Boston Herald: Talks Break Down With Matsuzaka, Deal Unlikely To Get Done

[RavenOfProphecy]

Well, it looks like we're not going to be getting Matsuzaka:

 

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=171334

 

And now with Andy Pettitte signing with the Yankees, they become the favorite to land Roger Clemens if he decides to pitch. If that happened, our rotations would look like this:

 

Red Sox: Curt Schilling, Josh Beckett, Jonathan Papelbon, Jon Lester, Tim Wakefield

Yankees: Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina, Andy Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang

 

They would have an obvious advantage in terms of their rotation, and that doesn't bode well. We're going to need to spend even more money if we don't get Matsuzaka to lure the Rocket back here, especially since Zito is a bad fit for Fenway (left handed fly ball pitcher in a hitter's park), and we missed out on people like Ted Lilly, who were the other good FA options. I didn't much like the Matsuzaka deal, in part because it was costly, partly because he was unproven against major leaguers, and in part because of this - if it failed, all of the other good pitchers would be taken.

[jacksonianmarch]

we have been talking about this in the other thread my friend. This is far from over, but I think there are alterior motives involving Boras and his want to undo the posting system.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

The commish has already said there needs to be changes to the posting system so I expect them to make changes before next off-season.

[a700hitter]

He'll be signed by the deadline. Everyone loses if he doesn't . No one has any real leverage, so the signing will be a FMV signing. Since he has never pitched in the majors, IMO his FMV will top out at about 5years/$60 million.

[riverside sluggers]

Well, it looks like we're not going to be getting Matsuzaka:

 

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=171334

 

And now with Andy Pettitte signing with the Yankees, they become the favorite to land Roger Clemens if he decides to pitch. If that happened, our rotations would look like this:

 

Red Sox: Curt Schilling, Josh Beckett, Jonathan Papelbon, Jon Lester, Tim Wakefield

Yankees: Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina, Andy Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang

 

People please dont be jotting Lester's name down to be in the opening day rotation or even bullpen for that matter. The kid hasnt pitched since August-- has gone through chemo since then and still needs one more treatment to go. Bring the kid up slowly and dont put too much pressure on him, a start in Triple A wouldnt be the worst thing for him at all. The Sox will probably end up signing some hack like Batista, do a desperation trade, or try a slew of Snyder/Gabbard/Hansack/Pauley.. or give try at Clemens who would be good but gives us three 40-year old starting pitchers

 

Until the deadline, Im remaining in same mode until the clock strikes midnight

[jacksonianmarch]

People please dont be jotting Lester's name down to be in the opening day rotation or even bullpen for that matter. The kid hasnt pitched since August-- has gone through chemo since then and still needs one more treatment to go. Bring the kid up slowly and dont put too much pressure on him, a start in Triple A wouldnt be the worst thing for him at all. The Sox will probably end up signing some hack like Batista, do a desperation trade, or try a slew of Snyder/Gabbard/Hansack/Pauley.. or give try at Clemens who would be good but gives us three 40-year old starting pitchers

 

Until the deadline, Im remaining in same mode until the clock strikes midnight

 

good post riverside. Lester should be an afterthought for 2007. Do not put pressure on him, he just fought through a life threatening issue, give him time before the city of Boston puts pressure on him to win a meaningless game.

[seabeachfred]

Well, it looks like we're not going to be getting Matsuzaka:

 

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=171334

 

And now with Andy Pettitte signing with the Yankees, they become the favorite to land Roger Clemens if he decides to pitch. If that happened, our rotations would look like this:

 

Red Sox: Curt Schilling, Josh Beckett, Jonathan Papelbon, Jon Lester, Tim Wakefield

Yankees: Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina, Andy Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang

 

They would have an obvious advantage in terms of their rotation, and that doesn't bode well. We're going to need to spend even more money if we don't get Matsuzaka to lure the Rocket back here, especially since Zito is a bad fit for Fenway (left handed fly ball pitcher in a hitter's park), and we missed out on people like Ted Lilly, who were the other good FA options. I didn't much like the Matsuzaka deal, in part because it was costly, partly because he was unproven against major leaguers, and in part because of this - if it failed, all of the other good pitchers would be taken.

 

Rave, you could be right on this, but if Boras also blows this he will be mud in Japan and Daisuke could lose a lot of face going back to a team that would rather have the $51 million than him. If Matsu really wants to come here he could tell Boras he wants to sigjn period and back off, or he can fire the guy and get a new agent. Either way, it is Boras who is holding things up and it is about time someone besides Ken Williams has stood up to this money grubbing bum.

[seabeachfred]

we have been talking about this in the other thread my friend. This is far from over' date=' but I think there are alterior motives involving Boras and his want to undo the posting system.[/quote']

 

Boras is a hard ass, but Matsu and the Lions could simply tell Scott to buzz off; that Daisuke wants to play in the US and come here and sign the contract. The Lions want that $51 million, Matsuzaka wants to pitch here, the Red Sox want him. The only fly in the ointment is Boras and if the pitcher would fire his agent Boras would get the black eye he badly needs and we can get on with the task at hand. If DM wants to really play in the US and not worry about how many gazilions he's getting the deal can be done.

[a700hitter]

Boras is a hard ass' date=' but Matsu and the Lions could simply tell Scott to buzz off; that Daisuke wants to play in the US and come here and sign the contract. The Lions want that $51 million, Matsuzaka wants to pitch here, the Red Sox want him. The only fly in the ointment is Boras and if the pitcher would fire his agent Boras would get the black eye he badly needs and we can get on with the task at hand. If DM wants to really play in the US and not worry about how many gazilions he's getting the deal can be done.[/quote']From the article, it seems like Boras is throwing a hissy fit. In the end, he's a whore not a crusader. He doesn't like having no leverage, but IMO he will ink a deal by the deadline and work to change the posting system afterward. He will not pull the plug on this deal with the hope that he can get favorable changes to the postiing system.

[Beckett95]

Can Matsuzaka just fire that pompous ass Boras and get an agent that will try to get a deal done

[Cocos Disciples]

We'll get him.

[a700hitter]

He's putting pressure on Seibu with this maneuvre, which is where his only leverage is. The article quotes him as saying that no party can be selfish if this is to work. He's called it a three-way deal. No one can accuse the Red Sox of having been selfish since they ponied up $51 million and at a minimum are prepared to go another $40 million on the contract. He's turning up the heat on Seibu and accusing them of being selfish. They have the most to lose.

[jacksonianmarch]

You dont understand seabeach. Assume for now that the deal does not get done. Assume Matsuzaka spends another yr in Japanese purgatory, but in doing so, he is the face of the new system by which there is free trade of japanese and american players alike. Matsuzaka and Boras would be heroes by allowing young japanese players to realize their dreams in american baseball. I think this is the plan that Boras is pitching along with the obvious of an absolutely ridiculous payday in a yr.

[Beckett95]

heres a little summary about what Boras is trying to do from ESPN.com

 

Scott Boras insists he does not have to bring the 26-year-old right-hander to Boston this week. Boras claims that he is "arguably one of the five best starting pitchers in the game and should be paid accordingly, especially coming off of this market." In Boras's mind, that fair market price is $20 million, not that he's asking for it because of the posting system. But Boras also claims that Matsuzaka can get $15-18 million pitching in Japan, that Seibu can get a lot more than $51.1 million next year and that Boston can write off most of the posting costs with marketing and the exclusion of the luxury tax. While Boras remains adament in asking for close to a Jason Schmidt average annual value, Red Sox officials feel that the superagent prefers to keep Matsuzaka in Japan for two more years, then get $140 million for seven years after 2008.

 

the article also states the the Sox want a deal done by Tuesday so they can get Matsuzakas physical on wednesday.

[a700hitter]

You dont understand seabeach. Assume for now that the deal does not get done. Assume Matsuzaka spends another yr in Japanese purgatory' date=' but in doing so, he is the face of the new system by which there is free trade of japanese and american players alike. Matsuzaka and Boras would be heroes by allowing young japanese players to realize their dreams in american baseball. I think this is the plan that Boras is pitching along with the obvious of an absolutely ridiculous payday in a yr.[/quote']I have read in several places that Matsuzaka would have to spend two more years in japan if he doesn't sign with the Red Sox. Also, how would he go about changing the system? He may be an attorney, but he is not licensed to practice in Japan. Why would the Japanese league make any concessions to Boras, and what leverage could he possibly have over them. Why should they cave to Boras if it would mean that they get less money and they lose their star players. That's a lose, lose situation and the outcome is far from certain. As I said before, Boras is a whore not a crusader. He's not going to pull a Curt Flood here and act on principle. Curt Flood changed the game, but never played again and he died broke. Boras will not go down any path that is not paved with green, and the Japanese owners will not be bullied by him. Seibu might kick back some money to him on this deal, but they are not going to let the American agent tell them how to run their business.

[AirPantapas]

Sox shouldn't budge at all, there is no way Matsuzaka is worth what Borris says.

[riverside sluggers]

Sox shouldn't budge at all' date=' there is no way Matsuzaka is worth what Borris says.[/quote']

 

Who do you suggest the Sox bring in instead to be their 5th starter?

 

--Do not list Lester as a possible candidate to be in the opening day rotation.

 

-- Free agent options are *Roger Clemens (his agent has indicated he'd like another mid-season signing), injury riddled Mark Mulder, Miguel Batista, Mark Redman, Jason Johnson, Runelvys Hernandez, Russ Ortiz, Bruce Chen, Tony Armas Jr, Paul Wilson, Shawn Estes, Kevin Jarvis

 

-- Trade options where teams will know Sox will desperately need a starter and ask for the world in return: Jon Lieber, Jason Jennings, Jon Garland, injury riddled Bartolo Colon, injury riddled Mark Prior

 

-- Inside options: Kyle Snyder, Kason Gabbard, Devern Hansack, David Pauley

[Cityofchampions33]

Jesus, even when it's just a matter of making a fair deal he has to be an ass. I mean everyone knows he's a good agent, but this is just plain ********. Yeah, he's ARGUABLEY one of the best starters in the game, but as I stated before, he could be Irabu part duex. I don't understand why they can have a 3 year deal with the clause he wanst so much for around 12 mill.

[Beckett95]

the FA agent options suck and the trade options would cost alot. Garland would probably take Crisp, Bucholz and Gabbard or something like that. A trade I would consider, but wouldnt really want to make.

 

we NEED Matsuzaka to sign somehow

[Cityofchampions33]

I mean, Boras is saying how everyone should not be selfish but he still wanst his friggin money, at the cost of delaying a young pitcher his dream, a team of a solid player,a nd Seibu 51 mill. I mean tehre's a point where you just ahve to be reasonable, especially when you never really ahd leverage at all.

[BSN07]

Also it was Japan that came up with the posting system, so that america wouldn't get all the best Japan stars and there teams didn't get s***. Japan will no loose the posting system. Boras might beable to change some of the legal measures on this end, but as a whole he can't do s*** about it because its Japans policy not ours. And also Matsuzaka has said he wants to help the Seibu Lions, and the best way to do that is to sign and let them get 51.1 million. If he doesn't Seibu goes belly up and he has to deal with that scrutny.

[jacksonianmarch]

I have read in several places that Matsuzaka would have to spend two more years in japan if he doesn't sign with the Red Sox. Also' date=' how would he go about changing the system? He may be an attorney, but he is not licensed to practice in Japan. Why would the Japanese league make any concessions to Boras, and what leverage could he possibly have over them. Why should they cave to Boras if it would mean that they get less money and they lose their star players. That's a lose, lose situation and the outcome is far from certain. As I said before, Boras is a whore not a crusader. He's not going to pull a Curt Flood here and act on principle. Curt Flood changed the game, but never played again and he died broke. Boras will not go down any path that is not paved with green, and the Japanese owners will not be bullied by him. Seibu might kick back some money to him on this deal, but they are not going to let the American agent tell them how to run their business.[/quote']

 

the japanese dont have to make any concessions. This could be strictly a US issue. In the past, players just had to retire in Japan to become eligible to play in the US. The US teams made that illegal and opened the posting system. If they deem that to be a problem, then they could just accept retired japanese players again.

[a700hitter]

Also it was Japan that came up with the posting system' date=' so that america wouldn't get all the best Japan stars and there teams didn't get s***. [/quote']Exactly. The Japanese owners have nothing to gain from changing the system. The would lose their stars and get little in return. Boras is going to hire a Japanese law firm to challenge them? I don't think so. He's trying to squeeze some money out of Seibu. He might have some success with that, but this deal is going to happen. I suspect that the Red Sox are playing along with Boras by putting out this latest story. They don't care who splits up their $90-100 million. They have already given Boras their bottom line on the deal. Boras can stomp all he wants, but he can't argue that a guy that has never thrown a ML pitch is worth more to an organization than $90-100 million. He's greedy but he's not stupid. He knows that their is nothing more to squeeze out of the Red Sox. He has no other teams with which to negotiate. He's trying to squeeze Seibu who Boras views as selfish in this deal. If Seibu is smart, they should not budge. This guy has nowhere to go, but back to japan to spend two more years of his prime and lose millions in the process.

[mosox]

The Sox spin machine is up and running and Boras is being made to look like a fool. And frankly if Boras is truly whinning about the "posting process" instead of negociating, then he is a fool. This is an agreement between MLB and the Japan League. Apparently Boras' ego is the biggest factor here. It will be interesting to see how the Boras camp tries to spin this in his favor this week.

[jacksonianmarch]

Exactly. The Japanese owners have nothing to gain from changing the system. The would lose their stars and get little in return. Boras is going to hire a Japanese law firm to challenge them? I don't think so. He's trying to squeeze some money out of Seibu. He might have some success with that' date=' but this deal is going to happen. I suspect that the Red Sox are playing along with Boras by putting out this latest story. They don't care who splits up their $90-100 million. They have already given Boras their bottom line on the deal. Boras can stomp all he wants, but he can't argue that a guy that has never thrown a ML pitch is worth more to an organization than $90-100 million. He's greedy but he's not stupid. He knows that their is nothing more to squeeze out of the Red Sox. He has no other teams with which to negotiate. He's trying to squeeze Seibu who Boras views as selfish in this deal. If Seibu is smart, they should not budge. This guy has nowhere to go, but back to japan to spend two more years of his prime and lose millions in the process.[/quote']

 

he knows that there is nothing more to squeeze out of the red sox? That is one of the funniest lines in yrs. Isnt this the same team that just sign JDL Drew to 70 mil over 5 yrs, prompting some high level GMs to call it the worst FA deal...EVER. The sox have cash to spare and Boras knows this.

[seabeachfred]

You dont understand seabeach. Assume for now that the deal does not get done. Assume Matsuzaka spends another yr in Japanese purgatory' date=' but in doing so, he is the face of the new system by which there is free trade of japanese and american players alike. Matsuzaka and Boras would be heroes by allowing young japanese players to realize their dreams in american baseball. I think this is the plan that Boras is pitching along with the obvious of an absolutely ridiculous payday in a yr.[/quote']

 

Jackson, it could work that way but Matsu would have to stay in Japan TWO more years and the Lions would like that $51 million now. At least that's the way I see it; then again, I have been all over the map myself concerning this signing and to be honest I don't really know which way this is going. We all had better batten down the hatches for a wild three or four day ride.

[a700hitter]

he knows that there is nothing more to squeeze out of the red sox? That is one of the funniest lines in yrs. Isnt this the same team that just sign JDL Drew to 70 mil over 5 yrs' date=' prompting some high level GMs to call it the worst FA deal...EVER. The sox have cash to spare and Boras knows this.[/quote']On the low end the Red Sox are at $90 million for this guy. On the high end they are at $110 million. Seibu is getting $51.5 million for a guy that will be walking in a year or two. It doesn't take a genius to see who has more to give here. Why would Boras be talking about three parties in this transaction and saying that one of them cannot be selfish unless he is talking about Seibu? If he thought the Red Sox were being cheap, why would he be talking about a three party deal. As far as I know this is at the juncture of bi-lateral negotiations with the Red Sox. He's clearly pressuring Seibu. Do the Red Sox have more money? Yes, but they are not going to give a blank check to a whore like Boras. The will be spending more than $100 million on this guy. I am sure that $100 million exceeded Boras expectations. He's pissed about the split.

[seabeachfred]

We'll get him.

 

Thanks Coco. A little optimism can go a long way. Man, has this been a ride or what? :D

[BoSox34]

Thanks Coco. A little optimism can go a long way. Man' date=' has this been a ride or what? :D [/quote']

 

<_ :dunno:>

[seabeachfred]

<_ :dunno:>

 

Bo, those icons might be more appropriate at the end of the week but hopefully we will get this thing done. What's your take. Do we get him or not?