Cabrera, Willis rumors

[Cityofchampions33]

ESPN is reporting a rumor that would send Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to Boston for prospects Clay Buccholz, Jon Lester, Craig Hansen, and Jacoby Ellsbury.

 

No thanks. This trade makes no real sense as we'd have a logjam at the corners, unless we are trading Lowell in anotehr deal. Also it is waaay too steep of a price IMO as Cabrera, while amazing has put on 100 LBs and thus has limited range, not to mention Dontrelle s***ing the bed this season.

[CrespoBlows]

ESPN is reporting a rumor that would send Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to Boston for prospects Clay Buccholz, Jon Lester, Craig Hansen, and Jacoby Ellsbury.

 

No thanks. This trade makes no real sense as we'd have a logjam at the corners, unless we are trading Lowell in anotehr deal. Also it is waaay too steep of a price IMO as Cabrera, while amazing has put on 100 LBs and thus has limited range, not to mention Dontrelle s***ing the bed this season.

 

Link?

[example1]

ESPN is reporting a rumor that would send Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to Boston for prospects Clay Buccholz, Jon Lester, Craig Hansen, and Jacoby Ellsbury.

 

No thanks. This trade makes no real sense as we'd have a logjam at the corners, unless we are trading Lowell in anotehr deal. Also it is waaay too steep of a price IMO as Cabrera, while amazing has put on 100 LBs and thus has limited range, not to mention Dontrelle s***ing the bed this season.

 

It doesn't 'make a whole lot of sense... although Willis is better than he's been recently. My guess is that the payroll disparity between teams like Boston and FLA extend to pitching coaches and mechanics analysis as well, no? So Willis would probably do better.

 

Cabrera, uhhh, yes please. 100 LBs...? Sounds like he's due for a workout plan and a larger contract. Someone get on him for being heavy and watch his weight plummet back to its normal weight.

 

I think Lester, Hansen, BOWDEN and Ellsbury would be a more reasonable deal. If there is a way to pull this deal off without dealing Buchholz that would be great. I don't really believe the rumor either, unless there was something the Sox could do with Youk or Lowell.

 

This to me sounds like the most logical solution for what it would take to get Cabrera and Willis. I seriously doubt the Sox sell their untouchable prospects in one swoop.

[CrespoBlows]

You have to do this deal. I'd try to keep Buchholz out of it, but Miguel Cabrera will be one of the greatest players in MLB history if he stays healthy. Keep in mind that he plays 82 games in a football stadium, where the humidity is 100%, just about every day. I don't care if he weighs 300 pounds, it's not stopping him from putting absolutely massive numbers. His WARP this year is 10.7, it was 11.6 in 2006.

 

Look at the guys on his comparable list:

 

Hank Aaron (959)

Orlando Cepeda (933)

Frank Robinson (925)

Joe Medwick (920)

Mickey Mantle (914)

Ken Griffey (907)

Andruw Jones (907)

Hal Trosky (905)

Vladimir Guerrero (900)

Al Kaline (900)

 

You see one guy on there, that you wouldn't want?

[KeepTheFaith1229]

You have to do this deal. I'd try to keep Buchholz out of it, but Miguel Cabrera will be one of the greatest players in MLB history if he stays healthy. Keep in mind that he plays 82 games in a football stadium, where the humidity is 100%, just about every day. I don't care if he weighs 300 pounds, it's not stopping him from putting absolutely massive numbers. His WARP this year is 10.7, it was 11.6 in 2006.

 

Look at the guys on his comparable list:

 

Hank Aaron (959)

Orlando Cepeda (933)

Frank Robinson (925)

Joe Medwick (920)

Mickey Mantle (914)

Ken Griffey (907)

Andruw Jones (907)

Hal Trosky (905)

Vladimir Guerrero (900)

Al Kaline (900)

 

You see one guy on there, that you wouldn't want?

 

I wouldn't want Andruw Jones at the moment.

 

[Rdsxmbnt]

idk, 3 years ago if you told me we could get Dontrelle Willis I'd be estatic, but lately he really isnt that good and grossly overrated. He's an ok strikeout pitcher with meh walk rates, his 2005 season his walk rate was excellent but since then its on the rise to the point this year where he looks like he'll get bombed in the AL. I think its somewhat reasonable for Lester to post similar numbers that Willis has done in his past 2 years shortly in the majors. So it comes down if your willing to trade Buchholz and Ellsbury for Cabrera and i dont really know, if that weight thing is true thats really bad. I have a bad feeling the Marlins would make out extremely well in this deal even as good as Cabrera is.

[example1]

You have to do this deal. I'd try to keep Buchholz out of it, but Miguel Cabrera will be one of the greatest players in MLB history if he stays healthy. Keep in mind that he plays 82 games in a football stadium, where the humidity is 100%, just about every day. I don't care if he weighs 300 pounds, it's not stopping him from putting absolutely massive numbers. His WARP this year is 10.7, it was 11.6 in 2006.

 

Look at the guys on his comparable list:

 

Hank Aaron (959)

Orlando Cepeda (933)

Frank Robinson (925)

Joe Medwick (920)

Mickey Mantle (914)

Ken Griffey (907)

Andruw Jones (907)

Hal Trosky (905)

Vladimir Guerrero (900)

Al Kaline (900)

 

You see one guy on there, that you wouldn't want?

 

Then the question becomes who do the Sox turn to for starters in the next few years? I kow Beckett and Matsuzaka, but beyond that they would certainly still need answers. I would guess that at this point the Red Sox have agreed with themselves that Buchholz is untouchable. If they give up Buchholz, then also selling Lester and Ellsbury would be too much. At this point I would rather have Buchholz than Willis.

 

It is interesting, and I wouldn't hate the Sox for pulling this deal off.

[example1]

idk' date=' 3 years ago if you told me we could get Dontrelle Willis I'd be estatic, but lately he really isnt that good and grossly overrated. He's an ok strikeout pitcher with meh walk rates, his 2005 season his walk rate was excellent but since then its on the rise to the point this year where he looks like he'll get bombed in the AL. I think its somewhat reasonable for Lester to post similar numbers that Willis has done in his past 2 years shortly in the majors. So it comes down if your willing to trade Buchholz and Ellsbury for Cabrera and i dont really know, if that weight thing is true thats really bad. I have a bad feeling the Marlins would make out extremely well in this deal even as good as Cabrera is.[/quote']

 

Because Cabrera is so good this would be a good deal for both teams. Cabrera isn't a player who is going to go to a team and just NOT produce. Everyone who watches him puts him in the top 10 hitters in baseball, at such a young age. He would immediately give the Sox a big 3 instead of a big 2, and there just aren't that many players who can provide that immediately. Perhaps the Sox could deal Lowell (plus, say, all of his contract) for a few young prospects say with MN or COL and replenish the system if they pulled the trigger.

[CrespoBlows]

Then the question becomes who do the Sox turn to for starters in the next few years? I kow Beckett and Matsuzaka, but beyond that they would certainly still need answers. I would guess that at this point the Red Sox have agreed with themselves that Buchholz is untouchable. If they give up Buchholz, then also selling Lester and Ellsbury would be too much. At this point I would rather have Buchholz than Willis.

 

It is interesting, and I wouldn't hate the Sox for pulling this deal off.

 

Beckett

Matsuzaka

Papelbon

Willis

Wakefield/Gabbard/free agent

 

Nathan

Okajima

Delcarmen

Donnelly

[example1]

Beckett

Matsuzaka

Papelbon

Willis

Wakefield/Gabbard/free agent

 

Nathan

Okajima

Delcarmen

Donnelly

 

 

Where does Nathan come from?

[CrespoBlows]

Where does Nathan come from?

 

Free agency.

[Rdsxmbnt]

do the Marlins get contracted after making a deal like this?

[example1]

Free agency.

 

in '08 (assuming the Twinkies pick up his option)...

[CrespoBlows]

Varitek - $10,000,000

Youkilis - $400,000

Pedroia - $400,000

Lugo - $9,000,000

Cabrera - $13,000,000 (est.)

Ramirez - $20,000,000

Crisp - $5,000,000

Drew - $14,000,000

Ortiz - $12,000,000

 

Beckett - $10,000,000

Matsuzaka - $8,000,000

Papelbon - $400,000

Willis - $8,000,000 (est.)

Gabbard - $400,000

 

Cordero - $10,000,000

Okajima - $1,000,000

Donnelly - $2,000,000

Delcarmen - $400,000

 

Gives you about $25 million to fill the rest of the holes. I wonder what it would take if Dontrelle Willis wasn't involved?

[ksushi]

I think this rumor is total bunk. No way does Theo trade Clay. I would love to have Cabrera, and I think he might be destined to land in Boston sooner or later, with his contract expiring the same year as Ramirez, but I think at this point I wanna see what Bucholz can do in our rotation. Hes a beast.

[CrespoBlows]

in '08 (assuming the Twinkies pick up his option)...

 

My mistake.

 

Cordero, or Rivera? (The latter has a very small chance of happening)

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Nate is going to NYY for in the neighborhood of $50 million.

[CrespoBlows]

We could try Okajima for one year, and then go for K-Rod.

[example1]

We could try Okajima for one year' date=' and then go for K-Rod.[/quote']

 

Or we could hope that Okajima, Delcarmen, Hansen, Hagadone, Cox or someone else comes along that can be MLB average.

 

In any case, your main point was taken, Papelbon could become a starter.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

I'm going to go out on a limb here...but the more I see of Paps...the more I think he's destined to close. I'm not sure how effective a starter he'd really be. Sure, he'd be better than average...but he'd be nothing like he is coming out of the 'pen. Paps has two plus pitches...a closer can get by on that and ride those two out to an amazing career. A starter doesn't usually have that luxury.

 

I like Paps in the bullpen from here on out. I don't want them to move them into the rotation. It's easier to get a formidable starter from somewhere than it is to get a lockdown closer.

[msubulldogs21]

I'm going to go out on a limb here...but the more I see of Paps...the more I think he's destined to close. I'm not sure how effective a starter he'd really be. Sure, he'd be better than average...but he'd be nothing like he is coming out of the 'pen. Paps has two plus pitches...a closer can get by on that and ride those two out to an amazing career. A starter doesn't usually have that luxury.

 

I like Paps in the bullpen from here on out. I don't want them to move them into the rotation. It's easier to get a formidable starter from somewhere than it is to get a lockdown closer.

 

I agree 100%.

 

You don't find many elite closers. We've got one, and I don't want to see us do anything to mess it up.

[example1]

I agree 100%.

 

You don't find many elite closers. We've got one, and I don't want to see us do anything to mess it up.

 

You don't find elite closers like Papelbon, it's true.

 

The thing is, you only need one closer, but you need 5 starters. So while it is harder to find very good closers, there are fewer spots for them and therefore fewer who are established.

 

The thinking is that there are pitchers out there who can do the job of closer. Look at some of the closers out there now. Wickman? Todd Jones? Ryan Dempster? most of these guys are successful most of the time, but I wouldn't say they are elite by any stretch. I think that the Sox think they can get a really good second option that would allow them to mold Papelbon into a dominant starter.

 

I don't know if it is going to work, or whether they will be able to get someone. I would really be happy either way. Papelbon's numbers would obviously go up over the course of the season. I think it is reasonable to expect that Papelbon could be a 3.60 ERA, 200 ip pitcher. Stretch his stuff out over 7-8 innings and I think you're looking at a pitcher who could be as effective as Buerhle has been the past 3 years. Those guys don't grow on trees.

 

Papelbon is a hell of a pitcher, in any case. I thought it was suspicious that he suddenly was losing sleep about wanting to close when the sox had such a huge hole in that position. The Sox hoped someone else would step up, nobody did, so he was the best option.

[msubulldogs21]

You don't find elite closers like Papelbon, it's true.

 

The thing is, you only need one closer, but you need 5 starters. So while it is harder to find very good closers, there are fewer spots for them and therefore fewer who are established.

 

The thinking is that there are pitchers out there who can do the job of closer. Look at some of the closers out there now. Wickman? Todd Jones? Ryan Dempster? most of these guys are successful most of the time, but I wouldn't say they are elite by any stretch. I think that the Sox think they can get a really good second option that would allow them to mold Papelbon into a dominant starter.

 

I don't know if it is going to work, or whether they will be able to get someone. I would really be happy either way. Papelbon's numbers would obviously go up over the course of the season. I think it is reasonable to expect that Papelbon could be a 3.60 ERA, 200 ip pitcher. Stretch his stuff out over 7-8 innings and I think you're looking at a pitcher who could be as effective as Buerhle has been the past 3 years. Those guys don't grow on trees.

 

Papelbon is a hell of a pitcher, in any case. I thought it was suspicious that he suddenly was losing sleep about wanting to close when the sox had such a huge hole in that position. The Sox hoped someone else would step up, nobody did, so he was the best option.

 

If we went out and got a 2nd rate closer or just someone who could get us by, I think the majority of the fan base would be up in arms and wanting Papelbon back in the pen when Closer X started blowing saves, especially against a team like the Yankees.

 

Also, say we move Papelbon to the rotation and get somebody like Dempster or Jones. Do you REALLY feel 100% confident that he will convert that series clinching save in October when we have a 2-1 lead in the bottom of the 9th? Like everyone else, I feel that confidence with Papelbon and there just aren't many guys out there who are an exclamation point at the end of a game like he is.

 

Moving him to the rotation would be very intriguing, but since he loves doing what he does and it's working great I wouldn't change a thing.

[CrespoBlows]

If we went out and got a 2nd rate closer or just someone who could get us by, I think the majority of the fan base would be up in arms and wanting Papelbon back in the pen when Closer X started blowing saves, especially against a team like the Yankees.

 

Also, say we move Papelbon to the rotation and get somebody like Dempster or Jones. Do you REALLY feel 100% confident that he will convert that series clinching save in October when we have a 2-1 lead in the bottom of the 9th? Like everyone else, I feel that confidence with Papelbon and there just aren't many guys out there who are an exclamation point at the end of a game like he is.

 

Moving him to the rotation would be very intriguing, but since he loves doing what he does and it's working great I wouldn't change a thing.

 

Playing devil's advocate, but do you feel confident that Kason Gabbard/Tim Wakefield/Curt Schilling will be able to get the ball to Papelbon with a 2-1 lead?

 

I think that if we have a guy in our organization who can start, and start very effectively, then his value is enhanced in a position in which he gets the most outs.

[msubulldogs21]

Playing devil's advocate' date=' but do you feel confident that Kason Gabbard/Tim Wakefield/Curt Schilling will be able to get the ball to Papelbon with a 2-1 lead?[/quote']

 

Honestly, that can be iffy at times. But what's to stop us from going out and getting better starting pitching in free agency? There's no chance that we would move Papelbon to the rotation in the middle of the season, and in the off-season among other things hopefully we will sign a good starting pitcher.

 

Has anybody thought about Zambrano? Think we might go after him?

[schillingouttheks]

Zambrano or Sabathia sounds good to me.

[CrespoBlows]

Honestly' date=' that can be iffy at times. But what's to stop us from going out and getting better starting pitching in free agency? There's no chance that we would move Papelbon to the rotation in the middle of the season, and in the off-season among other things hopefully we will sign a good starting pitcher.[/quote']

 

Any change will definitely take place in March. There are some quality closer options out there. Cordero would be a great fit, and would allow us to fill two holes.

 

We could always sign Rivera.

 

 

 

Has anybody thought about Zambrano? Think we might go after him?

 

I think he winds back up in Chicago. I don't like his 4.0 BB/9 ratio, but I think we should consider it. (Not at $15,000,000, however)

[msubulldogs21]

Zambrano or Sabathia sounds good to me.

 

Sabathia's not a free agent this year though. I'm not sure when his contract is up, but I'd definitely rather have him than Zambrano.

 

I, too think Zambrano stays with the Cubs. They're going to have to shell out the cash to keep him, but he's the ace of that staff and he will probably stay in Chicago.

[kreinbihl34]

I'm pretty sure CC is. The needed to extend Pronk, Westbrook, and CC. The got the first two, but the last is headed towards a Zito paycheck.

[msubulldogs21]

I just looked it up and Sabathia is a FA after 08.

 

With his contract most likely similar to Zito's, it makes you wonder if Cleveland will let him walk.