$40M For What?

[CrespoBlows]

I beg to differ. Ask 90% of other teams if they think this team is loaded and they will say "Yes". Do you think the Dodgers liked losing their best hitter to the Red Sox over the offseason? Do you really think that Kevin Millar was some "special" hall-of-fame type player? I certainly do not. They hit a lot of HRs that season and scored a lot of runs. More than any team since the 1927 Yankees. Do you expect that type of production to just come around based on average or even above-average acquisations by the FO?

 

The Red Sox team in 2007 is certaintly not loaded. Loaded teams do not have shaky middle relief, and shaky set-up men. Loaded teams do not start Julian Tavarez as their fifth starter. Loaded teams do not have Jason Varitek, and Coco Crisp in their lineup. Lowell and Pedroia are average hitters as well. The Red Sox are a good team, but they are very flawed.

 

Jason Varitek OPS+, 2006: 85

Mike Lowell OPS+, 2006 : 106

Coco Crisp OPS+, 2006: 80

 

Again, I like the team, but they have a little work to do.

[Dana Kiecker]

I give up.. what does DK's future years have to do with this discussion example 1 ?

[RedSoxRooter]

Good post. By the same logic I have the teams as just about equal. Lowe in 04 was horrible inconsistent and unpredictable. Tavarez is the same. Wakefield then and wakefield now are about equal (who knows what you'll get either day?)

 

The real question is each team's top 3.

 

Schilling 04 > Schilling 06

Pedro = Matsuzaka (with a big + for the fact that Matsuzaka is 26 and signed for 6 more years... not something to be forgotten in this discussion).

Beckett > Arroyo (which pitcher do you think most teams would want? Who would you want pitching in a big game?)

 

In those terms I see the pitching to be equal with a slight edge to the 06 team given its youth and long-term commitments to the team. Good post though CrespoBlows.

 

You mean the '07 team, right?

[example1]

I give up.. what does DK's future years have to do with this discussion example 1 ?

 

Well, we're talking about what shape this team is in for the money it spent, arent we? I think that 140m well spent includes the ability to have that talent carry over into future years. If you look at it on a purely-this-year basis then of course you're going to criticize how the FO spent its money. However, the FO doesn' tlook at its spending that way, and neither does any other FO.

[example1]

You mean the '07 team' date=' right?[/quote']

 

 

Yes, I fixed it. Thanks.

[CrespoBlows]

Pedro = Matsuzaka (with a big + for the fact that Matsuzaka is 26 and signed for 6 more years... not something to be forgotten in this discussion).

 

Overall, you're right. Matsuzaka's deal is a big plus for the future of the team, but it doesn't have lot of strength when talking about this year. I also don't think Schilling is the ace of the staff, anymore. If you're going to arrange it this way, I would have Matsuzaka as an upgrade over Martinez.

 

Beckett > Arroyo (which pitcher do you think most teams would want? Who would you want pitching in a big game?)

 

If you're comparing these two, I agree. I would put Beckett over Arroyo.

 

In those terms I see the pitching to be equal with a slight edge to the 06 team given its youth and long-term commitments to the team. Good post though CrespoBlows.

 

Speaking strictly about 2007, would you still have this overall pitching staff (bullpen included) over 2004?

[example1]

The Red Sox team in 2007 is certaintly not loaded. Loaded teams do not have shaky middle relief, and shaky set-up men. Loaded teams do not start Julian Tavarez as their fifth starter. Loaded teams do not have Jason Varitek, and Coco Crisp in their lineup. Lowell and Pedroia are average hitters as well. The Red Sox are a good team, but they are very flawed.

 

Jason Varitek OPS+, 2006: 85

Mike Lowell OPS+, 2006 : 106

Coco Crisp OPS+, 2006: 80

 

Again, I like the team, but they have a little work to do.

 

Show me one "loaded" team in the majors right now then. In fact, show me one "loaded team" in the past 5 years. A team without a single questionmark. Please, I defy you.

[CrespoBlows]

Show me one "loaded" team in the majors right now then. In fact' date=' show me one "loaded team" in the past 5 years. A team without a single questionmark. Please, I defy you.[/quote']

 

You called the Red Sox loaded. Not me. Why exactly do I have to show you a loaded team? Does it give your statement any more merit?

 

I'm not saying any team is loaded, maybe the 2005 White Sox, maybe.

[example1]

Speaking strictly about 2007' date=' would you still have this overall pitching staff (bullpen included) over 2004?[/quote']

 

Yes.

 

I am actually confident that this bullpen will be very solid. I think Timlin is going to come back and be a DOWNGRADE to the current pen. I like the set up of having 3 lefties and I have been impressed with the work of Lopez and Romero, both in the past and so far this season. I see no reason to think that Lopez can't do what Mike Myers did. I see no reason to think romero can't do what Embree did, and I see no reason to think that Donnelley can't do what Timlin did.

 

Papelbon is the ONLY shut-down reliever that either of those teams had. Foulke was a gamble every time he was on the mound, although the results were tremendous.

 

I don't think it is out of the question to say that the Yankees (the sox main rival for the ALE for the next few years) will be looking for a guy like Papelbon once they lose Rivera.

 

As far as starters go, I would rather have this group in the playoffs. If the sox get there (and right now they are as well-constituted as anyone in the AL East) they have a great staff to throw at other teams. The sheer power that Schilling, Beckett and Matsuzaka bring to the table is unbelievable. Plus, Matsuzaka seriously has a rubber arm. This guy has tremendous mechanics and he will have the ability to come in on short rest to shut down teams if needed. I'm not advocating it, but certainly in a game 7 situation no team is going to like to see Matsuzaka coming in from the pen, or pitching on 3 days rest.

 

The 04 team certainly wasn't able to do that. We all shared that feeling of dread when Pedro came in in game 7 agsint the yankees. I wouldn't feel that way this year.

 

So yeah, I'd rather have Schlling, Beckett and Matsuzaka in the playoffs than Pedro, Schilling and Lowe/Arroyo/Wakefield.

[MANNYHOF24]

You called the Red Sox loaded. Not me. Why exactly do I have to show you a loaded team? Does it give your statement any more merit?

 

I'm not saying any team is loaded, maybe the 2005 White Sox, maybe.

 

On Paper the 2005 Yanks were loaded coming into the season.

[example1]

You called the Red Sox loaded. Not me. Why exactly do I have to show you a loaded team? Does it give your statement any more merit?

 

I'm not saying any team is loaded, maybe the 2005 White Sox, maybe.

 

I argued that the sox were not-not loaded (if that makes sense) in response to someone else saying they were not loaded. You further defined loaded by saying "Loaded teams do not have shaky middle relief, and shaky set-up men. Loaded teams do not start Julian Tavarez as their fifth starter. Loaded teams do not have Jason Varitek, and Coco Crisp in their lineup" as if all of those players had already played a full season and we knew what they were going to do. The Red Sox did not pick up Romero, Pineiro, Okijima and Donnelly to s*** the bed, despite what you might think, and as far as I can see they haven't yet done that.

 

I think by those definitions you would be hard pressed to find an example of ANY loaded teams, thus making the word "loaded" a useless one indeed.

 

You point to the 05 White Sox, but before the 05 season nobody would have called them "loaded". Wasn't Dustin Hermenson their closer? They ran ass-backwards into Bobby Jenks and certainly didn't see him as their shut down closer at this time of year in 05. Overall, your expectations are unrealistic and defeatest in my opinion. You're not letting the season play itself out, but you're declaring that this team isn't "loaded" because there are questions about its bullpen. Have you looked at Scott Podsednik's numbers from 2005 when talking about what Crisp will or will not do?

 

Do you think he can score more than 80 Runs, hit more than .290, have more than a .700 OPS? Do you think he can hit more than 0 HR, drive in more than 25 RBI? So that is the "Loaded" 2005 White Sox starting CF.

 

How about Varitek vs. Pierzynski? Can Varitek potentially (even in his decline) beat these numbers?

 

.257/.308/.420 (.728 OPS), with 18 HR and 56 RBI, scoring 61 Runs? That certainly doesn't blow Varitek out of the water, does it? The White Sox of that year had a .747 team OPS. The Sox of LAST year had a .786 OPS.

 

So are you saying that the White Sox were "loaded" in 05 still?

 

i agree, they might have been by the end of the season, but your definition of "loaded" as being a perfect team, with all bullpen and setup options in place, and without a CF or C who hits poorly just won't do and should be improved if your argument is going to stand.

[Dana Kiecker]

On paper the 04 Sox were loaded..preseason.. after the 03 they had..

 

On paper this 07 team is not loaded just like everybody else in the AL East.. is it that hard to follow my point?

[example1]

On paper the 04 Sox were loaded..preseason.. after the 03 they had..

 

On paper this 07 team is not loaded just like everybody else in the AL East.. is it that hard to follow my point?

 

Just like everyone in baseball, if by loaded you mean "perfect on paper before the season starts". That's a useless definition, since it has never (or at the most rarely) been accomlished.

 

What's the point of criticising a team for being not-perfect?

 

Again, I think a better definition of "Loaded" is found by looking at how much better the team is than every other team around it, particularly when compared in overall production (offensive and defensive) and whether other teams would consider getting a sox player an upgrade or downgrade to their current players.

 

A loaded team is a team that is competitive when it doesn't play well, and nearly unstoppable when playing well. Even last year's team was loaded in this definition, which is why it was such a disappointment when they collapsed.

 

That definition of "loaded" is much better, as it allows us to say "the Yankees are a loaded team, as are the Mets, and the Twins and the Tigers" despite their warts.

[CrespoBlows]

 

I am actually confident that this bullpen will be very solid. I think Timlin is going to come back and be a DOWNGRADE to the current pen. I like the set up of having 3 lefties and I have been impressed with the work of Lopez and Romero, both in the past and so far this season. I see no reason to think that Lopez can't do what Mike Myers did. I see no reason to think romero can't do what Embree did, and I see no reason to think that Donnelley can't do what Timlin did.

 

The 2004 Red Sox Bullpen

 

ERA+

 

Foulke - 225

Timlin - 118

Embree - 118

Leskanic - 136

Williams - 388 (!)

Mendoza - 138

Dinardo - 115

Malaska - 116

Myers - 116

 

With the exception of Myers, all of these pitchers threw 20 innings. Combined, these pitchers would throw 364 innings of quality ball. That's pretty freaking good. The 2007 bullpen will be hard pressed to match that. Consider the 2006 ERA+ numbers for the current bullpen.

 

Papelbon - 500 (!)

Timlin - 106

Donnelly - 111

Romero - 65

Snyder - 77

Lopez - 171 (probably a fluke, as his DERA was 4.71)

Pineiro - 64

 

These guys better have career years for your prophecy to come true.

 

 

Papelbon is the ONLY shut-down reliever that either of those teams had. Foulke was a gamble every time he was on the mound, although the results were tremendous.

 

If the results are tremendous, it's not a gamble. Foulke had a 2.17 ERA, and a WHIP under 1.00, he also had an outstanding strikeout rate.

 

I don't think it is out of the question to say that the Yankees (the sox main rival for the ALE for the next few years) will be looking for a guy like Papelbon once they lose Rivera.

 

So will every team in baseball.

 

 

The 04 team certainly wasn't able to do that. We all shared that feeling of dread when Pedro came in in game 7 agsint the yankees. I wouldn't feel that way this year.

 

No, they only won the World Series, and completely shut down the Cardinals.

 

 

 

So yeah, I'd rather have Schlling, Beckett and Matsuzaka in the playoffs than Pedro, Schilling and Lowe/Arroyo/Wakefield.

 

Why are you shrinking the size of the games and rotation? That isn't the question.

[CrespoBlows]

I argued that the sox were not-not loaded (if that makes sense) in response to someone else saying they were not loaded. You further defined loaded by saying "Loaded teams do not have shaky middle relief' date=' and shaky set-up men. Loaded teams do not start Julian Tavarez as their fifth starter. Loaded teams do not have Jason Varitek, and Coco Crisp in their lineup" as if all of those players had already played a full season and we knew what they were going to do. The Red Sox did not pick up Romero, Pineiro, Okijima and Donnelly to s*** the bed, despite what you might think, and as far as I can see they haven't yet done that. [/quote']

 

You called the Red Sox loaded. Why are you giving me a lecture about the word?

 

 

You point to the 05 White Sox, but before the 05 season nobody would have called them "loaded". Wasn't Dustin Hermenson their closer? They ran ass-backwards into Bobby Jenks and certainly didn't see him as their shut down closer at this time of year in 05. Overall, your expectations are unrealistic and defeatest in my opinion. You're not letting the season play itself out, but you're declaring that this team isn't "loaded" because there are questions about its bullpen. Have you looked at Scott Podsednik's numbers from 2005 when talking about what Crisp will or will not do?

 

I did say maybe, and it appears they were not.

 

Do you think he can score more than 80 Runs, hit more than .290, have more than a .700 OPS? Do you think he can hit more than 0 HR, drive in more than 25 RBI? So that is the "Loaded" 2005 White Sox starting CF.

 

No, no, maybe, yes, and maybe.

 

How about Varitek vs. Pierzynski? Can Varitek potentially (even in his decline) beat these numbers?

 

.257/.308/.420 (.728 OPS), with 18 HR and 56 RBI, scoring 61 Runs? That certainly doesn't blow Varitek out of the water, does it? The White Sox of that year had a .747 team OPS. The Sox of LAST year had a .786 OPS.

 

No, Varitek will probably match Pierzynki's numbers. If not be slightly worse.

 

So are you saying that the White Sox were "loaded" in 05 still?

 

No.

 

i agree, they might have been by the end of the season, but your definition of "loaded" as being a perfect team, with all bullpen and setup options in place, and without a CF or C who hits poorly just won't do and should be improved if your argument is going to stand.

 

Where did I say a loaded team was perfect? A loaded team is a dominant team. Like these:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1927.shtml

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1998.shtml

[example1]

 

 

 

The 2004 Red Sox Bullpen

 

ERA+

 

Foulke - 225

Timlin - 118

Embree - 118

Leskanic - 136

Williams - 388 (!)

Mendoza - 138

Dinardo - 115

Malaska - 116

Myers - 116

 

With the exception of Myers, all of these pitchers threw 20 innings. Combined, these pitchers would throw 364 innings of quality ball. That's pretty freaking good. The 2007 bullpen will be hard pressed to match that. Consider the 2006 ERA+ numbers for the current bullpen.

 

Papelbon - 500 (!)

Timlin - 106

Donnelly - 111

Romero - 65

Snyder - 77

Lopez - 171 (probably a fluke, as his DERA was 4.71)

Pineiro - 64

 

These guys better have career years for your prophecy to come true.

 

It's not my prophecy, it is the hopes of the FO. I see no reason to think some of these guys can't come back and have a really good season. To expect the team to have the same construction, or that all WS teams have the same construction is incorrect. Each team has its own 'flavor' so-to-speak. This team is hoping to have an adequate bullpen, above average starting pitchers, above average offense and average to occasionally + defense. They plan to win 60% + games at home and be about .500 on the road, I bet.

 

If the results are tremendous, it's not a gamble. Foulke had a 2.17 ERA, and a WHIP under 1.00, he also had an outstanding strikeout rate.

 

So what? That doesn't mean Foulke was objectively a LOCK to have a great season. He had a good season, but clearly he outpitched his stuff.

 

No, they only won the World Series, and completely shut down the Cardinals.

 

After having the most IMPROBABLE comeback in sports history which hinged on a stolen base and a ground rule double. It is easy to pretend that somehow the sox were a lock that season, but that doesn't pay enough reverence to the "baseball gods" in my opinion. This team will need luck and good preparation if it is going to succeed, just like the 04 team needed to and the 03 team didn't quite have. Nothing new there.

 

Why are you shrinking the size of the games and rotation? That isn't the question.

 

Do you think this team, as currently constructed, has a chance to make the playoffs? I bet you do. Will you be citing the 07 team as a great team if they DON'T win the WS? I doubt it. Making the playoffs is step one (and the main goal of the FO), winning in the playoffs is another thing altogether and it is something that I think this team is well constructed to do if it makes the playoffs.

 

Would you rather have Wang, Pettitte and Mussina in the playoffs or Schilling, Beckett and Matsuzaka?

 

The difference between the 03 and 04 sox was definitely the addition of a shut-down closer and a second ace. The 03 team was good enough to make the playoffs (as was the 06 team until injuries) and they added some pieces to push them beyond just 'making' the playoffs.

[example1]

You called the Red Sox loaded. Why are you giving me a lecture about the word?

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1927.shtml

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1998.shtml

 

The only examples of loaded teams you provided were ones that won the WS. If winning a WS is a prerequisate to being loaded then you can't also say with any conviction whether this team is or isn't. I think this team certainly can win the WS. I think this team could have one of the top 5 offenses in the league and the top 5 pitching staffs in the league.

 

Our definitions may differ, but the only reason we're even writing about this is because YOU questioned the term, not me. I simply believe that there can be a spectrum of loadedness in teams, and that this sox team can be seen as part of that spectrum.

 

You said they can't because they have some questions (notice, those questions weren't starting pitching or hitting, but relief pitching). I questioned the criteria that you set.

[CrespoBlows]

 

It's not my prophecy, it is the hopes of the FO.

 

What?

 

Yes.

 

You did say that you'd take the 2007 Red Sox pitching staff over the one in 2004. That usually means you think it's better.

 

I see no reason to think some of these guys can't come back and have a really good season.

 

Talent, or lack thereof.

Age related decline.

 

 

 

To expect the team to have the same construction, or that all WS teams have the same construction is incorrect.

 

No one said that.

 

This team is hoping to have an adequate bullpen, above average starting pitchers, above average offense and average to occasionally + defense. They plan to win 60% + games at home and be about .500 on the road, I bet.

 

If that's what the team is hoping for, I hope Theo is fired by tommorow.

 

 

 

So what? That doesn't mean Foulke was objectively a LOCK to have a great season. He had a good season, but clearly he outpitched his stuff.

 

You've got to be kidding.

 

He was expected to have another great year. Have you looked at Foulke's career? Probably not. Foulke ERA+:

 

2004 - 225

2003 - 205

2002 - 159

2001 - 198

2000 - 174

1999 - 215

 

He had been dominant for six consecutive years.

 

After having the most IMPROBABLE comeback in sports history which hinged on a stolen base and a ground rule double. It is easy to pretend that somehow the sox were a lock that season, but that doesn't pay enough reverence to the "baseball gods" in my opinion. This team will need luck and good preparation if it is going to succeed, just like the 04 team needed to and the 03 team didn't quite have. Nothing new there.

 

No, it wasn't. That was the first of like four thousand subsequent events that broke the Yanks' back. How can the very first thing that went right for the Red Sox that entire series be the thing that "broke the Yanks' back?" Bill Mueller's single, Leskanic's four big outs, Ortiz's home run, Ortiz's single, ARod striking out with a runner on third and one out in a close game, Rivera's two blown saves, Gordon imploding, Schilling's 7 innings of one-run ball, Bellhorn's home run, ARod's swiping of Arroyo's arm, Foulke striking out Tony Clark with the tying runs on base in the ninth of Game Six, Derek Lowe's six innings in Game 7, Ortiz's home run after Damon was thrown out at the plate, Damon's Grand Slam, Damon's 2-run shot, and Bellhorn's solo job after Pedro had given up two runs, are all better examples of things that "broke the Yanks' back."

 

From FJM.com.

 

 

Do you think this team, as currently constructed, has a chance to make the playoffs? I bet you do. Will you be citing the 07 team as a great team if they DON'T win the WS? I doubt it. Making the playoffs is step one (and the main goal of the FO), winning in the playoffs is another thing altogether and it is something that I think this team is well constructed to do if it makes the playoffs.

 

Sure, I think they have a chance, but what does the prove?

 

Would you rather have Wang, Pettitte and Mussina in the playoffs or Schilling, Beckett and Matsuzaka?

 

Ask me this question in October.

 

The difference between the 03 and 04 sox was definitely the addition of a shut-down closer and a second ace. The 03 team was good enough to make the playoffs (as was the 06 team until injuries) and they added some pieces to push them beyond just 'making' the playoffs.

 

Agreed.

[CrespoBlows]

The only examples of loaded teams you provided were ones that won the WS. If winning a WS is a prerequisate to being loaded then you can't also say with any conviction whether this team is or isn't. I think this team certainly can win the WS. I think this team could have one of the top 5 offenses in the league and the top 5 pitching staffs in the league.

 

Our definitions may differ, but the only reason we're even writing about this is because YOU questioned the term, not me. I simply believe that there can be a spectrum of loadedness in teams, and that this sox team can be seen as part of that spectrum.

 

You said they can't because they have some questions (notice, those questions weren't starting pitching or hitting, but relief pitching). I questioned the criteria that you set.

 

OK, now we have the criteria set.

 

Are the Red Sox a loaded team?

[example1]

OK, now we have the criteria set.

 

Are the Red Sox a loaded team?

 

My definition of loaded, amid this stupid discussion ( ) is that they are one of the top 5 teams on paper in baseball. With Manny Ramirez, JD Drew and David Ortiz, Schilling, Beckett, Matsuzaka and Papelbon, this team is as loaded as it has been in any recent years. I wouldn't consider 04 Millar or Mueller or Todd Walker/Mark Bellhorn to be upgrades, nor would I consider Trot Nixon to be an upgrade. Damon would be, and 04 Tek would be; otherwise the team is well constructed and has a TON of potential to be great.

[example1]

No, it wasn't. That was the first of like four thousand subsequent events that broke the Yanks' back. How can the very first thing that went right for the Red Sox that entire series be the thing that "broke the Yanks' back?" Bill Mueller's single, Leskanic's four big outs, Ortiz's home run, Ortiz's single, ARod striking out with a runner on third and one out in a close game, Rivera's two blown saves, Gordon imploding, Schilling's 7 innings of one-run ball, Bellhorn's home run, ARod's swiping of Arroyo's arm, Foulke striking out Tony Clark with the tying runs on base in the ninth of Game Six, Derek Lowe's six innings in Game 7, Ortiz's home run after Damon was thrown out at the plate, Damon's Grand Slam, Damon's 2-run shot, and Bellhorn's solo job after Pedro had given up two runs, are all better examples of things that "broke the Yanks' back."

 

I don't remember saying "Broke the Yank's back." Maybe I did, but I can't find it. What I said is that the season hinged on a stolen base and a ground rule double, which is entirely true. You pointed out a number of other things that the season hinged on, all of which further prove my point. A number of things can go wrong/right to either continue a season or squash it. That same luck (or lack of it) is beyond the particular construction of a team and has more to do with the game played on the field. It doesn't take having Keith Foulke on your team to make the wall in RF shorter and to keep the runner at 3rd instead of scoring. It doesn't take having a great bullpen to make that difference, and it is those differences that determine who wins WS championships once teams have made the playoffs (you know, if you're willing to dismiss my argument that this team is better constructed to dominate pitching-wise in the playoffs).

 

I'm done with this stupid discussion though. You keep being negative during the 5th game of the season and judge the potential of the team not on what they will do but on your personal opinion of them and their FO.

[Teddyballgame10]

You have Youk and Millar a wash? I don't think so Youk is 20 times better then Millar was in 04. Millar was great for the clubhouse but defensivley he was terrible and never really impressed me at the dish.

 

The bullpen in 04 was the reason why we won, thats unquestionable it will be near impossible for 07 to match that.

[a700hitter]

You have Youk and Millar a wash? I don't think so Youk is 20 times better then Millar was in 04. Millar was great for the clubhouse but defensivley he was terrible and never really impressed me at the dish.

 

The bullpen in 04 was the reason why we won, thats unquestionable it will be near impossible for 07 to match that.

Take a look at Millar's 2004 stats. He had a similar but better BA and OBP as Youk with a better Slugging % and OPS. If not a wash, the advantage goes to Millar, who could also play the OF.

[Cocos Disciples]

The market has bloated incredibly, and guys like Mueller, Nixon, Bellhorn, Pedro and Foulke all of whom were key parts of the 2004 season, would not be nearly as productive in 07 (2 of whom are retired). If we kept that same team for the same amount of money, we'd be near 75 wins.

[CrespoBlows]

You have Youk and Millar a wash? I don't think so Youk is 20 times better then Millar was in 04. Millar was great for the clubhouse but defensivley he was terrible and never really impressed me at the dish.

 

2004 Millar FRAA: +8

 

2004 Millar EQA: .296

 

2004 Millar OPS+: 117

 

2006 Youkilis FRAA: 0

 

2006 Youkilis EQA: .290

 

2006 Youkilis OPS+: 108

 

20 times better? Youkilis isn't even the better player.

[CrespoBlows]

If not a wash' date=' the advantage goes to Millar, who could also play the OF.[/quote']

 

So can Youkilis.

 

Though, we don't want either of them playing there.

[CrespoBlows]

 

Our definitions may differ, but the only reason we're even writing about this is because YOU questioned the term, not me. I simply believe that there can be a spectrum of loadedness in teams, and that this sox team can be seen as part of that spectrum.

 

No, I was calling your ********. If you don't want to have the discussion, quit responding.

 

Oh, and after further examination, the Red Sox aren't loaded.

[a700hitter]

So can Youkilis.

 

Though, we don't want either of them playing there.

Millar can play there on a limited basis. He has a weak arm and he's slow, but other than that his OF instincts aren't bad. Youk, on the other hand, cannot play out there even on a limited basis. He will only go to the OF when you have less than 3 healthy OF's. It's saying a lot that a linebacker like Hinske is by far the better OF than Youk. Youk is lost out there.

[CrespoBlows]

My definition of loaded' date=' amid this stupid discussion ( ) is that they are one of the top 5 teams on paper in baseball. [/quote']

 

The top 5 teams in baseball are probably:

 

1. Mets

2. Yankees

3. Red Sox

4. Tigers

5. Guardians

 

You're calling all of these teams, loaded?

 

 

 

With Manny Ramirez, JD Drew and David Ortiz, Schilling, Beckett, Matsuzaka and Papelbon, this team is as loaded as it has been in any recent years.

 

Oh, I get it. If you have a few stars, you're loaded. That makes A LOT of sense.

 

I wouldn't consider 04 Millar or Mueller or Todd Walker/Mark Bellhorn to be upgrades, nor would I consider Trot Nixon to be an upgrade.

 

More babbling. I don't recall calling the 2004 Red Sox loaded. They were better than this team, but they weren't loaded.

 

otherwise the team is well constructed and has a TON of potential to be great.

 

Oh. My. f***ing. God.

 

You're in absolute denial.

 

You're saying the bullpen is well constructed? The back end of the rotation? The 6-9 hitters?

 

C'mon, lose the f***ing bias.

[a700hitter]

You're in absolute denial.

 

You're saying the bullpen is well constructed? The back end of the rotation? The 6-9 hitters?

 

C'mon, lose the f***ing bias.

The team has some high-priced talent, but I agree that it is not well-constructed. When ST started, I said that the FO still had a lot of work to do, and most posters agreed. We are all giddy about the season starting, but the FO did nothing to strengthen the weak spots like the bottom 4 in the lineup and the bullpen. All they did was move Papelbon back to closer opening up a hole in the rotation. I really thought Helton would be in the opening day lineup, and I was sure that we would have one more quality arm for the pen.