Boston Herald: Talks Break Down With Matsuzaka, Deal Unlikely To Get Done

[Cocos Disciples]

That would make my Thursday...or Wednesday whenever it is.

[jacksonianmarch]

This has to be one of the funniest things I've heard all year. Boras is going to challenge and end the posting system' date=' opening the market for young Japanese stars to be free-agents? In what court of law? He might end the practice of MLB participating in the posting process, or at least get them to change it. But, he's not opening the Japanese market. What incentive does NPB have to end the current system? None. If the posting system ends, then they'll just go back to controlling players for 10 years before they lose them as FAs. Boras has no power and no court over here has any jurisdiction to force the NPB to do something that is clearly not in their interest. The fact that anyone thinks he can force this change is outright hilarious. People will believe anything when viewed as a fan.[/quote']

 

actually, if the MLB pulls out of the posting system then it allows any japanese player to leave at any time. Soriano took advantage of it, Nomo did too. You retire in Japan and then go to the majors. The posting system was created to at least give the japanese teams something in return.

[ORS]

And MLB wants no part of that, as is evidenced by the creation of the posting system. They want a partnership with Japan, like the Yankees have with the Yomiuri Giants. They aren't going to sever these ties just to make Scott Boras happy.

[jacksonianmarch]

And MLB wants no part of that' date=' as is evidenced by the creation of the posting system. They want a partnership with Japan, like the Yankees have with the Yomiuri Giants. They aren't going to sever these ties just to make Scott Boras happy.[/quote']

 

Gom makes a good point. If a player retires, comes to america, established residence and is not allowed to play in the majors, then the players union could take his side in a court room. Nobody has tried it yet. Dont think it will stay that way if things dont improve.

[ORS]

Gom makes a good point. If a player retires' date=' comes to america, established residence and is not allowed to play in the majors, then the players union could take his side in a court room. Nobody has tried it yet. Dont think it will stay that way if things dont improve.[/quote']

Worked wonders for Maurice Clarret.

[jacksonianmarch]

Worked wonders for Maurice Clarret.

 

that was because the players union had already negotiated the deal. I am not sure if the posting system was negotiated between the players and the owners or if it was just a MLB to Japan thing. If the posting system is in the CBA, then there is nothing they can do about it.

[a700hitter]

What you are proposing the Japanese stars do would destroy the Japanese league. For that reason, I don't think that any Japanese player will take that road no matter what Boras tells them. At the end of the day, these players will be returning to japan to live. No one would risk being ostracized in his homeland as the the player who destroyed the Japanese league.

[jacksonianmarch]

What you are proposing the Japanese stars do would destroy the Japanese league. For that reason' date=' I don't think that any Japanese player will take that road no matter what Boras tells them. At the end of the day, these players will be returning to japan to live. No one would risk being ostracized in his homeland as the the player who destroyed the Japanese league.[/quote']

 

 

then why hasnt Nomo been ostracized? He retired in Japan and came to america. I dont think he is a pariah in japan.

[a700hitter]

then why hasnt Nomo been ostracized? He retired in Japan and came to america. I dont think he is a pariah in japan.

Didn't he do this before the posting system was in place? He was the pioneer. It's different today. The Japanese owners know that there would be a hemorrage of talent if they dipose of the posting system. Their league would take a terrible financial blow. Nomo is irrelevant to this situation. He came here more than 10 years ago.

[ORS]

that was because the players union had already negotiated the deal. I am not sure if the posting system was negotiated between the players and the owners or if it was just a MLB to Japan thing. If the posting system is in the CBA' date=' then there is nothing they can do about it.[/quote']

That's true. Whether or not it is in the CBA will play a role in his chances. That said, this would be a precedent setting case, so the appeals process would be completely exhausted to determine the ruling. That could take years. Is it worth the risk to Matsuzaka? He stands to potentially lose the ability to play over here, and you can bet your ass he won't be accepted back. Even if the decision goes his way, he won't be playing competitive ball while he sits on the shelf - at least not relevant competitve ball. That rusting time brings his signing value dow. And, what is all this for? To "free" his Japanese brethren? To be the pawn in Boras' move to control the Japanese talent market? Sorry, not buying. This guy isn't Joan of Arc. It's his lifelong dream to play MLB ball, not martyr himself for the rest of the Japanese players or the world's best used car salesman. Just don't see it happening.

[jacksonianmarch]

Didn't he do this before the posting system was in place? He was the pioneer. It's different today. The Japanese owners know that there would be a hemorrage of talent if they dipose of the posting system. Their league would take a terrible financial blow. Nomo is irrelevant to this situation. He came here more than 10 years ago.

 

the question is, though, if the players start retiring in Japan and coming to america, it isnt like they will be ostracized. They will be vigorously followed by the loyal japanese fans. Your point on this topic about these players being considered traitors is wrong.

[a700hitter]

the question is' date=' though, if the players start retiring in Japan and coming to america, it isnt like they will be ostracized. They will be vigorously followed by the loyal japanese fans. Your point on this topic about these players being considered traitors is wrong.[/quote']I don't think the japanese players want to destroy the Japanese league. If they didn't give a hoot, then why would Matsuzaka have a rally for his japanese fans to say farewell. Whether they will be ostracized is debatable, but I don't think they will want to destroy the japanese league.

[jacksonianmarch]

it wont destroy the japanese league. Their best players are being whored out to america anyways. They will still have players, teams will still be filled and life will go on.

 

And why would Matsuzaka have a rally? Because he is an icon over there, who is leaving. I dont think they hate him now that he is going.

[seabeachfred]

Jackson, easy for you to say he is going since you are a Yankee fan, but, please, my friend, say "because he might be going." This isn't a done deal by a long shot and the Boston Herald didn't exactly make my weekend with their missive that talks had broken down. As Riverside put it so aptly, if we lose the guy who the hell is there out there that we could get as a solid starter for our rotation? The ranks are a little thin to say the least, and except for Dansack who I am only going by one five inning gem, what we have in our own stable isn't encouraging me to try for World Series at this time.

[a700hitter]

Jackson' date=' easy for you to say he is going since you are a Yankee fan, but, please, my friend, say "because he might be going." This isn't a done deal by a long shot and the Boston Herald didn't exactly make my weekend with their missive that talks had broken down. As Riverside put it so aptly, if we lose the guy who the hell is there out there that we could get as a solid starter for our rotation? The ranks are a little thin to say the least, and except for Dansack who I am only going by one five inning gem, what we have in our own stable isn't encouraging me to try for World Series at this time.[/quote']They'd have to make a major play for Zito.

[BoSox21]

I would still blame the FO cause they lowballed Boras/Matsuzaka with their initial offer. 7-8 mil a year for 6 years? in a market where Gil f***ing Meche gets 11 million? If thats the best offer the FO comes out with, I'll be more inclined to believe this was simply a block on the Yankees

[seabeachfred]

They'd have to make a major play for Zito.

 

That would seem to be the only alternative. We'd have a wad of cash to sign him, too, wouldn't we? And maybe Clemens later on in the season? Well, it's a thought.

[SuperManny]

I would still blame the FO cause they lowballed Boras/Matsuzaka with their initial offer. 7-8 mil a year for 6 years? in a market where Gil f***ing Meche gets 11 million? If thats the best offer the FO comes out with' date=' I'll be more inclined to believe this was simply a block on the Yankees[/quote']

 

First of all you have no idea what the FO's first offer was. No one knows for sure and its all speculation at this point. Also any offer make to Mats was made before Gil Meche signed. Third, Meche signed with the Royals who like the O's can't bring in any decent FA without severly overpaying for them. Fourth, Matsuzaka is not a FA like Meche so it doesn't really matter what Meche makes. A better comparison is a pitcher like Santana or Beckett who were still in under the control of the team but in arbitration and they got about $10M per year.

 

Matsuzaka has thrown exactly 0 pitches in MLB as well and even though his track record in an inferior league is good its still not as good as someone like Santana who has dominated MLB.

[SuperManny]

then why hasnt Nomo been ostracized? He retired in Japan and came to america. I dont think he is a pariah in japan.

 

I believe the posting system came about because of Nomo. I'm pretty sure the posting system is in place so that players can't retire and go to the US. Even if they retire they still can't sign with another team until their original contract is up.

 

Baseball Reference

 

The Posting System is a player transfer system between the NPB and the MLB. It was created to allow teams to receive compensation for players who would like to play in the MLB before becoming a free agent and to avoid situations like those of Hideo Nomo or Alfonso Soriano, who had used loopholes in a prior NPB-MLB agreement to switch countries.

[Ray10]

I'm not going to read into this too much. I'm still optimisic the Sox will sign Matsukaza it's just going to come down to the last hour. If Boras continues to go the way he is we prolly would see Matsukaza just tell him to back off and sign a deal so he can play. We all know his wishes to play in the majors and not go back to Japan next year.

[Bosoxwest]

btw this is typical posturing

 

He Hate Me is accurate. Thursday AM, no deal, we should worry.

[riverside sluggers]

They'd have to make a major play for Zito.

 

For Zito's best interests, he should be in the Nl and a pitcher's park. Remember Wayback Beckett of last year? Zito, prone to giving up the long ball, is not a good fit for Fenway Park. Id be very surprised if he could have a sub 4.00 ERA while pitching in the AL East, facing New York 3-6 times and previously mentioned having Fenway as his haven

 

The Boston Herald and olther sources are suggesting Clemens could be a good bet to step in if they dont sign Matsuzaka. But he would be a mid-season signing... so the first 2-3 months of the season we would see a conga line of retreads in the 5th spot until Clemens might be with the team?

[riverside sluggers]

That would seem to be the only alternative. We'd have a wad of cash to sign him' date=' too, wouldn't we? And maybe Clemens later on in the season? Well, it's a thought.[/quote']

 

Get Zito and Clemens in the same season? That would easily put their payroll to the $160-170 million range if you wish it to be so.

 

I would still blame the FO cause they lowballed Boras/Matsuzaka with their initial offer. 7-8 mil a year for 6 years? in a market where Gil f***ing Meche gets 11 million? If thats the best offer the FO comes out with' date=' I'll be more inclined to believe this was simply a block on the Yankees[/quote']

 

??

 

First of all if it cmes out that the Sox did this just to f*** with the Yankees for a year or 2... it does not make them look smart. They will ook like asses for lying to the current team, MLB commish Bud Selig, the loyal fanbase tha is Red Sox Nation, and ahem above all the Japanese league. Say bye bye to any future deals the Sox might want to try & make with high-caliber players from over

 

Second, bravo Sox you waited out the 30 day deadline to just sit back and knowing that D-Mat didnt go to the Yankees... but wait who's your fifth starter as the options begin to dry up?

 

Third,. oh cmon tell me you are not on Boras' side? Their first initial offer was "reported" at $7-8 million per year. You see thats how negotiations start out, low and then you keep working your way to a meeting point. Although Boras doesnt want to have one because he wants to see him sign with New York for $100+ million. Ah thats too bad if the first offer lowballed the devil agent Boras

[jacksonianmarch]

Herald says the talks are still stalled and arent likely to get moving. Boras hasnt budged off his 15 mil requests and Theo hasnt moved off 7-8 mil.

 

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=171439

 

They are saying that the sox may make a run at Clemens.

[Gom]

Worked wonders for Maurice Clarret.

 

Worked out pretty poorly for Dave McNally and Andy Messerschmidt.

 

Point is, it won't go that long. The issue, if it ever came to that, would be taken care of in weeks, if not a couple of months, like it did in the 70's. Also, the reference to Clarett is weak. First of all, he simply didn't have the talent to compete in the the NFL, and they have the weakest union in pro sports. Imagine instead it was Reggie Bush. What do you think the end result would have been?

 

One again, I'm debating the point, not whether or not it will happen. I still believe, much to my chagrin, that he will sign on the final day, or more likely, the final few hours.

[ORS]

Worked out pretty poorly for Dave McNally and Andy Messerschmidt.

 

Point is, it won't go that long. The issue, if it ever came to that, would be taken care of in weeks, if not a couple of months, like it did in the 70's. Also, the reference to Clarett is weak. First of all, he simply didn't have the talent to compete in the the NFL, and they have the weakest union in pro sports. Imagine instead it was Reggie Bush. What do you think the end result would have been?

 

One again, I'm debating the point, not whether or not it will happen. I still believe, much to my chagrin, that he will sign on the final day, or more likely, the final few hours.

Clarett's talent is irrelevant. Mike Williams was a sure-fire top-5 pick and, although he wasn't filing the suit, the decision would have made him draft eligible.

 

Your point about the strength of the NFLPA relative to the league is valid, but I see this as a sticking point for MLB. I can see a long, drawn out, protracted legal battle over this issue, because, at heart, what would be up for decision, is the right of MLB to determine playing eligibility. And, we aren't talking about MLBPA members. The guys coming over from Japan are potential members, but they don't belong to the union until they sign a contract. How hard would the fight from MLBPA be for potential members? How hard would it be for people who will likely unseat current members? Tough to say.

[jacksonianmarch]

It isnt just potential members. There will definitely be future members affected and some already in the union have been adversely affected. If the posting system was relegated to nothing, Matsuzaka would have been in the majors 2 yrs ago when he really wanted to be posted.

[ORS]

And he would have replaced a current union member. How hard will the fight be from the union when they would be in the business of ushering in replacements for current members?

[jacksonianmarch]

And he would have replaced a current union member. How hard will the fight be from the union when they would be in the business of ushering in replacements for current members?

 

they have to do that. You protect current and future members. And you can bet that the guys who went through this process will fight it. Also, if a few guys from Japan will be coming in to take a few spots, then the guys who lose their spots arent going to be the best of players and would be replaced by some rookies anyways. It isnt like Pujols needs to worry about his job here.

[ORS]

I know it is the fringe players that will be getting replaced, but it isn't like replacing them with a rookie. The rookies will replace the fringe guys at the rate rookies are ready to make the transition. By making the fight for the rights of Japanese professionals, they are potentially introducing immediate replacements, meaning careers get ended earlier. And, lets not act like it is a "few" players. If posting goes away, the number making the transition would certainly increase. Especially in light of the recent successes of Japanese talent here.