Sox, Boras Oceans Apart in negotiations

[jacksonianmarch]

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=169222&srvc=sports

 

It looks like Boras is asking for 15 mil a season and the first offer was for 7-8mil a season. It is starting.

 

The also go on to say that this is altering their chances of landing other needed parts. It is obvious in the bullpen where guys like Speier, Walker, Weather, and now Baez have agreed to deals. The worry in the herald is that this will also take time away from the Lugo negotiations which is considered by some to be the sox negotiations to lose. Very interesting stuff.

[jsinger121]

Meet in the middle at 11.5/12 million and get the deal done.

[rician blast]

In Massarotti's article (link within the initial post of this thread) it is stated that:

 

"With Drew signed, the Sox could go with an outfield of Drew, Coco Crisp and Wily Mo Pena. Ramirez could then be used as a bargaining chip to address a collection of smaller needs, be they in the bullpen or on the bench."

 

 

That's not exactly an OF that warms my heart.

[TedWilliams101]

Ya, an offense without Manny, or another hitter of his caliber (which are very rare and hard to find...) is not going to be putting this team in a good place. The idea of trading Ramirez to "fill smaller needs" is rediculious. Two relievers and utilityman doesn't come close to equaling the value of Ramirez.

 

And why would we even consider talking with the Giants about trading Manny? They have absolutely nothing valuable on that team. Quit trying to trade manny and figure out how to please him here in Beantown.

[seabeachfred]

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=169222&srvc=sports

 

It looks like Boras is asking for 15 mil a season and the first offer was for 7-8mil a season. It is starting.

 

The also go on to say that this is altering their chances of landing other needed parts. It is obvious in the bullpen where guys like Speier, Walker, Weather, and now Baez have agreed to deals. The worry in the herald is that this will also take time away from the Lugo negotiations which is considered by some to be the sox negotiations to lose. Very interesting stuff.

 

What's so irritating is that so many of us saw this coming while it seems Theo was snoozing once again. We have multiple needs and should be out there signing Drew, Lugo and trading Pena and or Crisp or Murphy or Hinske or Delcarmen or Hansen for experienced relief help and we seem crippled. What seemed like a optimistic feeling just moments ago has now made me feel like we are in a revolving door with no way out. If that story is true we could win up with NOBODY, Drew and Lugo going elsewhere, Matsu back to Japan, and the Red Sox stuck with a mediocrity like Cora at short and a worthless defensive liability as Pena patrolling RF---a true recipe for disaster. We have to get going, sign Drew and Lugo and worry about Matsu after we get something done first.:thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown

[ORS]

One, the article is from Mazz, who has been proponent of the whole, "they just posted that much to block the Yankees" line of thinking. It should come as no surprise that Mazz was able to find a "source" that supports his original theory. Since this source is unamed, we don't know if he actually works for the FO or if he just works at the gas station where John Henry fills up every morining.

 

Two, the article is from Mazz.

 

Three, virtually every negotiation with Boras starts with extreme offers from both sides.

 

Four, the article is from Mazz.

 

That about covers it.

[jsinger121]

What's so irritating is that so many of us saw this coming while it seems Theo was snoozing once again. We have multiple needs and should be out there signing Drew' date=' Lugo and trading Pena and or Crisp or Murphy or Hinske or Delcarmen or Hansen for experienced relief help and we seem crippled. What seemed like a optimistic feeling just moments ago has now made me feel like we are in a revolving door with no way out. If that story is true we could win up with NOBODY, Drew and Lugo going elsewhere, Matsu back to Japan, and the Red Sox stuck with a mediocrity like Cora at short and a worthless defensive liability as Pena patrolling RF---a true recipe for disaster. We have to get going, sign Drew and Lugo and worry about Matsu after we get something done first.:thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown[/quote']

 

It called negotiating. Maybe you have never heard about it. But thats how negotiations start. You never agree to Boras intial proposal. They will meet in the middle eventually. You really have no clue sometimes about how these things work especially with Scott Boras. This article has not changed my feeling on this deal at all. I think it will get done and not an article on the intial proposal will change that. Every chance you get you just want an opportunity to rip theo.

[seabeachfred]

It called negotiating. Maybe you have never heard about it. But thats how negotiations start. You never agree to Boras intial proposal. They will meet in the middle eventually. You really have no clue sometimes about how these things work especially with Scott Boras. This article has not changed my feeling on this deal at all. I think it will get done and not an article on the intial proposal will change that. Every chance you get you just want an opportunity to rip theo.

 

Jsing, jog your memory if you will and hark back to around this time last year. You probably were also thinking about negotiations with Damon and would be give and take and that eventually they would meet a middle ground and Damon would be back with the Red Sox. Just about everybody did. I didn't. I know Boras better than you may think and I knew Johnny was gone. I know Boras because I once had the chance to meet Ken Williams, GM of the White Sox. We will NOT do business with Boras or any of his clients, and once a players signs with him he is gone from the White Sox. Boras will play hard ball all the way and if he doesn't get almost all of what he wants he will reject the deal out of hand. It is interesting for you to tell me I have no clue, but, believe me, while you may know things about Theo that I don't, I have Boras tagged a hell of a lot better than you do.

[Bosoxwest]

The Matsuzaka negotiations bear no resemblance to other Boras negotiations. He can only negotiate with the Sox unless he wants to enter a very risky area, and alienate his player who by ALL accounts is dying to play in MLB this season. In spite of his being the anti-christ, Boras has some small interest in doing what DM wants, and Borass himself of course has a vested interest in getting the deal done now, too. I don't think he particularly wants to wait two more years of 140-pitch count games to get back to the table.

 

Both sides (mostly the Sox though) also benefit from presenting a wide gulf between their pricepoints, in that Seibu is strapped for cash, and may be enticed to kick in a little to get this done. If the deal looks too easy they can just sit back and watch. Both Boras and Theo want to get them to the table.

[seabeachfred]

The Matsuzaka negotiations bear no resemblance to other Boras negotiations. He can only negotiate with the Sox unless he wants to enter a very risky area, and alienate his player who by ALL accounts is dying to play in MLB this season. In spite of his being the anti-christ, Boras has some small interest in doing what DM wants, and Borass himself of course has a vested interest in getting the deal done now, too. I don't think he particularly wants to wait two more years of 140-pitch count games to get back to the table.

 

Both sides (mostly the Sox though) also benefit from presenting a wide gulf between their pricepoints, in that Seibu is strapped for cash, and may be enticed to kick in a little to get this done. If the deal looks too easy they can just sit back and watch. Both Boras and Theo want to get them to the table.

 

Bosox, that certainly is a different take and I certainly hope you are right in your assertions because to blow this deal would mean a black eye for the Red Sox and Theo's undoing as a hero to many Red Sox fans. I haveto admit I am getting very antsy and all this non-action, not only the negotiations with Daisuke but nothing in the way of progress with Drew and Lugo, trade talks for relief pitchers, or anything of the kind. Something has to break and soon in my opinion or we just might miss out on the players we need.

[schillingouttheks]

Jsing' date=' jog your memory if you will and hark back to around this time last year. You probably were also thinking about negotiations with Damon and would be give and take and that eventually they would meet a middle ground and Damon would be back with the Red Sox. Just about everybody did. I didn't. I know Boras better than you may think and I knew Johnny was gone. I know Boras because I once had the chance to meet Ken Williams, GM of the White Sox. We will NOT do business with Boras or any of his clients, and once a players signs with him he is gone from the White Sox. Boras will play hard ball all the way and if he doesn't get almost all of what he wants he will reject the deal out of hand. It is interesting for you to tell me I have no clue, but, believe me, while you may know things about Theo that I don't, I have Boras tagged a hell of a lot better than you do.[/quote']

 

Boras doesn't have the leverage that he normally has. He can't threaten the Red Sox with suggestions about Matsuzaka going to another team, since the Red Sox have exclusive negotiation rights to Matsuzaka. It's either Boston or Japan. I think the NPL would be pissed at Boras if he didn't get a deal done with Boston. Additionally, it would hurt Boras's reputation with players that want to head to the MLB from Japan....they wouldn't go through Boras if they knew he was stubborn and inflexible.

 

While I agree with you about Boras in normal circumstances, this is anything but one. The reason that Boras is so capable of getting what he wants is because someone will give it to him when there's a wide range of interested teams. The only team Matsuzaka can go to is the Red Sox, or he'll find himself back in Japan pitching for the Seibu Lions waiting another year or 2 to pitch in the MLB. If he doesn't get a deal done with Boston, his relations with Japanese players will be damaged and he'll be a less popular choice for Japanese players looking to play in the MLB. So, basically, it's in everyone's best interest to get a deal done by compromising to 11-12 million per year, and having Matsuzaka pitching where he wants to. I think people tend to forget that if there's a platform on which everyone can be happy, that's where they tend to go. No one's stubborn enough to get ONLY what they without thinking about the interest of the other side.

 

EDIT: Whoops, didn't realize that Bosox essentially said the same thing, but I have some other stuff in here. I was dying to jump into the conversation

[Bosoxwest]

Bosox' date=' that certainly is a different take and I certainly hope you are right in your assertions because to blow this deal would mean a black eye for the Red Sox and Theo's undoing as a hero to many Red Sox fans. I haveto admit I am getting very antsy and all this non-action, not only the negotiations with Daisuke but nothing in the way of progress with Drew and Lugo, trade talks for relief pitchers, or anything of the kind. Something has to break and soon in my opinion or we just might miss out on the players we need.[/quote']

 

I can understand the stress, believe me. Apparently the Drew signing is very close though, according to the Courant. I think a lot of the other pieces may hinge on that getting done.

 

I wouldn't worry overmuch about the Matsuzaka deal though; everyone involved needs to get it sewed up.

[jsinger121]

Theo also wanted to keep the Matsuzaka negotiations as quiet as possible.

[SCM33]

One, the article is from Mazz, who has been proponent of the whole, "they just posted that much to block the Yankees" line of thinking. It should come as no surprise that Mazz was able to find a "source" that supports his original theory. Since this source is unamed, we don't know if he actually works for the FO or if he just works at the gas station where John Henry fills up every morining.

 

Two, the article is from Mazz.

 

Three, virtually every negotiation with Boras starts with extreme offers from both sides.

 

Four, the article is from Mazz.

 

That about covers it.

 

 

 

That just about sums it up. Look guys, its going to get done. There is no pitching on the market. We control the best guy out there right now and Theo understands this. You didnt think Boras wasnt going to try to squeeze us like he does with every player every year did you?

 

Its frigin Boras, of course they are way off. The frigin Yankees are way off in terms of Boras asking price.

[seabeachfred]

That just about sums it up. Look guys, its going to get done. There is no pitching on the market. We control the best guy out there right now and Theo understands this. You didnt think Boras wasnt going to try to squeeze us like he does with every player every year did you?

 

Its frigin Boras, of course they are way off. The frigin Yankees are way off in terms of Boras asking price.

 

Chin Man, I can only speak for myself and not for others, but from what I been hearing here and on other boards there are many of us who are starting to get a little worried about the lack of any concrete action on our part. Players have been signing contracts left and right and we have done nothing. I think if Theo could ink of the players we need it would at least give us some reason to think we are making progress. Until I see something of that order I think we are just standing still.

[TheKilo]

Chin Man' date=' I can only speak for myself and not for others, but from what I been hearing here and on other boards there are many of us who are starting to get a little worried about the lack of any concrete action on our part. Players have been signing contracts left and right and we have done nothing. I think if Theo could ink of the players we need it would at least give us some reason to think we are making progress. Until I see something of that order I think we are just standing still.[/quote']

 

 

 

Why would Matsuzaka and Boras be in a rush to ge the deal done with the first offer?

 

Why can't the Red Sox be holding multiple negotiations at once?

[seabeachfred]

Why would Matsuzaka and Boras be in a rush to ge the deal done with the first offer?

 

Why can't the Red Sox be holding multiple negotiations at once?

 

Well, they should be doing that but I wonder if they are. No news on anything except another day of dealing with Boras for Matsuzaka has come and gone and nothing done.

[TheKilo]

Well' date=' they should be doing that but I wonder if they are. No news on anything except another day of dealing with Boras for Matsuzaka has come and gone and nothing done.[/quote']

 

 

They said from the start that the entire negotiation process would be very quiet.

[Gom]

As much as I would love to see the negotiations collapse, Matsuzaka will sign with the Red Sox for close to what Boras wants. He's got Drew, and has the Sox over the barrel. Once you see Drew signed or Ramirez traded, expect to see all of it fall into place.

[Ray10]

I say the Sox need to negotiate with Boras still but also adress their other problems. They need to remember that there are a few other players out there they need to sign and not just Matsukaza.

[seabeachfred]

I say the Sox need to negotiate with Boras still but also adress their other problems. They need to remember that there are a few other players out there they need to sign and not just Matsukaza.

 

Right now Ray we signed squat, not one signing and the days are starting to dwindle by. I know Theo like to play it close to his vest but this is pure bull#$%^!!!!! If they are going to spend all their time in the Matsu dealings our other problems are not going to be addressed. And why the hell to they want to trade Manny anyway? Are they in line for someone of near ability or do they want to see how nice it looks for Papi to lay his bat down and slowly trot to first after his 250th walk?

[ORS]

Right now Ray we signed squat' date=' not one signing and the days are starting to dwindle by. I know Theo like to play it close to his vest but this is pure bull#$%^!!!!! If they are going to spend all their time in the Matsu dealings our other problems are not going to be addressed. And why the hell to they want to trade Manny anyway? Are they in line for someone of near ability or do they want to see how nice it looks for Papi to lay his bat down and slowly trot to first after his 250th walk?[/quote']

The arb deadline still hasn't passed, FYI. You are more impatient than a young, virgin seaman with a pocket full of cash at a port city brothel.

[edge4414]

Right now Ray we signed squat' date=' not one signing and the days are starting to dwindle by. I know Theo like to play it close to his vest but this is pure bull#$%^!!!!! If they are going to spend all their time in the Matsu dealings our other problems are not going to be addressed. And why the hell to they want to trade Manny anyway? Are they in line for someone of near ability or do they want to see how nice it looks for Papi to lay his bat down and slowly trot to first after his 250th walk?[/quote']

 

Do you have any idea how this works. Dec 1st is the arb deadline, if there is any doubt a player will be offered arb the teams wait until after Dec 1. This is not new it happens every year. Relax!!

[seabeachfred]

The arb deadline still hasn't passed' date=' FYI. You are more impatient than a young, virgin seaman with a pocket full of cash at a port city brothel.[/quote']

 

Oh to me young again. That was me over 40 years ago but it was as a soldier up at Fort Ord, but ,yes, you are right. I am impatient for things to happen. This arbitration nonsense has never resonated with me. We hold ourselves hostages because we don't want to give up a draft choice who most likely will never amount to much and take our chances on losing out on some prime free agents. That may seem to be the right thing to do from where you sit, but to me the price of a draft choice is worth it if we can get the players we need to compete for a title next year. it didn't seem to concern the Cubs, Mets, Rangers, Angels and other teams who went ahead and signed players and it shouldn't concern us. If the players we need are grabbed by other teams while we worry about draft picks we probably will be worse off next season than we were at the end of the current one. Screw the draft choices---I want players who can help us win next season and right now we don't have them. I did like your reference, though. It brought back some memories.

[example1]

Do you have any idea how this works. Dec 1st is the arb deadline' date=' if there is any doubt a player will be offered arb the teams wait until after Dec 1. This is not new it happens every year. Relax!![/quote']

 

Would knowing someone like Lugo's arbitration fate change the liklihood that the Sox want to sign him? If he's an 'A' do they not go after him? I'm all for getting prospects and draft picks, all things being equal. But it seems that with someone like Lugo at least they could have locked him up. He's probably leaving Los Angeles and, if offered arbitration, would likely turn it down, right?

 

I'm probably confused about that part of the process... :dunno:

[jacksonianmarch]

Theo also wanted to keep the Matsuzaka negotiations as quiet as possible.

 

apparently they arent being kept secret at all. The sox ownership group is flying to Japan, likely to ask Seibu to kick some of the posting fee to Matsuzaka to finance his journey to BOS. This is a shady move IMHO and should not be allowed. They posted the fee, now they get the opportunity to use it one the guy who is about to be signed? That goes against the very nature of the posting process. Here is to hoping that the process gets obliterated after this yr.

 

For the link, check rotoworld, the cpu is quirky here.

[jacksonianmarch]

Oh to me young again. That was me over 40 years ago but it was as a soldier up at Fort Ord' date=' but ,yes, you are right. I am impatient for things to happen. This arbitration nonsense has never resonated with me. We hold ourselves hostages because we don't want to give up a draft choice who most likely will never amount to much and take our chances on losing out on some prime free agents. That may seem to be the right thing to do from where you sit, but to me the price of a draft choice is worth it if we can get the players we need to compete for a title next year. it didn't seem to concern the Cubs, Mets, Rangers, Angels and other teams who went ahead and signed players and it shouldn't concern us. If the players we need are grabbed by other teams while we worry about draft picks we probably will be worse off next season than we were at the end of the current one. Screw the draft choices---I want players who can help us win next season and right now we don't have them. I did like your reference, though. It brought back some memories.[/quote']

 

I agree with you seabeach. Thing is, most of the guys the sox will be going after are no-brainers for arbitration. The dodgers will offer Lugo arbitration as well as Drew, so expect to lose a first and a second from this yr. Loretta will sign somewhere else, unless he accepts arbitration which would then screw the sox even further. He may be the only guy who could net the sox a 1st rounder back, but it will certainly be risky to offer him arb, because there is the chance he could take it.

[BSN07]

Of course there oceans apart. Is anyone surprised? I'm not. Boras comes in hi, Sox come in low, and they will meet in the middle. How else do you think negotiations work? It will get done, this is just RSN worrying and getting antsy because the only people we signed are Cora, Wake and Timlin. Stop worrying because we haven't signed new players everyday. The media is in the dark as much as we are and can only speculate, so don't listen to them either. There mad because it will be one of the biggest offseason stories and they have skwaaadush to write on it at the moment. Wait and see what happens then bitch or praise about it.

[ORS]

apparently they arent being kept secret at all. The sox ownership group is flying to Japan, likely to ask Seibu to kick some of the posting fee to Matsuzaka to finance his journey to BOS. This is a shady move IMHO and should not be allowed. They posted the fee, now they get the opportunity to use it one the guy who is about to be signed? That goes against the very nature of the posting process. Here is to hoping that the process gets obliterated after this yr.

 

For the link, check rotoworld, the cpu is quirky here.

It happened with Ichiro, so it wouldn't surprise me if every teams' post amount included a provision for this kickback. Here's to hoping your cpu goes apeshit and you can't share your addled thoughts anymore.

[riverside sluggers]

http://www.nbcsports.com/mlb/495258/detail.html

 

Lucchino has made an offer to Matsuzaka that he calls "fair and comprehensive, and offers a great deal of security and a substantial level of compensation."