Worst Move Of Theo's Career?

[riverside sluggers]

Let's not absolve Theo of anything because he was temporarily on an official hissy fit. He was there and he was consulted even though his capacity was not official.

 

Headline here is that it is known Theo (outside or inside the FO) was not approving of the trade because he wanted to retain the young talent in Hanley & Anibal

[a700hitter]

Headline here is that it is known Theo (outside or inside the FO) was not approving of the trade because he wanted to retain the young talent in Hanley & Anibal

The fact that he disagreed proves nothing and absolves him of nothing. It's nothing more than an "I told you so" excuse for him. If he was an effective leader, he would have convinced the others that it was not a good trade and it would not have been made.

[Mr Crunchy]

i dont really blame theo for being a puppet

its larry playing george steinbrenner that f***ed things up

lets not give theo too much credit or blame

hes a figure head and a puppet on a string for the most part

larry liked beckett because he embarassed ny

larry wouldnt know anibel sanchez from anibelle morales of bennington street

hanley was known to be the best product they had

they delayed bringing him up from what i understand because they worried about his maturity and what the consequences wouldve been if he was to hang around manny

 

all in all you cant fault the front office for going after becks

however

just once i'd like to see the f/office make a good decision on what prospects we keep and which ones are untouchable because the ones we've moved have played very very well and the ones we kept??

lets just say the books still open

[a700hitter]

Unfortunately for Theo, he is in a no-win situation with regard to the Beckett trade. If the trade works out in favor of the Red Sox, there is evidence that he opposed the trade. If the trade doesn't work out, the fact that he opposed it is no excuse, because he should have been more effective in putting forth his objections and prevented the trade if he felt so strongly about it. It's to soon to weigh the merits of the trade. In the end it is possible that it could be good for both teams. There is not always a clear cut winner in these things despite Rookie No-Hitters. If Beckett wins a WS and a Cy Young with Boston, how could Boston be faulted for the trade even if Hanley goes on to an ALL-Star career and Sanchez becomes a big winner?

[riverside sluggers]

Keep in mind this, at the time: Lester was the most sought out top pitching prospect the Sox had, every team was asking for him. Thats why the Sox gave Anibal to Florida. Course still time for Beckett to get used to the AL, number of starts he has shown flashes of of brilliance for hope.

[Mr Crunchy]

and this is the problem with prospects

90% of them are at maximum value before they even see a MLB field

ask yourself

is lester worth more today than last year at this time?

what about pedroia??

hansen??

 

all have played

2 have contributed,1 went 7-2 with a decent era in the heart of a pennant race

all have lost market value in my opinion

of course lesters thing is a tragedy and its freaky

but is it any more freaky than taking a soft liner off the elbow that ends your career??

or burning your hand on a candle or falling on a glass and ripping your tendons in your hand or pulling the car over on the southeast expressway and never talking again??

 

all the above happened to sox prospects over the years

so i tend to look at prospects with sceptical eyes because ive seen em come and ive seen em go and most dont do what theyre capable of doing for whatever reasons

 

ask me again if i'd do the becks deal knowing the #s that sanchez and ramirez are throwing up there and i'd still do it in a heartbeat

im of the opinion that becks is a future cy winner or at least an all star

1 off season with veritek in his face and i think he'll be fine

[rician blast]

and this is the problem with prospects

90% of them are at maximum value before they even see a MLB field

ask yourself

is lester worth more today than last year at this time?

what about pedroia??

hansen??

 

i've made this very point in the past, so I couldn't agree more.

 

a FO has to be really confident that a prospect is going to pan out before bringing them up for the very reason that his value could diminish if he underperforms at the highest level.

[mosox]

Lester was untouchable because he was a high draft pick. As good as Sanchez was developing he was expendable. It's still difficult to understand a philosophy of looking towards to the future in a year when 3 top prospects are dealt (Ramirez, Sanchez and Meredith). I include Meredith because he did underperform but he was also thrown into the fire and then just discarded, seemingly without showing any patience or faith in him. I'm not saying it was a bad deal to trade these guys, but it's hard to understand what direction this team is heading.

[Mr Crunchy]

i believe thats our point as well mosox

[riverside sluggers]

Meredith wasnt as high as some would like to think, top 15 probably, but not close to the top 5 at the time he was traded. No one even expected for him to have that type of season in San Diego this year.

 

About Beckett-- Ask any team FO if they have the opportunity to acquire a 26 year old "ace-like" starting pitcher who was the World Series MVP against the Yankees when he was just 23, theyd be lying if they said "I have to think about it"

[Mr Crunchy]

agreed riverside

anyone worth anything had becks on their radar

cla meredith is having a seanez circa 05 type season in san diego

ya gotta give the kid credit as the boston media and associated ballwashers had written him off as a head case who was ruined by tito

 

that being said i wonder how he wouldve done here

[mosox]

Absolutely any team that was looking to win this year and be willing to spend to lock up a big time pitcher like Beckett would make the deal. But when things go wrong, now suddenly they're building for the future? As for Meredith, he was treated as poorly as any prospect in recent memory: a rush to the bigs after double A success, and a rush to label him a failure. Sounds like a "win now" mentality.

[Mr Crunchy]

the media went along with the CLA MERIDETH CANT HANDLE IT ride as if they were partners with the sox

 

wait a minute

doesnt the ny times own part of the sox?

doesnt the ny times own the boston globe??

hmmmmmmn

any wonder why these guys have gotten a free ride despite the incompetence of the front office this year??

[example1]

The fact that he disagreed proves nothing and absolves him of nothing. It's nothing more than an "I told you so" excuse for him. If he was an effective leader' date=' he would have convinced the others that it was not a good trade and it would not have been made.[/quote']

 

This is just lame. It's not an excuse, its a fact. IF theo had say on the deal, it probably wouldn't have happened. He WAS NOT GM at the time, not because he was having a hissyfit (as you so nicely called it) but because he was in a LEGITIMATE contract negotiation with the owners and higher-ups in the front office after Lucchino (who was given the task of resigning him) flopped in that task and was a jerk. You say that Pedro and Damon leaving were ultimately the fault of the sox, but Theo asks for what he is worth (not ABOVE market value, mind you) and he's suddenly having a hissy-fit?

remind me not to hire you as my agent!

 

I know you're not against the Red Sox, but you always seem so anti-theo and anti-sox-future, as well as anti-prospect and anti-anything other than Yankeefying-the-Red Sox, but c'mon man; you're also smart and obviously care a lot about the Red Sox. Isn't there anything or anyone on this team that you're either proud of or impressed by?

 

"If he was an effective leader he would have..." didn't you notice that Theo's job is not to be LEADER but to be GM? Don't you think that the GM answers to people like Henry, Warner and Lucchino? Since he's not spending any of his own money I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Your post is filled with absurdities and shots at someone who didn't even hold the position people here claim that he held.

 

This thread should be done, given that Theo was not the GM. Case closed. Perhaps it could be opened elsewhere (this discussion, that is).

 

Sorry a700, you're great, but you also make me want to break a bat and impale myself on it occasionally. The glass always seems completely empty.

[example1]

Absolutely any team that was looking to win this year and be willing to spend to lock up a big time pitcher like Beckett would make the deal. But when things go wrong' date=' now suddenly they're building for the future? As for Meredith, he was treated as poorly as any prospect in recent memory: a rush to the bigs after double A success, and a rush to label him a failure. Sounds like a "win now" mentality.[/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure that getting a 26 year old stud for like 8 mill a year, locked up for a few more years, IS part of building for the future.

[Anuj09]

I feel like no one remembers when Lester k'd 10 ppl against a team in Annibal's division, the Nationals

 

If it had been Lester instead of Anibal he would also be in a similar position aside from his cancer

[example1]

I feel like no one remembers when Lester k'd 10 ppl against a team in Annibal's division, the Nationals

 

If it had been Lester instead of Anibal he would also be in a similar position aside from his cancer

 

And the no-hitter... but that's neither here nor there.

[a700hitter]

This is just lame. It's not an excuse' date=' its a fact. IF theo had say on the deal, it probably wouldn't have happened. He WAS NOT GM at the time, not because he was having a hissyfit (as you so nicely called it) but because he was in a LEGITIMATE contract negotiation with the owners and higher-ups in the front office after Lucchino (who was given the task of resigning him) flopped in that task and was a jerk. You say that Pedro and Damon leaving were ultimately the fault of the sox, but Theo asks for what he is worth (not ABOVE market value, mind you) and he's suddenly having a hissy-fit? [/quote']I like Theo, and i hope he succeeds, but this past off-season IMO he acted immaturely, resulting in disarray by the FO and a very poor off-season.

I know you're not against the Red Sox' date=' but you always seem so anti-theo and anti-sox-future, as well as anti-prospect and anti-anything other than Yankeefying-the-Red Sox, but c'mon man; you're also smart and obviously care a lot about the Red Sox. Isn't there anything or anyone on this team that you're either proud of or impressed by?[/quote']I am not anti-future, but I don't believe in sacrificing what we have in the present for an uncertain future. I enjoy and appreciate the historic performances of Manny and Ortiz. In 39 years of watching baseball, I have never seen a 3-4 like these guys, and the numbers bear me out. No one has done these things since Ruth and Gehrig. I get frustrated that the FO is not doing a better job of making these guys the centerpiece of a team that wins two or three championships. I am upset that management threw away this season and along with it a year of Manny's and Ortiz's primes.

"If he was an effective leader he would have..." didn't you notice that Theo's job is not to be LEADER but to be GM? Don't you think that the GM answers to people like Henry' date=' Warner and Lucchino? Since he's not spending any of his own money I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Your post is filled with absurdities and shots at someone who didn't even hold the position people here claim that he held.[/quote']I still like the Beckett trade, so I am not blaming Theo for it. I think it is unnecessary that this trade be defended. I just think it is silly to claim that Theo was not part of the decision-making process, because he was not officially with the organization. He was there regularly during his hiatus (formerly "hissy fit"), and it has been acknowledged that he was being consulted.

Sorry a700' date=' you're great, but you also make me want to break a bat and impale myself on it occasionally. The glass always seems completely empty.[/quote']Don't do that. We would miss you.

[Anuj09]

i wouldn't be surprised to see him throw a no hitter at some point of his career

edit: well i would but i think its in his potential

[ORS]

"hissy-fit"

This couldn't be further from the truth, and I think it speaks volumes about your bias against him.

 

There was a power struggle at the time of his departure. He didn't like the faction that favored the idea of trading prospects once they started to show value -- i.e. Lucchino. He took advantage of his situation and acted like what he was, a Free Agent. It wasn't a hissy. It was a power play, and he won to a degree because he came back with more say in personnel moves. He had leverage and used it, like everyone in every walk of life does. Judge his moves from here to Christmas, but I don't think you can honestly find fault with him here.

[a700hitter]

This couldn't be further from the truth, and I think it speaks volumes about your bias against him.

 

There was a power struggle at the time of his departure. He didn't like the faction that favored the idea of trading prospects once they started to show value -- i.e. Lucchino. He took advantage of his situation and acted like what he was, a Free Agent. It wasn't a hissy. It was a power play, and he won to a degree because he came back with more say in personnel moves. He had leverage and used it, like everyone in every walk of life does. Judge his moves from here to Christmas, but I don't think you can honestly find fault with him here.

The whole episode was an embarassment for the FO. There's no way around that. What he did was unprofessional and damaging to the organization and it's offseason plans. It has nothing to do with bias. Pwer plays can be made on the inside of any organization. Quitting only to come back without a contract is a hissy fit. He achieved nothing.

[ORS]

Coming back w/o a contract is evidence of a hissy-fit? Now you are really reaching.

 

Was the way things went down good for the organization? No, it certainly wasn't and I take no issue with that. I just don't think it was a hissy. They negotiated, failed to come to terms -- autonomy not money, so he walked. Happens every day. Damon did it. Was his signing with the Yankees a hissy? Suppose he verbally agreed to the Yankee offer, the Sox realized they were about to lose something they needed and changed their offer, and Damon came back. Would that be a hissy?

[example1]

The whole episode was an embarassment for the FO. There's no way around that. What he did was unprofessional and damaging to the organization and it's offseason plans. It has nothing to do with bias. Pwer plays can be made on the inside of any organization. Quitting only to come back without a contract is a hissy fit. He achieved nothing.

 

Then blame Lucchino. Larry was put in charge of negotiating the deal between Theo and the Sox. Theo attempted to open negotiations during the 05 preseason. Larry didn't respond for a few months and his offer was very low. Theo was insulted and put off negotiations until the next offseason. 3 weeks before he was supposed to be resigned (10/31/05) John Henry was alerted to the boilding feud between Lucchino and Epstein; before that he through everything was fine. Henry assumed that Epstein was going to be resigned. Most of the feuding was over leaks to the media and each man feeling that he had been thrown under the bus at one point or another. On the day that Theo was supposed to re-sign with the club to an agreed upon deal, there was an article in the Globe written by Dan Shaugnassie (sp?) that contained information that only LL and Charles Steinberg could have known. That was the final straw, so he walked away.

 

I can understand why Theo would want to be one of the top 3 paid GMs in baseball. Its just not a rediculous idea, especially given his age and the number of years that he could be with this club.

 

[EDIT] I believe that theo's new position allows him to report directly to Henry rather than through Luchinno.

[a700hitter]

On the day that Theo was supposed to re-sign with the club to an agreed upon deal' date=' there was an article in the Globe written by Dan Shaugnassie (sp?) that contained information that only LL and Charles Steinberg could have known. That was the final straw, so he walked away.[/quote']Okay, I'll rephrase. He quit in a huff. I have to say that I had forgotten about the role of the Shaunessy article. I am not the one who floated the idea that the article played a role in the resignation. If that was the case, it certainly gives the appearance that he quit in a huff, or at the very least that he did not think it out very thoroughly. Hence, my calling it a hissy fit. I really don't think my characterization is far off the mark. It's not one of Theo's prouder moments.

[a700hitter]

They negotiated' date=' failed to come to terms -- autonomy not money, so he walked. Happens every day. Damon did it. Was his signing with the Yankees a hissy? Suppose he verbally agreed to the Yankee offer, the Sox realized they were about to lose something they needed and changed their offer, and Damon came back. Would that be a hissy?[/quote']The difference is significant. Damon had an offer from a competitor. That is the essence of a negotiation. The Sox didn't up the ante so he left. Theo had no offer from a competitor, and as far as I know he never got any serious interest from any team. He also made those ridiculous statements about being a social worker for a year, and not being able to give his all for the job anymore. It had all the markings of an emotional decision. I've seen hundreds if not thousands of people leave employment for all sorts of reasons. Usually people that leave voluntarily have another job lined up. The few that don't have another job lined up tend to leave for emotional reasons as opposed to financial reasons.

[riverside sluggers]

Scott Boras himself:

 

The Sox were never in accordance willing to agree to a 5 year contract with Damon. While close to signing with the Yankees, Boras contacted the Sox and said there was a 5 year deal on the table. John Henry was just not willing to commit a 5 year deal. Bora s was just doing what he is best at-- cheat, lie and try to get teams adding on bids

[yankeessuck013]

Looks like if we want Zito, we'll have to get by Borass...yet AGAIN.

[example1]

The difference is significant. Damon had an offer from a competitor. That is the essence of a negotiation. The Sox didn't up the ante so he left. Theo had no offer from a competitor' date=' and as far as I know he never got any serious interest from any team. He also made those ridiculous statements about being a social worker for a year, and not being able to give his all for the job anymore. It had all the markings of an emotional decision. I've seen hundreds if not thousands of people leave employment for all sorts of reasons. Usually people that leave voluntarily have another job lined up. The few that don't have another job lined up tend to leave for emotional reasons as opposed to financial reasons.[/quote']

 

Yes, emotionally it is hard to be in the center of Red Sox nation, with your finger on the button, trading fan favorites, never doing anything that gets unanimous support, while being paid relatively little for what you could be making doing any other number of things with your tremendous intellect, Yale degree and resume; all the while being undermined by the people that you work for (in all actuality, only your immediate boss) who, with their close ties to the ownership/media group, ensure that you wake up and read people discussing the smallest details of your working life, fanning the fire of so many obsessed fans, keeping exposure high, and selling tickets and national media exposure.

 

 

It seems to me that he had plenty of money offered to him, but that he left as a matter of principle because he had taken too much abuse from his boss. I don't call that selfish or whiney, I call that principled and admirable. Epstein knew that Henry wanted him to be there. He sidestepped Lucchino's control problems by forcing Henry to want him back and, within a few weeks, Henry had his man back for twice what Lucchino initially offered.

 

In the waning few weeks Luchinno made the move to trade Beckett. He and Epstein weren't really talking, though Hoyer and Cherrington were talking to both of them. Again, Lucchino wanted to pull the trigger to prove that he didn't need Theo around to create a good team. It certainly placated a lot of us, didn't it?

[CrespoBlows]

Scott Boras himself:

 

The Sox were never in accordance willing to agree to a 5 year contract with Damon. While close to signing with the Yankees, Boras contacted the Sox and said there was a 5 year deal on the table. John Henry was just not willing to commit a 5 year deal. Bora s was just doing what he is best at-- cheat, lie and try to get teams adding on bids

 

Boras wasn't lying. Some other team may have offered Damon, five years and $5 dollars. He had a five year deal on the table. Though, I do believe the Dodgers and Orioles were offering five years.

[example1]

Boras wasn't lying. Some other team may have offered Damon' date=' five years and $5 dollars. He had a five year deal on the table. Though, I do believe the Dodgers and Orioles were offering five years.[/quote']

 

Boras makes baseball worse.