Worst Move Of Theo's Career?

[a700hitter]

It seems to me that he had plenty of money offered to him' date=' but that he left as a matter of principle because he had taken too much abuse from his boss. I don't call that selfish or whiney, I call that principled and admirable.[/quote']He would have been principled had he refused to come back. He came back to the same organization with the same people that he found so intolerable that he left.

[CrespoBlows]

Boras makes baseball worse.

 

Because he does his job? Scott Boras doesn't make baseball worse, the rules of MLB make baseball worse.

[example1]

He would have been principled had he refused to come back. He came back to the same organization with the same people that he found so intolerable that he left.

 

Lucchino was the only one he found intolerable. He had completely different relations with LL and with Henry and Warner. He liked the ownership but hated all of the added stress from his boss. Henry promoted him, hired him back and now he has quite a bit more autonomy. Have you heard many leaks from the Sox FO this year? I think its a different beast altogether.

[example1]

Because he does his job? Scott Boras doesn't make baseball worse' date=' the rules of MLB make baseball worse.[/quote']

 

He makes it bad because he does his job so much better than anyone else. The man is an extorsionist. Yes, he also does his job.

[CrespoBlows]

He makes it bad because he does his job so much better than anyone else. The man is an extorsionist. Yes' date=' he also does his job.[/quote']

 

How is the guy an extortionist? He is merely getting the best contract for his players. He also can't be an extortionist, because he doesn't force anyone to sign his players.

[example1]

How is the guy an extortionist? He is merely getting the best contract for his players. He also can't be an extortionist' date=' because he doesn't force anyone to sign his players.[/quote']

 

The guy sets up false bidding wars between teams in order to eeke more money out of teams. Sorry man, I just don't hold the guy on a pedestal at all. If you like him that's fine...

[a700hitter]

Lucchino was the only one he found intolerable. He had completely different relations with LL and with Henry and Warner. He liked the ownership but hated all of the added stress from his boss. Henry promoted him' date=' hired him back and now he has quite a bit more autonomy. Have you heard many leaks from the Sox FO this year? I think its a different beast altogether.[/quote']It's performance has been beastly. What was going to leak out... the moves they didn't make?

[example1]

It's performance has been beastly. What was going to leak out... the moves they didn't make?

 

I think the team's performance has been beastly. I don't remember the part where Theo came out and smashed people up. Look at these injuries man, its absurd. No pitching, limited depth to start the year. No amount of trade could have solidified anything concrete for this season, it would have been a lucky shot at best. Well, that's what the team started out as. I imagine Theo would say that if everyone came through to their potential than this team could contend for 1st place. They were IN first place until the injuries started and they lost their pitching staff. Again, Theo and the FO didn't do that and they're not going to sell away the larger plan because of some contingencies.

[a700hitter]

I think the team's performance has been beastly. I don't remember the part where Theo came out and smashed people up. Look at these injuries man' date=' its absurd. No pitching, limited depth to start the year. No amount of trade could have solidified anything concrete for this season, it would have been a lucky shot at best. Well, that's what the team started out as. I imagine Theo would say that if everyone came through to their potential than this team could contend for 1st place. They were IN first place until the injuries started and they lost their pitching staff. Again, Theo and the FO didn't do that and they're not going to sell away the larger plan because of some contingencies.[/quote']Injuries are part of the game. You can't put together a team that can contend if you have no injuries, because you'll never contend. Most of the contenders have had their share of injuries, not to mention our chief competitors that had several major injuries that they were able to weather. The FO has to take accountability for this, not the players. The players can't be blamed for injuries. The FO is supposed to construct a team deep enough to withstand injuries and to bring in reinforcements as necessary. They did a very poor job. You are letting them slide. They should win an award for making $120 + million disappear.

[example1]

Injuries are part of the game. You can't put together a team that can contend if you have no injuries' date=' because you'll never contend. Most of the contenders have had their share of injuries, not to mention our chief competitors that had several major injuries that they were able to weather. The FO has to take accountability for this, not the players. The players can't be blamed for injuries. The FO is supposed to construct a team deep enough to withstand injuries and to bring in reinforcements as necessary. They did a very poor job. You are letting them slide. They should win an award for making $120 + million disappear.[/quote']

 

This is a team that was tied two days ago for the 8th best record in baseball. They have roughly the same record as St. Louis and Anaheim and would have the third best record in the NL. I know that doesn't justify your 120 million dollar statement, but it certainly disproves that this team is not a contender. The Sox were in first place for most of the season. They had one of the worst months in their history and are still not mathematically eliminated and COULD (theoretically) still come back.

 

I WILL let them slide this season. I'm NOT ready to cut off their heads and demand a new GM or new front office. I think the point of a baseball team is to win 95 games or so a season and to get lucky and have good pitching in the post season. The sox got VERY lucky in both '03 and '04, where they were pinned against the ropes and looked dead. However, they were not unrealistic about this season, you were. The FO has said this would be a retooling year, it has been, and here we are. I'm not surprised by this team's performance at all, except for how polarized the success has been: it's either been great or horrible. I expected (as a worst case scenario) mediocrity throughout the season so I'm not as fatalistic about the future, I guess.

 

They are still one of the better teams in baseball yet you complain like they have as much of a future as the pirates.

[riverside sluggers]

hey im a die hard Sox fan, and I can knowingly admit that there is no hope for this team to come back. What is showing for us to "keep the faith"?

 

Their offense even with papi & Manny back, just isnt good

 

The starting rotation is looking bleak

 

They have no bullpen. Timlin the best guy they have, and thats not saying a lot

 

Wait till next year, in meantime go Patriots!!

[a700hitter]

This is a team that was tied two days ago for the 8th best record in baseball. They have roughly the same record as St. Louis and Anaheim and would have the third best record in the NL. I know that doesn't justify your 120 million dollar statement, but it certainly disproves that this team is not a contender. The Sox were in first place for most of the season. They had one of the worst months in their history and are still not mathematically eliminated and COULD (theoretically) still come back.

 

I WILL let them slide this season. I'm NOT ready to cut off their heads and demand a new GM or new front office. I think the point of a baseball team is to win 95 games or so a season and to get lucky and have good pitching in the post season.

No one is screaming for their heads. It's one thing not to scream for their heads, and it is another thing entirely to give them a free pass. They don't deserve a free pass. At best they made several mistakes. At worst, they did a terrible job.

The sox got VERY lucky in both '03 and '04' date=' where they were pinned against the ropes and looked dead.[/quote']I would not call it luck in '03 and '04. They were flat and under-performing early in those seasons. It was good starting pitching that ignited the winning streaks by those teams. The starters were regularly going 7 innings in those streaks. Heck, John Burkett in '03 looks like Cy Young compared to 4 of the guys we have been regularly sending to the hill lately.

However' date=' they were not unrealistic about this season, you were. The FO has said this would be a retooling year, it has been, and here we are. I'm not surprised by this team's performance at all, except for how polarized the success has been: it's either been great or horrible. I expected (as a worst case scenario) mediocrity throughout the season so I'm not as fatalistic about the future, I guess. [/quote']I'm sorry but my expectations of this 2006 team were not unrealistic. I have been raving and ranting about the personnel on this team since the day Johnny walked. I knew this team sucked. I was furious about signing Seanez and Tavarez. I considered their signings to be a waste of money. How was I being unrealistic? I've been predicting gloom and doom for months. Ask the other posters who consider me to be negative. I think I am being realistic. And what is thei retooling malarkey? Is that an excuse to be crappy because you let All Stars leave your organization and go to other teams to make them playoff teams? Damon, Pedro, Lowe, Cabrera were all key components of the '04 team, and they let them all walk. Keep any two of the four and the '06 team is a playoff team. They didn't have to keep them all. Retooling connotes a high level of competition while changing your roster. Playing like s*** after cutting payroll to the bone while getting a bunch of blue chip prospects in trades is rebuilding. Spending $120+ million while playing like s*** is just bad management.

 

They are still one of the better teams in baseball yet you complain like they have as much of a future as the pirates.

They are 9 games over .500 and slipping. That's not good. Ninth in winning % and slipping, but second in payroll. It seems like our FO has been outmaneuvered by 7 other management teams.

[a700hitter]

Their offense even with papi & Manny back' date=' just isnt good[/quote']Fifth in the league in runs doesn't cut it when only TB, KC and Baltimore have worse pitching.

The starting rotation is looking bleak

It's not looking bleak. It's horrendous. One complete game. They are tied for last in CG and shutouts.

They have no bullpen. Timlin the best guy they have' date=' and thats not saying a lot[/quote']After the bullpen horror show at the end of 2005, it was obvious that the bullpen needed to be rebuilt, and the FO answered with Seanez and Tavarez?:thumbdown It didn't take a lot of great talent evaluators to figure out that these guys were mop up types.

[example1]

I just feel like it is unnecessary to blame this bad season entirely on the FO. I think they had injuries and started the season as deep as anyone else. Imagine if the Yankees didn't have Melky Cabrera waiting in the wings. They had the right guy at the right time. Unfortunately we didn't have a great SP or RF waiting in the minors (or CF or LF at other points). Just one great outfielder and this team may have been okay.

 

It is legitimate to be disappointed, I'm just not that pissed off about it, that's all. And I enjoy looking forward to the future and thinking about options without those discussions constantly revolving around whether or not the FO is competant or not. I believe they are aware of what they do and are likely aware of every argument and counter argument to the situations they encounter. They ultimately have to make a choice and sometimes they're right, sometimes they are wrong. If there is a longer term plan that is going on underneith that will raise the likelihood of them having a competitive team in the next few years then I'm happy. The longer term plan is to develop certain types of players, hold on to good role player/leader types and get some guys off of free agency or through creative trades with money attached.

[mosox]

I'm pretty sure that getting a 26 year old stud for like 8 mill a year' date=' locked up for a few more years, IS part of building for the future.[/quote']

 

Look how he's pitched since getting locked up. He's pitching like a guy who's very comfortable, financially.

[ORS]

The difference is significant. Damon had an offer from a competitor. That is the essence of a negotiation. The Sox didn't up the ante so he left. Theo had no offer from a competitor' date=' and as far as I know he never got any serious interest from any team. He also made those ridiculous statements about being a social worker for a year, and not being able to give his all for the job anymore. It had all the markings of an emotional decision. I've seen hundreds if not thousands of people leave employment for all sorts of reasons. Usually people that leave voluntarily have another job lined up. The few that don't have another job lined up tend to leave for emotional reasons as opposed to financial reasons.[/quote']

What does a competitor have to do with anything? Regardless of the reason, leaving to for more money or leaving because you want more autonomy in your job, where you end up isn't the issue. The issue is the fact that people leave when negotiations don't go the way they like -- keep in mind I'm talking about negotiations with people who make so much money that it won't hurt them financially to be out of work for a while. It happens all the time, but only one person gets credited with having a "hissy-fit" and it's the guy that you clearly don't like.

[a700hitter]

What does a competitor have to do with anything? Regardless of the reason' date=' leaving to for more money or leaving because you want more autonomy in your job, where you end up isn't the issue. The issue is the fact that people leave when negotiations don't go the way they like -- keep in mind I'm talking about negotiations with people who make so much money that it won't hurt them financially to be out of work for a while. It happens all the time, but only one person gets credited with having a "hissy-fit" and it's the guy that you clearly don't like.[/quote']How many times do I have to say it. I like Theo. I was spouting the "in Theo we trust" mantra last year. I can like the guy and disagree with his moves. Can't I? There have been a string of moves since last year that I didn't like and that have proved or are proving to be wrong. If anyone else had done what Theo had done this winter, I would have called it a hissy fit. I thought he reacted emotionally and walked away from his dream job. When he resigned, I immediately thought that he would live to regret it if he couldn't come back. That being said, I was glad that things worked out for him to come back, but I only wished that it didn't take so long. It dragged out too long and IMO it diverted attention from building a good team. Please stop concluding that I don't like Theo. I don't think he is stupid or a bad baseball guy. I think he and they made some very fundamentally poor moves in the last two years. These were serious miscalculations. The injuries compounded these errors and resulted in a disastrous season. Theo is a young guy, and he will make mistakes as he goes along. He is still learning on the job as there is no substitute for experience. I think he is smart enough to modify his plan on the fly without totally abandoning his core strategy. I'm not calling for his head, but realistically you know that if this team doesn't make it back to the playoffs by 2008, there will be a mob of media and fans calling for his head. But I am sorry to disappoint you that I still think he threw a hissy fit in the off-season. That doesn't mean I don't like him. I was happy that he came back despite the hissy fit. If it makes you feel better, I'll call it a temper tantrum.

[a700hitter]

I just feel like it is unnecessary to blame this bad season entirely on the FO. I think they had injuries and started the season as deep as anyone else.

I am not going to lay it all at their feet' date=' but I am not going to absolve them of all blame. Injuries made things much worse and compounded the FO's bad moves to result in an embarrassing team.

If there is a longer term plan that is going on underneith that will raise the likelihood of them having a competitive team in the next few years then I'm happy. The longer term plan is to develop certain types of players, hold on to good role player/leader types and get some guys off of free agency or through creative trades with money attached.

When a team has stars for the ages like Manny and Ortiz that are still in the prime of their careers, I believe that you build around those assets to win now. When these guys are over the hill or gone, mark my words that it will be decades before you see their like again, if ever. I don't care what kind of players they are growing on the farm. It's a million to one shot that they are grooming guys that will be as good as these two. Every great team needs a strong core of stars to build around. The Sox still have two of the best. It's nice to have a good farm to keep a team stocked with deep talent, but Stars or centerpieces likes these guys are rare commodities. In the 70's the competitive teams were built around Yaz (HOF), Rice (HOF Deserving), and Lynn. In the 80's the competitive Sox were built around Clemens (a sure fire Hall of Famer). In the late 90's the competitive teams were built around Pedro. In 39 years of rooting for the Sox, only one HOF pitcher was produced by the farm and that was Clemens. The only other players from the farm that even compare to Rice and Yaz were Nomar and Boggs, and neither were the forces that Rice and Yaz were. In my experience, it is very rare for guys like this to come out of your own system. If you have stars of this caliber, whether they come from within or outside the organization, they have to be built around to win while you have them. You just don't kn ow when you will get stars like this again.

[riverside sluggers]

Dont forget the pre-David Ortiz, Mr. Mo Vaughn

[ORS]

How many times do I have to say it. I like Theo. I was spouting the "in Theo we trust" mantra last year. I can like the guy and disagree with his moves. Can't I? There have been a string of moves since last year that I didn't like and that have proved or are proving to be wrong. If anyone else had done what Theo had done this winter' date=' I would have called it a hissy fit. I thought he reacted emotionally and walked away from his dream job. When he resigned, I immediately thought that he would live to regret it if he couldn't come back. That being said, I was glad that things worked out for him to come back, but I only wished that it didn't take so long. It dragged out too long and IMO it diverted attention from building a good team. Please stop concluding that I don't like Theo. I don't think he is stupid or a bad baseball guy. I think he and they made some very fundamentally poor moves in the last two years. These were serious miscalculations. The injuries compounded these errors and resulted in a disastrous season. Theo is a young guy, and he will make mistakes as he goes along. He is still learning on the job as there is no substitute for experience. I think he is smart enough to modify his plan on the fly without totally abandoning his core strategy. I'm not calling for his head, but realistically you know that if this team doesn't make it back to the playoffs by 2008, there will be a mob of media and fans calling for his head. But I am sorry to disappoint you that I still think he threw a hissy fit in the off-season. That doesn't mean I don't like him. I was happy that he came back despite the hissy fit. If it makes you feel better, I'll call it a temper tantrum.[/quote']

 

I take no issue with your judgements on his personnel moves, because he hasn't had a good two years. I take no issue with you saying his tactics this past offseason were bad for the front office chemistry/continuity, because that clearly didn't help things right in the middle of the hot-stove season. I just think calling it a hissy-fit is a gross mischaracterization of what happened, and I think it comes on the heels of you being upset by the decisions he's made.

 

You may like him, but he's clearly in your doghouse right now -- deservedly -- but that doesn't make what he did what you call it. He rolled the dice and walked away from his dream job because he didn't like his lack of control. That could have very easily blown up in his face and left him no chance to return due to a burned bridge. It was a risk he was willing to take so that he could have his dream job on his terms. That takes some stones.

[a700hitter]

I take no issue with your judgements on his personnel moves, because he hasn't had a good two years. I take no issue with you saying his tactics this past offseason were bad for the front office chemistry/continuity, because that clearly didn't help things right in the middle of the hot-stove season. I just think calling it a hissy-fit is a gross mischaracterization of what happened, and I think it comes on the heels of you being upset by the decisions he's made.

 

You may like him, but he's clearly in your doghouse right now -- deservedly -- but that doesn't make what he did what you call it. He rolled the dice and walked away from his dream job because he didn't like his lack of control. That could have very easily blown up in his face and left him no chance to return due to a burned bridge. It was a risk he was willing to take so that he could have his dream job on his terms. That takes some stones.

I am glad Theo is back as GM, but I thought it was a hissy fit when it happened. It's just my opinion and characterization. I don't know if I was the only one calling it a hissy fit, but I am pretty sure others were calling it a temper tantrum.

[yeszir]

I saw theo dance on stage twice during hot stove / cool music, and I can say that some of those wiggles were easily the worst moves of his career.

[a700hitter]

I saw theo dance on stage twice during hot stove / cool music' date=' and I can say that some of those wiggles were easily the worst moves of his career.[/quote']You really know how to kill a thread.

[RedSoxRooter]

... well, if there was ever a thread that deserved to die (along with all it's posters), it's this one.