During Era of Fair Competition, 1966-75 ,Sox Were Superior to Yankees

[bobby jr]

Most baseball fans realize that today, the NY Yankees enjoy a huge competitive advantage because of their superior revenues. Starting with the advent of free agency in 1976, the Yankees have bought their choice of free agents starting with Catfish Hunter and ending with Johnny D.

 

The economics of baseball are such that there is no end in sight of the Yankees domination of the AL East. This will be their 12th consecutive year in the playoffs. Today, it is more important than ever to have a huge payroll to win on the field, even more today than 10 years ago.

 

However many fans do not realize that prior to 1965, the Yankees enjoyed a similar advantage, because prior to the free agent draft, they used their superior revenues and signed the best prospects. The Yankees fought against the draft, as the following references will show, the draft was instituted to level the playing field.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLB_Draft

 

"The draft started in 1965. Prior to this, teams were free to sign any amateur player to a professional contract; this system favored large budget, perrenially successful clubs in the scramble for the best talent among, usually, graduating high school players. After a system wherein teams paying large signing bonuses to draftees were compelled to keep the draftees on major league rosters for a certain amount of time (one to two years) proved unsuccessful, Major League Baseball instituted the draft over the strong objections of many historically successful clubs, in particular the New York Yankees. "

 

http://baseball.about.com/od/newsnot...raftprimer.htm

 

"Baseball held its first Draft in June 1965. The original name was Amateur Free-Agent Draft, but it was changed in 1998 to First-Year Draft. Before the Draft was instituted, any team could sign any amateur player. Needless to say, big-budget franchises like the Yankees had an advantage, and baseball wanted to level the playing field"

 

(End of quotations)

 

So now let's look at the brief period when true, fair competition existed in MLB. I took the year after the draft started, 1966, and ended with 1975, as free agency started in 1976.

 

During the 10 year period 1966-1976, the Boston Red Sox had 862 wins, and the New York Yankees had 811 wins. Therefore the Red Sox averaged 86.2 wins per year and the Yankees averaged 81.1 wins per season.

 

The Red Sox finished an average of more than five games per season ahead of the Yankees during the 1966-75 period of fair competition in the AL East.

[bobby jr]

Now some of you may think this is ancient history. But as an Oriole fan, I am sick of seeing the New York Yankees in the playoffs every year, based upon an unfair and biased system which now exists, and which existed before 1965 too.

 

The Yankees domination is based upon their economic advantages. When they didn't have the advantages, when there was a fair playing field, both the Red Sox and Orioles were superior to the Yankees.

 

Now baseball needs to fix the system and return to a balanced playing field. I believe a salary cap is absolutely necessary, to return to the days when every team, even the smaller market teams, had a fair chance.

 

Like they did in 1966-75.

[ORS]

I agree 100%, jr.

 

Yankee fans will defend the actions of the Yankees as inalienable rights of the business owner to run their business as they see fit. I agree with that notion to a degree, however, one needs to consider every aspect of business and see how smaller markets are denied these rights. In real business, the owner is allowed to locate their business in regional areas where revenue can be maximized. NY is the biggest metropolitan area in the country with the highest population. Given the freedoms of regular business, smaller market clubs could improve revenue streams by moving to NY -- this is why NY had a larger number of teams in a smaller league at the begining. They aren't allowed to chase that revenue stream now since MLB approves team locations and is interested in spreading the game across the whole country. Thus, revenue opportunities aren't equal. A salary cap is the only way to level the playing field.

[He Hate Me]

Now some of you may think this is ancient history. But as an Oriole fan, I am sick of seeing the New York Yankees in the playoffs every year, based upon an unfair and biased system which now exists, and which existed before 1965 too.

 

The Yankees domination is based upon their economic advantages. When they didn't have the advantages, when there was a fair playing field, both the Red Sox and Orioles were superior to the Yankees.

 

Now baseball needs to fix the system and return to a balanced playing field. I believe a salary cap is absolutely necessary, to return to the days when every team, even the smaller market teams, had a fair chance.

 

Like they did in 1966-75.

 

Would this be the same Orioles team that spent $330 million compared to the Yankees $359 million from 1996-2000 when the Yankees took 4 out of 5 World Series?

 

And how exactly will a salary cap help competitive balance when the Marlins are spending 15 million dollars a year? Do you really think putting in a salary cap of oh let's say $120 mil will get those teams who consistently lounge around 40-50 mil a year to do any better?

 

MLB: Ok everyone now you can only spend $120 bux today

Marlins, Royals, Devil rays: Great, we only spend around 40-50 at most anyway!

[Mr Crunchy]

as an oriole fan you should hunt down and kill peter angelos

there arent 12 people in maryland who could convict you

[Mr Crunchy]

and for the record

the yankees have yet to win a world series with a payroll of 100M or higher

[ImTooSoxy]

The lack of salary cap complaints are a weak excuse for poor play. As some of the posters have said, plenty of teams have faired quite well on small budgets and while the Yankees have dominated baseball in terms of championships, they have always doen so and I doubt a cap would do much to change that. Players would still want to play for the Yankees organization and the team would still always field a competitive team.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Any college kids here...check at your school to see if they offer an Economics of Baseball course. I took it this past semester...it'll open your eyes to a lot of things.

[bobby jr]

Would this be the same Orioles team that spent $330 million compared to the Yankees $359 million from 1996-2000 when the Yankees took 4 out of 5 World Series?

 

And how exactly will a salary cap help competitive balance when the Marlins are spending 15 million dollars a year? Do you really think putting in a salary cap of oh let's say $120 mil will get those teams who consistently lounge around 40-50 mil a year to do any better?

 

MLB: Ok everyone now you can only spend $120 bux today

Marlins, Royals, Devil rays: Great, we only spend around 40-50 at most anyway!

 

Well of course it is possible to spend money unwisely. There are occassionally exceptions to the general rule that money = winning in baseball.

 

This does not change the fact that there is a strong correlation between payroll and winning percentage in MLB. And the economics have changed since 2000,, payroll is even more important now than 8 years ago.

 

I would be for a salary floor in addition to the salary cap. However the salary cap is much more important. Or else the NY Yankees will make the playoffs 50 years in row. And the Mets are now starting to dominate too, as money becomes ever more important in winning.

[ORS]

I don't think the issue is whether or not it is possible to win with a small budget. The issue, as I see it, is the hording of premier talent. When the O's opened up the purse in the late 90's some of their signings turned out to be mistakes, and they paid the price for it in the standings. The Yankees have made some mistakes with FA signings too lately, but they weren't held to that mistake because they just filled the roster spot with more premier talent -- acquired solely because they are the only team with the means to have $40M+ on the bench/DL.

 

Smaller market teams are at a huge disadvantage because they are unable to keep their premier talent -- they just can't match the offer of the big clubs. This puts a lot of pressure on their ability to scout and develop talent, and they have to do it substantially better than the big clubs in order to compete. On top of that, some of the best talent pools are found outside this country, and there is no draft for international FAs, meaning the bigger market clubs can sign the best and brightest stars in that market as well.

 

While baseball is a business, in the end it is a sport. Sports are governed and defined by fair play. Only a great fool would call the current system fair or equitable. My team benefits from the system, but that doesn't make me feel any better about it. Baseball, as a sport, is a bit of a farce until it eventually fixes this.

 

Oh, and don't mention revenue sharing. The Yankees are the biggest contributors to the revenue sharing pool, and they aren't liable for it for the next 4-5 years since they broke ground on their new stadium -- they are exempt while it is being built.

[Mr Crunchy]

florida won 2xs in 6 years

chicago won last year

arizona had the 2 hosses and little else and won

oakland has been favored to win it all 2-3 times since 00

minny could be dangerous if they get there

the halos won it all in 02

houston made it last season

 

as a matter of fact im pretty sure the sox were the only team in baseball history to win a world series with a payroll exceeding 100,000,000.00

 

what was the question again??

[He Hate Me]

Well of course it is possible to spend money unwisely. There are occassionally exceptions to the general rule that money = winning in baseball.

 

This does not change the fact that there is a strong correlation between payroll and winning percentage in MLB. And the economics have changed since 2000,, payroll is even more important now than 8 years ago.

 

I would be for a salary floor in addition to the salary cap. However the salary cap is much more important. Or else the NY Yankees will make the playoffs 50 years in row. And the Mets are now starting to dominate too, as money becomes ever more important in winning.

 

I think a salary floor is just as important as a salary cap. If the small market teams want revenue sharing, they need to take that money they gte and put it right back into the product on the field rather than line their pockets like the Royals and Twins of the world.

[SCM33]

A salary cap is the only way to level the playing field.

 

 

A salary cap would kill us too, not just NY.....its not like we dont have our fair share of terrible contracts.

[schillingouttheks]

A salary cap would kill us too, not just NY.....its not like we dont have our fair share of terrible contracts.

It would hurt us far less than New York. Isn't the difference in salaries like 80 million or something?

[bobby jr]

florida won 2xs in 6 years

chicago won last year

arizona had the 2 hosses and little else and won

oakland has been favored to win it all 2-3 times since 00

minny could be dangerous if they get there

the halos won it all in 02

houston made it last season

 

as a matter of fact im pretty sure the sox were the only team in baseball history to win a world series with a payroll exceeding 100,000,000.00

 

what was the question again??

 

Due to the addition of an additional round of playoffs, MLB will continue to have different teams win the World Series. This is simply because in baseball, a team with inferior talent can easily win a short post season series.

 

The more relevant question is whether it is fair for the Yankees to buy their way into the playoffs for eternity, and the rest of the AL East teams to be at a competitive disadvantage for eternity.

 

12 years in a row of seeing the New York Yankees in the playoffs is more than enough.

 

The Red Sox are not hurt as much as some other smaller market teams are. The Red Sox can afford a relatively big payroll. However under the present system the Red Sox will always be at a huge competitive disadvantage to they Yankees, because their revenues will never equal those of the Yankees.

 

The Red Sox fared far better before free agency. I am old enough to remember The Impossible Dream team of 1967, the great AL East pennant race of 1974 involving the Red Sox, and the great World Series of 1975 when Carlon Fisk hit that dramatic home run.

 

The Orioles also had great years before free agency, the great O's teams of Frank and Brooks Robinson, Palmer, Cuellar, McNally, 3 World Series appearences in a row, 69-71.

 

 

Baseball was great in those years, before free agency and Yankee domination ruined it, for me at least. I no longer attend any Orioles games at all.

 

The system is broken but as long as fans continue to support a corrupt and bankrupt system which so favors the biggest revenue teams, the Yankees (and now the Mets too) MLB has little financial incentive to change the ridiculous system which exists.

 

If enough fans from the smaller market teams simply stop attending games, MLB will be forced to change the system to give all teams a fair chance.

[RedSoxRooter]

Any college kids here...check at your school to see if they offer an Economics of Baseball course. I took it this past semester...it'll open your eyes to a lot of things.

 

I wish I was back in college now. I would pay to sit through that if there was no reading or writing involved. Just listening would be fun.

[Optimist]

Not trying to prove anything, I was just interested about this.

 

Organized by record (as best I could)

 

Team (Where their Payroll Ranks)

 

Detroit (14)

Yankees (1)

Mets (5)

Chi. White Sox (4)

Minnesota (19)

Oakland (21)

Boston (2)

L.A. Angels (3)

Toronto (16)

St. Louis (11)

LA Dodgers (6)

Cincinnati (22)

Texas (18)

San Diego (17)

Philadelphia (13)

Arizona (23)

San Francisco (10)

Atlanta (9)

Colorado (28)

Milwaukee (25)

Houston (8)

Florida (30)

Cleveland (24)

Seattle (12)

Baltimore (15)

Washington (20)

Chi. Cubs (7)

Tampa Bay (29)

Kansas City (26)

Pittsburgh (27)

[ORS]

A salary cap would kill us too, not just NY.....its not like we dont have our fair share of terrible contracts.

I'm well aware of that, but that doesn't change the facts.

 

Oh, and take another coin out of the revenue sharing pool. The Mets are building a new stadium too. Looks like less funds will go around for the smaller market teams to keep their young studs. Good news for the big clubs.

[RedSoxRooter]

Not trying to prove anything, I was just interested about this.

 

Organized by record (as best I could)

 

Team (Where their Payroll Ranks)

 

Detroit (14)

Yankees (1)

Mets (5)

Chi. White Sox (4)

Minnesota (19)

Oakland (21)

Boston (2)

L.A. Angels (3)

 

Well, the top 5 payrolls make up 5 of the 8 best records right now.

[ORS]

Not trying to prove anything, I was just interested about this.

 

Organized by record (as best I could)

 

Team (Where their Payroll Ranks)

 

Detroit (14)

Yankees (1)

Mets (5)

Chi. White Sox (4)

Minnesota (19)

Oakland (21)

Boston (2)

L.A. Angels (3)

Toronto (16)

St. Louis (11)

LA Dodgers (6)

Cincinnati (22)

Texas (18)

San Diego (17)

Philadelphia (13)

Arizona (23)

San Francisco (10)

Atlanta (9)

Colorado (28)

Milwaukee (25)

Houston (8)

Florida (30)

Cleveland (24)

Seattle (12)

Baltimore (15)

Washington (20)

Chi. Cubs (7)

Tampa Bay (29)

Kansas City (26)

Pittsburgh (27)

This is one of the worst arguments the non-cappers make. Where you see the effects is to look at those rankings over a period of time. The big boys are near the top every year. The smaller market clubs make an appearance in the rankings, but they have no staying power (right around the time they can't afford their talent any more).

[Mr Crunchy]

the game needs a cap as well as a floor

despite our sox having a big advantage over 99% of the league it still doesnt make it right

 

how many teams in baseball have no chance when the season starts??

it doesnt bode well for the rest of the league

of course baseball doesnt have the courage to take on mlb union and the steinbrenner apologists so we can assume that next year

80% of the teams that go to spring training will apologize to their fans in march and tell them that this is a rebuilding year and they need to be patient

[He Hate Me]

It's simple. The players don't want a cap and the owners don't want a floor. The current system is profitable for the players and for the owners who only want to spend 30 mil a year.

[ORS]

Everyone is making money.

 

Owners will agree to a floor if baseball becomes like the other 3 major sports and agrees to complete revenue sharing. Until then, the status quo will be kept.

[Mr Crunchy]

meanwhile

kc pitt florida tampa dc and miami all should fold as they draw less than 10k a nite during the week

baltimore and atlanta as well

sure

everyone goes to camden once but that novelty is dying as it is in jacobs field too

cinci has a new park,is competeting like crazy for a playoff birth and they cant fill up their building either

 

from a competetive standpoint

baseball needs a cap and a floor or it will fall even further behind the other sports in popularity and eventually will end up on the outdoor network next to the nhl in many cities..

 

a cap and a floor

or eventually the sport will end up like the nhl did

[He Hate Me]

meanwhile

kc pitt florida tampa dc and miami all should fold as they draw less than 10k a nite during the week

baltimore and atlanta as well

sure

everyone goes to camden once but that novelty is dying as it is in jacobs field too

cinci has a new park,is competeting like crazy for a playoff birth and they cant fill up their building either

 

from a competetive standpoint

baseball needs a cap and a floor or it will fall even further behind the other sports in popularity and eventually will end up on the outdoor network next to the nhl in many cities..

 

a cap and a floor

or eventually the sport will end up like the nhl did

 

I think if you force KC and Pitt and Tampa to spend 40-50 mil a yar every year, they're bound to be competitive. Problem is I don't think they can be profitable. Baseball's biggest problem is overexpansion, IMO

[Mr Crunchy]

good points hate

so if theyre not profitbale why keep the businesses open??

i go back to when the orioles had 4/20 game winners and couldnt sell out a world series game??

f*** the fans for not showing up

thats simply disgraceful and its something sox and yank fans never had to deal with

 

all things considered equel

green bay and the giants make the same money from tv revenues

despite nys tv market being 20xs bigger and revenue from concessions and merchandizing dwarfing that of the packers.

 

we can thank wellington mara for this

he saw the writing on the wall for small markets and being in ny he had the muscle to f*** the poor

but his worry was the leagues health and he did the right thing by everyone

 

george steinbrenner will not be confused with wellington mara i fear

neither will the sox 19 member ownership group

 

the nfl is considered the best run league in sports for this reason

but what it amounts to is pure socialism,dispersing from the rich and giving to the poor for the greater good

[He Hate Me]

So what do you think can be done about this then? I really don't think the owners will ever allow a salary floor to go through. If baseball did a better job of promoting its sport (without steroid boys) then maybe this would be a moot point.

 

I htink baseball's marketing team needs to take a look at themselves and stop trying to compare their game to the NBA or NFL (where it's action all the time). Accept the sport for what it is, a 3 hour diversion from the stresses of everyday living, a time for the family to get together and talk about things while watching a pitcher throw over to first base 5 times in one minute. baseball is the ultimate conversation sport, because you need to constantly watch the field in football, basketball, and hockey. baseball gives you a chance to relax, but at the same time it also gives you the exciting moments that we crave in this day and age. If the marketing team could somehow market MLB as an alternative to the Xtreme generation, then maybe we might have something.

[ORS]

So what do you think can be done about this then? I really don't think the owners will ever allow a salary floor to go through. If baseball did a better job of promoting its sport (without steroid boys) then maybe this would be a moot point.

 

I htink baseball's marketing team needs to take a look at themselves and stop trying to compare their game to the NBA or NFL (where it's action all the time). Accept the sport for what it is, a 3 hour diversion from the stresses of everyday living, a time for the family to get together and talk about things while watching a pitcher throw over to first base 5 times in one minute. baseball is the ultimate conversation sport, because you need to constantly watch the field in football, basketball, and hockey. baseball gives you a chance to relax, but at the same time it also gives you the exciting moments that we crave in this day and age. If the marketing team could somehow market MLB as an alternative to the Xtreme generation, then maybe we might have something.

None of that will fix it. If they get the vapid gen-X crowd that will result in greater total revenue, but NY's portion of the pie will be the same percentage it is now.

 

The first "must do" step is complete revenue sharing. A cap won't happen without a floor, and a floor won't happen without the bigger markets sharing some of their riches.

[He Hate Me]

None of that will fix it. If they get the vapid gen-X crowd that will result in greater total revenue, but NY's portion of the pie will be the same percentage it is now.

 

I don't think so. NY is sold out pretty much every year. Plus the NY brand is also already out there. There might be an increase in revenue but NY won't get as much. Markets like Tampa Bay would feel the effect much more. i think the NY Yankee brand is pretty much maxed out right now in terms of revenue.

 

The first "must do" step is complete revenue sharing. A cap won't happen without a floor, and a floor won't happen without the bigger markets sharing some of their riches.

 

The Yankees are where they are because Steinbrenner continually reinvested his own personal money into the team. Does the Twins owner do that? No, he's a billionaire who gets a revenue sharing check from George which promptly goes into his pockets. How about the KC owner?

 

The Yankees floundered in the late 80's and early 90's. being in a big market doesn't guarantee anything except a larger potential audience and fanbase. It's always up to the individual owners of the team and their dedication to the success of the organization. If the Yankees revenue stream suddenly went belly up for no reason, I'm sure George would invest his own personal money into the team to keep it a success.

 

Another example. Consider how much the Yankees are paying for the new stadium out of their own pockets ($800 million), then consider how many owners beg their states or cities to foot the whole bill. George is willing to put al his money on the table for the success of his team. If the small market owners had this mentality, maybe we wouldn't be dealing with this right now.

 

last point. How good do you feeel knowing that part of the 100 bux you just spent on a ticket, 2 hot dogs, 2 beers, and a parking pass is actually going to the pockets of a millionaire who doesn't care about putting money into the team?

[Mr Crunchy]

i dunno

with the sport dominated by latins you'd think that miami & tampa would thrive

they have the population base and the weather but they still dont draw unless boston or ny is in town and then barely at all

 

1 thing they should do immediately is end 1pm starts in miami

most of you have been to florida and understand that at 1pm in august that place is 120degrees and 100% humid and you can almost always count on a shower that makes smoke come off the field with the oppressive steam

unbearable place to watch a day game in the summer and its simply f***ing stupid to play at that hour while you have other options

 

great point about pohlad and the twins

he is the richest owner in sports and wont spend his own money to make his team better.

im not sure about the specifics or even if he makes money but theyre competetive and usually 1-2 guys away from being there in the end.

do the fans in minny deserve more of an effort ??

probably

but again im not hip to their revenue stream or their attendance figures either.

 

as far as steinbrenner goes

his cable money is more than the nl central produces in gate money

hes not a good example simply because his economic flow is in another stratosphere than the other clubs...when he pays more in luxury tax than every other payroll in baseball spends on its regular roster??

its time to evaluate the fairness of it all

 

and i understand where the sox line up in all this

from a competetive standpoint the sox will definetly be hurt by a cap

 

the mets sox la teams perhaps st louis and maybe philly are better examples as big markets than the yanks who are in another galaxy

chicago cleveland maybe seattle and the texan clubs are the mid levels

the rest are poor mouths

poor teams can compete once in a while and even for 3-+4 year stretches if they get lucky with their drafts trades and health but in the long run pitching costs money and if you dont pitch you dont win in the end