April 27th @ New York

[ORS]

Jeez. What's your take ORS, I don't remember you commenting on Jacoby.

 

Is it too early to bring him up by, say, the all-star break?

My take. He's the best total package CF in the Sox system from top to bottom. That said, they've got some money and commitment tied into the current guys. But if he keeps hitting .440+ and being a terror on the basepaths while they keep struggling, I don't see how they can ignore him.

[MANNYHOF24]

You spoke too soon... lol.

 

And no, WMP is not a better player than Crisp. Crisp is a better contact hitter, better fielder, has great speed, and is smart on the base paths, and has a great work ethic. All that Pena has going for him is his extreme power. Would I love it if WMP could learn how to be an average fielder and learn to hit? Of course. I just realize its not going to happen, at least not with the pressure in Boston. He needs to be in the minors.

 

Pena hit .300 last year, he should play more than Crisp. Crespo is right, Coco is just not that good.

[example1]

My take. He's the best total package CF in the Sox system from top to bottom. That said' date=' they've got some money and commitment tied into the current guys. But if he keeps hitting .440+ and being a terror on the basepaths while they keep struggling, I don't see how they can ignore him.[/quote']

 

Sounds about right. Currently they don't need him, but I would be upset if he's hitting above .400 in a very competitive AA spot and they bring up David Murphy or someone like that if/when an injury happens.

[MANNYHOF24]

My take. He's the best total package CF in the Sox system from top to bottom. That said' date=' they've got some money and commitment tied into the current guys. But if he keeps hitting .440+ and being a terror on the basepaths while they keep struggling, I don't see how they can ignore him.[/quote']

 

Agreed. I have to get down to Portland and try to watch a game. Preferably when Clay is pitching. That would be fun to watch.

[example1]

Pena hit .300 last year' date=' he should play more than Crisp. Crespo is right, Coco is just not that good.[/quote']

 

I don't think we've seen either of them play uninjured and comfortable enough to make this determination. All things being equal, I'm taking Crisp and his fielding in a very important fielding position.

[TedWilliams101]

In Coco's first 3 season he put up good numbers, and he's makes good contact, has a great glove, and great speed. He didn't do so well last year cause of his injury. Now again, all that WMP has going for him is power. Compare WMP career numbers to Coco's. Ya, I'll take Coco. Plus, last year was the abnormal year for Coco, as he couldn't pull himself together after the injury. WMP's great year last year was abnormal. He has never put up numbers close to that. Now this year, other than chris ray leaving a fastball in WMP wheel house with the bases loaded, WMP has sucked terrible. He can't hit. Period. Now you please tell me how you think WMP is a better player?

 

Yes, the fact that Coco is an extemely good CF vs. WMP is terrible, is a BIG difference. You want a fast CF with a good glove. WMP is as far from that as you can get vs. Coco who I believe is as good as any CF in the AL.

[yeszir]

Agreed. I have to get down to Portland and try to watch a game. Preferably when Clay is pitching. That would be fun to watch.

Not many people can say this.

[example1]

Come on DiceK. Just get Cano. He really uncorks some bad looking pitches at times. Other pitches look great. It's a weird combination.

[CrespoBlows]

Crisp is a better contact hitter,

 

Doesn't mean that he's a better hitter.

 

 

better fielder

 

Barely.

 

Pena - +0 FRAA

Crisp - +1 FRAA

 

has great speed, and is smart on the base paths

 

He's a 70% SB success rate. That's not a good ratio.

 

and has a great work ethic.

 

How is this relevant? David Eckstein has a great work ethic, that doesn't make him a better player than Albert Pujols, or Gary Sheffield.

 

All that Pena has going for him is his extreme power.

 

He also hit .300 last year.

 

Would I love it if WMP could learn how to be an average fielder and learn to hit? Of course.

 

I mean, I would get this if he never hit .300, but he kinda did last year. So, what I don't get is why people write him off after 25 AB's.

 

I just realize its not going to happen, at least not with the pressure in Boston. He needs to be in the minors.

 

He kinda did it last year, BTW.

[MANNYHOF24]

Not many people can say this.

 

Very true.

[example1]

Nice pitch DiceK.

 

He's got Cano 3 times tonight.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Odd outing to say the least. 5 good innings, 1 awful

[MANNYHOF24]

All things considered I would take that almost everythime against the Yankees.

[ORS]

In Coco's first 3 season he put up good numbers, and he's makes good contact, has a great glove, and great speed. He didn't do so well last year cause of his injury. Now again, all that WMP has going for him is power. Compare WMP career numbers to Coco's. Ya, I'll take Coco. Plus, last year was the abnormal year for Coco, as he couldn't pull himself together after the injury. WMP's great year last year was abnormal. He has never put up numbers close to that. Now this year, other than chris ray leaving a fastball in WMP wheel house with the bases loaded, WMP has sucked terrible. He can't hit. Period. Now you please tell me how you think WMP is a better player?

 

Yes, the fact that Coco is an extemely good CF vs. WMP is terrible, is a BIG difference. You want a fast CF with a good glove. WMP is as far from that as you can get vs. Coco who I believe is as good as any CF in the AL.

Here's what's posted above, but editted for brevity:

 

Ignore last year because it doesn't fit my rant.

[TedWilliams101]

And again, one of the reason's why Pena did so well last year was because the pitchers haden't seen him before. AL pitchers have now adjusted to him and learned how to pitch to him... guess it shows, huh.

Coco just slightly better of a fielder.... ARE YOU WATCHING PENA? For outfield, you really need to pay more attention to they're actual playing than just stats... Coco has the speed and glove to make game winning catchs and speed up to balls that might normally fall in. Pena doesn't. Plus, coco hasn't made bonehead errors like Pena. I don't know how you honestly think Coco is just a tad bit better of a fielder than Pena. What they hell game are you watching.

[TedWilliams101]

No, the above poster said that WMP is better because he had 1 abnormal year last year where he put up good numbers. Right now is the real WMP. He thinks that WMP is the 2006 numbers type of guy, yet says that Crisp is the 2006 type of guy while completely ignoring the fact that he put up great numbers the previous three years and played while injured last year. My point is not to ignore last year, but look at the career stats, and more importantly, the player. WMP has shown no ability to hit offspeed pitches, or have any fielding skills. Coco is the polar opposite.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Coco vs. Pena hitting is arguable:

 

Pena's career line: .259 .314 .478 .792, 103 OPS+

Coco's career line: .281 .327 .413 .740, 96 OPS+

[ORS]

And again' date=' one of the reason's why Pena did so well last year was because the pitchers haden't seen him before. AL pitchers have now adjusted to him and learned how to pitch to him... guess it shows, huh.[/quote']

No, not again. This is wrong. The advantage is to the pitcher in a first time matchup. There were 3 years of MLB scouting on WMP before last year. Every pitcher knew the holes in his swing. This is you trying to create an excuse that doesn't exist.

[example1]

Coco vs. Pena hitting is arguable:

 

Pena's career line: .259 .314 .478 .792, 103 OPS+

Coco's career line: .281 .327 .413 .740, 96 OPS+

 

On this team you should always go with the higher OBP in my opinion. These guys can score runs if you just get on base.

 

Pena also has speed, though not as much as Crisp.

 

EDIT: both OBPs are pretty pisspoor. We're trying to choose between a .314 and a .327, one a middle of the order guy (yuck) and one a top of the order guy (yuck). The fact that their SLGs are similar is odd, given Pena's supposed power.

[TedWilliams101]

Last year pitchers were throwing him tons of fastballs. This year pitchers have thrown nothing but offspeed pitches (such as curveballs in the dirt). That makes me believe they have adjusted to him. You also can't ignore the results.

[CrespoBlows]

Compare WMP career numbers to Coco's. Ya, I'll take Coco. Plus, last year was the abnormal year for Coco, as he couldn't pull himself together after the injury.

 

Pena's career numbers are better than Coco's, BTW.

 

 

WMP's great year last year was abnormal. He has never put up numbers close to that.

 

It's an abnormal, because you don't like the player. If you want to play that game, I'll call Coco's 16 HR's a fluke, as well.

 

Now this year, other than chris ray leaving a fastball in WMP wheel house with the bases loaded, WMP has sucked terrible.

 

2007 EQA:

 

Crisp: .218

Pena: .247

 

 

He can't hit. Period.

 

He did EQA .287 last year, which is pretty good.

 

 

 

quote]Now you please tell me how you think WMP is a better player?

 

Career OPS:

 

Pena - .792

Crisp - .740

 

Last three years EQA:

 

Pena - .277

Crisp - .275

 

 

Take in the fact, that Pena was rushed to the bigs his first two years.

 

Yes, the fact that Coco is an extemely good CF

 

He's awful in CF. He's -19 runs below average for his career.

 

vs. WMP is terrible, is a BIG difference.

 

Pena is +9 for his career.

 

You want a fast CF with a good glove.

 

I think of Ichiro, not Crisp, when I hear this.

 

WMP is as far from that as you can get vs. Coco who I believe is as good as any CF in the AL.

 

You're an absolute idiot if you believe that.

[example1]

Last year pitchers were throwing him tons of fastballs. This year pitchers have thrown nothing but offspeed pitches (such as curveballs in the dirt). That makes me believe they have adjusted to him. You also can't ignore the results.

 

But you can overvalue particular results, like his first 20 at bats in a season where he could have 3 or 400.

[ORS]

On this team you should always go with the higher OBP in my opinion. These guys can score runs if you just get on base.

 

Pena also has speed, though not as much as Crisp.

Did you look at the numbers before stating that? Is .013 points of OBP worth giving up .055 points of SLG? I know OBP rates higher, but it's at about 1.7:1, not 4:1.

[example1]

Was that a cry of joy or pain I just heard from red sox nation as Timlin enters the game?

 

Pain? That's what I thought.

[CrespoBlows]

And again, one of the reason's why Pena did so well last year was because the pitchers haden't seen him before. AL pitchers have now adjusted to him and learned how to pitch to him... guess it shows, huh.

Coco just slightly better of a fielder.... ARE YOU WATCHING PENA? For outfield, you really need to pay more attention to they're actual playing than just stats... Coco has the speed and glove to make game winning catchs and speed up to balls that might normally fall in. Pena doesn't. Plus, coco hasn't made bonehead errors like Pena. I don't know how you honestly think Coco is just a tad bit better of a fielder than Pena. What they hell game are you watching.

 

If this were true, the stats would back it up. Pena is an awful RF, but is a fairly good CF.

 

It doesn't, so just concede the point. Your perception is way off in this instance.

[TedWilliams101]

How can you not see that Coco is 100x better in CF than WMP. Are we watching the same games? Have I been watching a different CF making spectacular catches night after night, while the guy I 'believe' is WMP misplaying balls for HR, etc. Am I really seeing things...

[ORS]

Last year pitchers were throwing him tons of fastballs. This year pitchers have thrown nothing but offspeed pitches (such as curveballs in the dirt). That makes me believe they have adjusted to him. You also can't ignore the results.

Unless you can show me a number, I'm going to go ahead and say you are wrong, because my memory tells me he saw plenty of junk in the dirt. And, the results you can't ignore are in 25 ABs. I can make David Eckstein look like Babe Ruth and vice versa given the right 25 AB window, so take it with a grain of salt.

[MANNYHOF24]

How can you not see that Coco is 100x better in CF than WMP. Are we watching the same games? Have I been watching a different CF making spectacular catches night after night' date=' while the guy I 'believe' is WMP misplaying balls for HR, etc. Am I really seeing things...[/quote']

 

Willy Mo is a decent CF, he makes the occasionaly screw up, but I think his bat adds much need punch to the bottom of the lineup. Your assesment of Willy Mo is not accurate.

[Rdsxmbnt]

is it just me or does Abreu seem like a stiff out there who waits for walks

[ORS]

TIMMEH!!