Trading Manny

[rician blast]

Christ' date=' Callaghan's article is a contributor to Manny being dealt for less than we all think the Sox should have received. How does it help the hometown team for the local media to churn out bizarre articles that demean the trading commodity during the freaking negotiations? For f#%^'s sake, Callaghan, who the hell are you rooting for?[/quote']

 

He's rooting for the FO to be able to move Manny and for the fans to turn on Manny at the same time.

 

Callie is a pole-smoker.

[Mr Crunchy]

is that your argument for trading manny?

calling me a moron??

 

you should be antiquing over by the pink elephant in essex rather than discussing the merits of keeping or trading ramirez.

moron??

moi??

evidently this dialogue is too much for you to handle.

 

go get yourself a wine spritzer and a pedicure lest your thong end up in a tight knot where your scrotum should be.

[Beckett95]

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5742&PHPSESSID=ef454874a11400022d4fa10ee8259cf6

 

Sox turned down a deal of Broxton and Laroche for Manny

[jacksonianmarch]

are they f***ing crazy? They likely passed up the best deal they will be offered.

[Beckett95]

Your probably right, which leave me to wonder if they are just shopping Manny just to please him and once again have no intention of moving him

[jacksonianmarch]

Your probably right' date=' which leave me to wonder if they are just shopping Manny just to please him and once again have no intention of moving him[/quote']

 

That is a dangerous game. VERY dangerous. All this posturing has put the media in a tizzy like never before. And we all know that about half of their viewership takes what these fools say seriously and it would create a very hostile environment in fenway toward manny. Add to that another yr of him being twisted in the wind and he will be pissed. At the same time, the sox have lost all their bullpen options and are saying that they are going into 07 with a set-up man in Timlin and no closer with no middle or long relief to found. There is a hole at SS that may or may not be filled by Lugo, and if he goes elsewhere, then the sox are stuck with a DP combo of Cora and Pedroia which would essentially guarantee a pathetic 8/9 in the order and leave the sox without a good leadoff hitter for the 2nd yr in a row.

 

But at the same time, baseball is all about value, actual and perceived and there is no deal that will bring back the same value. But if the sox could fill their needs while avoiding a major shitstorm which will happen in ST should Manny be kept, then I think they do it. I think they sent the hounds out looking for blood in anticipation of this deal just so it will be swallowed better. But at the same time, the flow of negative info cannot be stopped once started as these media queers keep spewing their garbage. Everyone may be happier if Manny is dealt. The sox may fill holes, manny may be happier anywhere else and the sox/media (one and the same) will have to find another star to torture. But will the sox be better in 2007 because of it? In 08? 09? Who knows.

 

Consider for a second the dodgers deal, which is the best deal they will be offered (IMHO). LaRoche is ready for the bigs, and putting him at 3rd means Lowell or Youk get moved for a middle reliever (not an elite one, but a good 7th inning guy lets say). So that leaves a pen of Broxton closing, Timlin setting up and Reliever X in the 7th inning role while Tavares and Gabbard long relieve and DelCarmen and Hansen have mopup duty. Not a bad pen, but one that looks very similar to the one that sprung holes last season, but at least the holes are patched going into the season. Assume the sox sign Lugo, and move WMP into LF and move Drew to RF. That lineup becomes immediately succeptible to the lefty pitcher with the two biggest bashers being left handed. And what has their nemesis, the NYY done, they go out and get the best lefty available from Japan and are on the verge of signing Pettitte. To go along with Johnson, that team will be very tough on the sox and the loss of Ramirez will be felt 19 times per yr. That lineup becomes weak in my opinion, relying on two rookies and a middle of the order with Ortiz, Drew, and WMP. Ortiz will get walked a ton, Drew will get matched up with lefties and swinging wily will K 200 times. Tough call for theo.

[Beckett95]

The angels are said to be interested in acquiring Laroche from the Braves for possibly Chone Figgins or possibly Ervin Santana

 

What about Manny/Youk for Laroche/Shields/Cabrera??

 

Something like that

[jacksonianmarch]

If the angels get LaRoche then they are out of the Manny sweeps.

[Beckett95]

boston.com

 

"I don't see it happening,'' Francona said when asked about the likelihood of a deal. "Everyone hears the whispers. I don't think it's any big secret that there are times of the year that he feels Boston is closing in on him.

 

"But he still shows up to play. You put that bat behind David [Ortiz], that's when we're rolling. That's the biggest part of the devastation of our lineup. Rather than doing something different, you have to swallow, turn your head, take a deep breath. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. We all have warts, we're not perfect.''

 

That's a definitive statement as to where the Manny talks stand after two days here in the winter meetings. The Dodgers haven't talked to the Sox since yesterday, and one Sox source dismissed all the talk about three-way deals involving the Nationals with the (choose one) Angels, Mariners, or Giants.

 

"The Nationals are putting that out,'' said one baseball official whose team has been involved in Manny talks.

 

Remember, as I keep repeating, these situations are very fluid, but if a deal were close, Francona almost certainly would have danced around the question instead of predicting Manny will be back. In his media session just before going on the radio, he also was very careful not to criticize Ramirez, and said he did not share the concern Curt Schilling expressed on the radio last week that the Sox thought Manny might lay down (that's a paraphrase of Schilling's quotes) if he's back next season.

 

Hey, do I think he still could be traded? Sure, if a team buckles and decides to give the Sox all they're asking for. But it seems like the probabilities have shifted toward Manny staying.

[jacksonianmarch]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2006/12/tito_on_manny_d.html

 

francona doubts a trade will take place. The media will keep spinning.

[AirPantapas]

This might be the reason why they have waited so long to sign Drew, Keep manny put Wily Mo in RF, trade Manny sign JD Drew and move Wily Mo to LF

[Mr Crunchy]

im not concerned about randy johnson and andy petitte

i was in 1998 but not now

 

today

as it was yesterday and will be tommorow is about pitching and pitching depth and do we have enuff.....

 

i dont feel we can count on much of a return for lowell or youk in a deal

broxton appears to be a horse out of the pen,the real deal

97K's 33bbs in 77ip?

exactly what we could use for a closer

 

if we move manny our O would be decimated even if we bring in drew and another decent stick aboard,nobody can protect ortiz like manny

 

i expect a good season out of crisp

i think youk could be a good #2 hitter with his patience and obp#s

pena at 3 papi at 4 a righty at 5 and drew will be a decent look at 6

7tek

8ss

92b

and we may be able to survive if we have the consistant pitching we had in 04

[jacksonianmarch]

Mr. C. If you move Manny you essentially rip apart the only thing the sox have that has consistently creamed lefties in that lineup. The ball he hit last yr over the monster has been sighted orbiting Jupiter, yet its fire trail makes it a little hard to see clearly. He is a right handed monster, the perfect compliment for Ortiz. If you remove Manny and place Drew in his place, then any lefty worth their salt will decimate the sox middle of the order.

 

Just to give you an idea, Manny was 4-5 2HR a double, 3BB and 6RBI last season vs RJ. If the sox move Manny and fill LF with WMP and RF with Drew yet keep Cora at SS, then here are your OPS vs lefties in the lineup.

 

1. Crisp CF .736

2. Youkilis 1B .791

3. Ortiz DH .988

4. WMP LF .660

5. Drew RF .716

6. Lowell 3B .695

7. Varitek C .688

8. Cora SS .776

9. Pedroia 2B .505

 

Ortiz is the only guy with great production vs lefties and that still is 50 point below where he was on the season. Other than that, nobody is over .800. Now you are trying to tell me that a rotation with 3 lefties in it wont benefit the yankees coming into BOS? Manny was the lone force vs lefties last yr with an OPS approaching 1.1. He destroyed RJ as well.

[riverside sluggers]

Its nowhere near to think about Cora as the everyday shortstop, Lugo is favored to be the starter still. I threw up when I saw him in your lineup

[jacksonianmarch]

Its nowhere near to think about Cora as the everyday shortstop' date=' Lugo is favored to be the starter still. I threw up when I saw him in your lineup[/quote']

 

If the sox dont pony up for Lugo, that may be your reality.

[Beckett95]

id like to see them hold on to Manny for atleast this year and possibly trade him next year. I dont see much of a good market for Manny anymore with the Dodgers slowly falling out.

 

07:

LF--Manny

CF--Drew

RF--Willy Mo

 

move Crisp for a RP

 

08:

LF--Willy Mo

CF--Ellbsury

RF--Drew

 

trade Manny for 3B/P next offseason

[jacksonianmarch]

Lugo's OPS vs lefties was WORSE than Cora's at .718 (60 points below how he hit vs righties). It doesnt help much aside from adding speed.

[jacksonianmarch]

id like to see them hold on to Manny for atleast this year and possibly trade him next year. I dont see much of a good market for Manny anymore with the Dodgers slowly falling out.

 

07:

LF--Manny

CF--Drew

RF--Willy Mo

 

move Crisp for a RP

 

08:

LF--Willy Mo

CF--Ellbsury

RF--Drew

 

trade Manny for 3B/P next offseason

 

each yr that passes is more value that ticks off Manny. 35 is still 2 or 3 good yrs of production. 36, you are down to 1 or 2.

[Mr Crunchy]

jackson has a point

but jackson,the men today work so much harder to stay in shape than they did even 15 years ago

as his contract goes down i feel his value actually goes up

 

was it in 02+03 the sox waived him there were no takers....none

now?

there are several teams looking for him and i assume 30 that could use him

[jacksonianmarch]

jackson has a point

but jackson,the men today work so much harder to stay in shape than they did even 15 years ago

as his contract goes down i feel his value actually goes up

 

was it in 02+03 the sox waived him there were no takers....none

now?

there are several teams looking for him and i assume 30 that could use him

 

right now is about as high as his value will go. His contract is now considered a bargain and he still has a reasonable amount of years left as a top line commodity (you should hope). But this isnt like he is 25 anymore. Each yr that passes is a millisecond that falls off his bat speed, is a 5-10% increase in chance of injury, and is a 100% increase in media ******** thrown his way. For those reasons, this is the yr to do it if it is going to get done.

 

I can see it now, Manny gets kept and the media follows him around like a dog. "Manny's bowel movements were a little loose today. That bastard must have been doggin it, what a f***er. Consider him s***ing on all your collective heads!".

[Mr Crunchy]

point taken sir

very eloquently stated for the record

 

i'd like to lock manny in a room with tony mazz,buckley,shaughnessy and callahan

give manny the bat

[jacksonianmarch]

point taken sir

very eloquently stated for the record

 

i'd like to lock manny in a room with tony mazz,buckley,shaughnessy and callahan

give manny the bat

 

I'm not a sox fan, but man would I love that. I hate Longshanks. He has run more stars out of town yet claims he is doing his civic duty. Here is to hoping Manny would make him suffer before delivering the final blow.

[MANNYHOF24]

I'm not a sox fan' date=' but man would I love that. I hate Longshanks. He has run more stars out of town yet claims he is doing his civic duty. Here is to hoping Manny would make him suffer before delivering the final blow.[/quote']

 

I think Manny will have about 2 years left without much decline playing LF, and after that he will pretty much become a DH. A DH that will be able to get 30-35 Jacks still.

[Moose]

http://www.projo.com/sharedcontent/membership/join.jsp?fw=http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20061205_05sox.32bc3a5.html

 

"Late yesterday afternoon, a rumor floated through the hotel that the Sox, Dodgers and Houston Astros were working on a complicated deal that would have sent Ramirez to L.A., Brad Penny to Houston and Loney and Morgan Ensberg to the Sox."

 

Manny to LA

Penny to HOU

Ensberg and Loney to BOS

 

OMFG, I love this deal. Now I want Manny in Dodger Blue!

[jacksonianmarch]

http://www.projo.com/sharedcontent/membership/join.jsp?fw=http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20061205_05sox.32bc3a5.html

 

"Late yesterday afternoon, a rumor floated through the hotel that the Sox, Dodgers and Houston Astros were working on a complicated deal that would have sent Ramirez to L.A., Brad Penny to Houston and Loney and Morgan Ensberg to the Sox."

 

Manny to LA

Penny to HOU

Ensberg and Loney to BOS

 

OMFG, I love this deal. Now I want Manny in Dodger Blue!

 

that would be very very funny. Ensberg hit .235 last yr in Minute Maid launching pad.

[Mr Crunchy]

ive lived here my whole life outside of some winters in miami banging nails

we tend to eat our own as fans IF we perceive the athlete underachieved or didnt put forth his best effort or lied to the fans or tuned up his girlfriend or whatever

 

dennis oil can boyd broke down when he didnt make the allstar team

the fans ate him up over it but it was the media that did the hatchet job on him

THE CAN WAS SEEN IN A PLAYGROUND IN CHELSEA IN A DRUG INFESTED NEIGHBORHOOD

truth?

the truth was he was playing hoop with some black and spanish kids in a drug infested neighborhood....which if youve been or lived in chelsea you'd know that there arent any non drug infested neighborhoods certainly not circa 1986.

 

the boston media is just brutal

from shank to buckley(remember his picture in the herald with the goatee??) to callahan to tony""i have no testicles"" mazz

 

these fuking guys need to be punished physically

 

i was listening to larry merchant commenting on a fight last weekend on HBO

couple of mexican kids going 12 rounds of nonstop action...beautiful fight

anyways old larry was sternly correcting roy jones jr on the art of counterpunching??

larry merchant 5'6 225lbs of lard telling 1 of the best middleweights ever how it was??

unreal

i was thrown out of the late jimmy youngs place(rather physically) in nyc 20 years ago for threatening larry merchant after the hagler/mustapha hamsho fight in madison square garden

if i ever see him again the old prick is getting dusted for the good of all of us.

 

my only question is why this no nothing no talent ass clown isnt writing for the globe or herald

[Moose]

I know, I know. That trade will never happen. My first reaction was, "No f***ing way the Red Sox will accept that."

[Cocos Disciples]

Why would we do that deal when theres no real need for both a 1B and 3B, and we could easily get better deals.

[jacksonianmarch]

ive lived here my whole life outside of some winters in miami banging nails

we tend to eat our own as fans IF we perceive the athlete underachieved or didnt put forth his best effort or lied to the fans or tuned up his girlfriend or whatever

 

dennis oil can boyd broke down when he didnt make the allstar team

the fans ate him up over it but it was the media that did the hatchet job on him

THE CAN WAS SEEN IN A PLAYGROUND IN CHELSEA IN A DRUG INFESTED NEIGHBORHOOD

truth?

the truth was he was playing hoop with some black and spanish kids in a drug infested neighborhood....which if youve been or lived in chelsea you'd know that there arent any non drug infested neighborhoods certainly not circa 1986.

 

the boston media is just brutal

from shank to buckley(remember his picture in the herald with the goatee??) to callahan to tony""i have no testicles"" mazz

 

these fuking guys need to be punished physically

 

i was listening to larry merchant commenting on a fight last weekend on HBO

couple of mexican kids going 12 rounds of nonstop action...beautiful fight

anyways old larry was sternly correcting roy jones jr on the art of counterpunching??

larry merchant 5'6 225lbs of lard telling 1 of the best middleweights ever how it was??

unreal

i was thrown out of the late jimmy youngs place(rather physically) in nyc 20 years ago for threatening larry merchant after the hagler/mustapha hamsho fight in madison square garden

if i ever see him again the old prick is getting dusted for the good of all of us.

 

my only question is why this no nothing no talent ass clown isnt writing for the globe or herald

 

I am not terribly familiar with those other guys, but sounds like the Boston media takes classes in

 

Asshology 101

Career ruining 202 (advanced class)

Conceit 101

Deception 400 (Honors level)

and finally Anal Ramming 500 (the globe writers teach this one).

[Mr Crunchy]

has anyone seen jackie macmullen and dan shaughnessy in the same room??