERA - 2.79, IP - 145, H - 127, B - 45, K - 111

 

Eric Bedard: ERA - 3.09, IP - 154.1, H - 122, BB - 48, SO - 192

 

John Lackey: ERA - 3.11, IP - 153.1, H - 147, BB - 43, K - 123

 

Fausto Carmona: ERA - 3.17, IP - 144.2, H - 141, BB - 42, K - 87

 

Josh Beckett: ERA - 3.31, IP - 138.2, H - 127, BB - 29, K - 132

 

C.C. Sabathia: ERA - 3.52, IP - 174, H - 183, BB - 26, K - 154

 

J. Verlander: ERA - 3.60, IP - 140, H - 119, BB - 49, K - 126

 

J. Vazquez: ERA - 3.64, IP - 150.2, H - 128, BB - 36, K - 138

 

That's nine guys, and it might not even be the whole list. All of these guys, except Sabathia, have less hits than innings pitched. Wang, on the other hand, has more. Five of these guys have ERA's under 3.20. All of these pitchers, except Carmona, have more than 100 K's. I understand Wang is not a strikeout pitcher, but that is just another reason why he is not better than some of these guys. You can also make a case for guys like Daisuke Matsuzaka, Joe Blanton, Roy Halladay, and some others.

 

I was talking to ATG13 about people overrating C.M. Wang. This is a perfect example. You said that you might take him over anybody in the AL except Santana. Give me a break. He's not even close to some of these other guys. Also, I understand that Wang had a good year last year, but this is part of my point. He's regressed. The slider and change may have improved, but the sinker has regressed (or is just not as effective).

 

Maybe you didn't read my post? Maybe you just saw the title and decided that it is "idiocy" to critique C.M. Wang? I don't disagree, he is one of the better pitchers on the Yankees' staff, and quite possibly the best, but maybe this is the problem.

[mynameisryangomes]

in other words, yankees228 is saying, please think before you post!!!

 

YO CHEESE!!!!!!! 1 PEACE

[jacksonianmarch]

He is averaging 6.7IP per start.

 

He is allowing a tad under 4 runs per 9IP.

 

He has the exact same WHIP as he had last yr.

 

He is K'ing 1.2 more per 9 than he did last yr.

 

His OPS against is nearly identical to last season.

 

And this is coming off one of his worst starts of the season. Prior to this one start, his ERA was below what it was last yr, his WHIP was well below what it was last yr, and his OPS against was better than it was last yr. Stop comparing him to others by conventional means. I think he has shown that he is really a unique pitcher and can only be compared to himself.

 

Am I worried about his sinker, yes. It has started to come up later in games and in the last game it didnt get down at all.

 

Am I thinking that he is ready for a huge downfall and I should run in panic? Hell no. This post shows that you truly dont know much about your own pitcher, who finished last season with 19 wins and second in the CY voting. What do you want from the guy? I didnt see any Clemens sucks posts from you after he shat the bed last week, why get on our best pitchers case for a rare flub?

[He Hate Me]

Sorry but that is just completely silly to say he struggled this year.

 

He averages almost 7IP per start and has had only 3 starts where he gave up more than 4, and 2 starts where he lasted less than 6 innings. So that 3.94 ERA is consistent with his pitching this year. To say his numbers are because of a few good outings is just wrong.

[TheKilo]

He is averaging 6.7IP per start.

 

He is allowing a tad under 4 runs per 9IP.

 

He has the exact same WHIP as he had last yr.

 

He is K'ing 1.2 more per 9 than he did last yr.

 

His OPS against is nearly identical to last season.

 

And this is coming off one of his worst starts of the season. Prior to this one start, his ERA was below what it was last yr, his WHIP was well below what it was last yr, and his OPS against was better than it was last yr. Stop comparing him to others by conventional means. I think he has shown that he is really a unique pitcher and can only be compared to himself.

 

Am I worried about his sinker, yes. It has started to come up later in games and in the last game it didnt get down at all.

 

Am I thinking that he is ready for a huge downfall and I should run in panic? Hell no. This post shows that you truly dont know much about your own pitcher, who finished last season with 19 wins and second in the CY voting. What do you want from the guy? I didnt see any Clemens sucks posts from you after he shat the bed last week, why get on our best pitchers case for a rare flub?

 

You wouldn't take any of the guys yankees228 mentioned over Wang? Because that's what it sounds like.

[yankees228]

You wouldn't take any of the guys yankees228 mentioned over Wang? Because that's what it sounds like.

 

That was my point, in response to Jackson's post.

[ORS]

You wouldn't take any of the guys yankees228 mentioned over Wang? Because that's what it sounds like.

I think he's putting the Wang on a pedestal. He idolizes Wang.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think he's putting the Wang on a pedestal. He idolizes Wang.

 

I believe it was you who said both Wang and Cano would be mediocre this season. I think you will have some crow to eat by the end of the yr.

[TheKilo]

I believe it was you who said both Wang and Cano would be mediocre this season. I think you will have some crow to eat by the end of the yr.

 

Cano was awful until mid July.

[jacksonianmarch]

the season doesnt end in July. Cano has been the best hitter in baseball over the past few weeks. The kid turns it on as the season gets going. This is not a bad thing.

[TheKilo]

the season doesnt end in July. Cano has been the best hitter in baseball over the past few weeks. The kid turns it on as the season gets going. This is not a bad thing.

 

You didn't answer my other question, either.

 

I'd rather have Pedroia anyways.

[kreinbihl34]

The season also doesnt start in mid July. An awful first half plus a great second half equals a mediocre season.

[Rdsxmbnt]

eh not really, if your really bad in the first half and then really good in the 2nd half then you have a mediocre season. In the case of Robinson J. Cano he was meh (700+ OPS) and is very (very) good right now in the 2nd half so he'll probaly end up having a good season which he is.

[jacksonianmarch]

You wouldn't take any of the guys yankees228 mentioned over Wang? Because that's what it sounds like.

 

I'd say that Wang is on their level. He may not have their propensity for utter dominance, but he does dominate in his own way and on a regular basis.

[jacksonianmarch]

eh not really' date=' if your really bad in the first half and then really good in the 2nd half then you have a mediocre season. In the case of Robinson J. Cano he was meh (700+ OPS) and is very (very) good right now in the 2nd half so he'll probaly end up having a good season which he is.[/quote']

 

huh? So if a guy hits .340 like Cano did last season based mostly upon being white hot in the last 2 months, he didnt have a good season? WTF are you smoking?

[yankees228]

I'd say that Wang is on their level. He may not have their propensity for utter dominance' date=' but he does dominate in his own way and on a regular basis.[/quote']

 

Yet he hasn't had as good a season as any of those guys, and, to be honest, it's not even that close.