Clement DL Bound?

[riverside sluggers]

One factor that seems to never gets touched upon with all of the discussion of the pitchers is the coaching staff, and in particular Nipper. IMO the types of injuries, other than Boomer’s, all seem like a possible byproduct of poor conditioning. I can’t believe I’m saying this but I miss Joe Kerrigan.

 

BTW, when is Wallace due to come back?

 

Not likely he'll be back this year

[riverside sluggers]

Did watch game 2? We can't afford to keep Pauley on the ML roster. Hopefully the Lester experiment will end soon. I'd prefer that he gets lit up in his next start. I'd prefer that to three or four more games where he pitches just well enough to lose. Win are needed. This Red Sox team cannot afford to be a training ground for kids.

 

That is just pitiful to hear

[ORS]

To say that the Sox can't afford to let young players take their lumps on the way to establishing themselves as MLB players is a narrow view. Clement, the proven player, is about as lumpy as you can get, and that is the type of player that will be available via trade. The landscape of the FA market has changed since revenue sharing began. Fewer and fewer premiere players are hitting the market because teams have the revenue to extend them before the become free-agents. The Sox have a chance to have one of those premiere players from within the system with Lester.

[a700hitter]

you are a great fan for rooting against our own players

Obviously, I'd prefer that the kid run off 3 wins in his next 4 outings. All I am saying is that if he is going to go out there in the next two or three outings and give up 4 or 5 runs in 5 or 6 innings, while walking 3-5 guys in each outing and pitch just well enough to lose, I'd prefer that he get knocked out of the box early in his next start and get sent back to the minors to work on his game. I like the kid and I think he has some plus stuff, but he doesn't have the command to succeed at this level yet. The Sox should be putting distance between themselves and the yanks while the yanks are damaged. The Sox should not be using the Major league starting rotation as an instructional league for minor leaguers. Rebuilding teams can afford to to that, not 1st place teams with $120+ million payrolls.

[a700hitter]

You're a moron, I'm sorry. This really isn't as personal as it sounds but cause in other sections of the boards at times I've noticed your pretty tolerable - even likable . I have to say though, you're overall outlook on baseball and how the Sox should be run makes me want to jump off of a bridge to think that we are fans of the same team! The whole point of having a farm system is to filter these guys in and let them contribute at low cost and build a strong team around them. Lester is not an experiment! He is the future of our rotation very likely and he will be in the rotation until Wells comes back and all of next year. I'm really shocked that you hate everyone under the age of 30 who hasn't already won a Cy Young. If we let kids get their toes wet like you say they would be 29 when they get their first full season in! ala youkilis. MDC is not getting moved up and down because they want that, he is only doing that because there hasn't been wide open roster space for him.

 

 

Gah! *chokegargle...die*

Lol! I am glad that calling me a moron is not a personal attack. Lester may be the future of the team, but he may not be ready for the ML roster. I don't want to see this kid have a season like Bonderman had with the Tigers a couple of years ago where it was obvious to everyone that watched that he was very talented and would eventually be a good ML starter, but he was learning on the job and he got tagged with one loss after another. Being on a rotten team didn't help much, but because they were rotten they had the luxury of keeping the kid in the majors. The Sox are not a rotten team. They don't have the luxury to let this kid stay up and go 1 and 5 or 6. I'd rather that he give up an 8 spot in the next start with 5 walks, so the FO has no choice but to send him down for more seasoning. This would force the FO to go out and get an experienced starter. Of course, I'd prefer that he become a winner right out of the gate. I don't want to see the kid giving up 5 runs each outing while showing flashes of brilliance, but getting one Loss after another. If that makes me a moron... I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but dial down the emotion just a bit.

[mtbykr]

Obviously, I'd prefer that the kid run off 3 wins in his next 4 outings. All I am saying is that if he is going to go out there in the next two or three outings and give up 4 or 5 runs in 5 or 6 innings, while walking 3-5 guys in each outing and pitch just well enough to lose, I'd prefer that he get knocked out of the box early in his next start and get sent back to the minors to work on his game. I like the kid and I think he has some plus stuff, but he doesn't have the command to succeed at this level yet. The Sox should be putting distance between themselves and the yanks while the yanks are damaged. The Sox should not be using the Major league starting rotation as an instructional league for minor leaguers. Rebuilding teams can afford to to that, not 1st place teams with $120+ million payrolls.

 

 

I understand what you are saying with your basic premis,,,,however this is just odd:

 

but he doesn't have the command to succeed at this level yet.

 

 

Every report i have read raves about his command. You are basing your opinion on his 1st mlb start, during terrible weather, a 5hour rain delay start time, a tiny strikezone, and shoddy defense! Let's give him a little more time before we kill the guy!

[a700hitter]

Every report i have read raves about his command. You are basing your opinion on his 1st mlb start, during terrible weather, a 5hour rain delay start time, and shoddy defense! Let's give him a little more time before we kill the guy!

I am sure that his command is exceptional for his experience level. He no doubt is head and shoulders above the othe AA and AAA pitchers, but these reports are not comparing him to ML pitchers. ML standards are very different. He will get there eventually. I would just prefer that he refine that part of his game in the minors not in the majors while getting tagged with losses.

[mtbykr]

The key word is... if

 

He hasnt had consistent great stuff since before the all-star break, and dont bring up Tampa Bay becauyse he had 3 bad starts before that outing

 

 

Just throwing this out there, not meant to be an excuse! I heard/saw/read (don't remember) a report that said that nipper believes the TB thing is what has caused all of clements problems. He has noticed that he has wanted to throw a lot more sliders now instead of sinkers which he did before the headshot. Now we all know that sinkers tend to be the pitch that is hit hard back up the middle (that was the pitch in TB i believe) so he is shying away from it, even if he's not knowingly doing it. Previous to the headshot, he threw sinkers a much greater majority of the time--now he has substituted it with the slider which is not nearly as effective for him (and good hitters aren't chasing it). So unless clement deciedes to go back to his "old style" he's not getting better!

[mtbykr]

I am sure that his command is exceptional for his experience level. He no doubt is head and shoulders above the othe AA and AAA pitchers, but these reports are not comparing him to ML pitchers. ML standards are very different. He will get there eventually. I would just prefer that he refine that part of his game in the minors not in the majors while getting tagged with losses.

 

 

I understand what you are saying, but the size of the plate doesn't change when you get to the biggs. I would prefer we had other options and let him put his time in in AAA-----but we need to go with our best option now. Unless clement and fatman pull it together, it could be lester for a while now....and i am not willing to trade lester to get a 5th starter!

[a700hitter]

I understand what you are saying, but the size of the plate doesn't change when you get to the biggs. I would prefer we had other options and let him put his time in in AAA-----but we need to go with our best option now. Unless clement and fatman pull it together, it could be lester for a while now....and i am not willing to trade lester to get a 5th starter!

They should be able to get a 5th starter without trading Lester, unless that starter is Willis. Livan Hernandez could probably be had for a lot less.

[redsoxrules]

how about moving clement to bulpen next year? the reason im saying that is look at these stats

 

In 11 starts this season, Clement has allowed opponents a meager .197 batting average on pitches 1-30. For pitches 31-60, he's been hit at a .280 clip. After pitch 60 — roughly the third time through the order — he's getting pounded to the discordant tune of a .353 average. These are the numbers of a man with a future in middle relief

 

so bassicaly he is good on his first 30 pitches and then sucks the rest of the way , so bulpen might be the future for this guy

[jsinger121]

how about moving clement to bulpen next year? the reason im saying that is look at these stats

 

In 11 starts this season, Clement has allowed opponents a meager .197 batting average on pitches 1-30. For pitches 31-60, he's been hit at a .280 clip. After pitch 60 — roughly the third time through the order — he's getting pounded to the discordant tune of a .353 average. These are the numbers of a man with a future in middle relief

 

so bassicaly he is good on his first 30 pitches and then sucks the rest of the way , so bulpen might be the future for this guy

 

Clement will be traded before he goes to the bullpen. he won't be here next season as the red sox will look to get rid of him by eating his money to some team.

[Fight_the_Empire]

Clement will be traded before he goes to the bullpen. he won't be here next season as the red sox will look to get rid of him by eating his money to some team.

 

I agree, there's no reason they would keep a guy makin $10mil in the bullpen for middle relief. Even if the sox wanted to go that route, he doesnt have the makeup to be a reliever.

[elsrbueno]

They should be able to get a 5th starter without trading Lester, unless that starter is Willis. Livan Hernandez could probably be had for a lot less.

 

The rumors out there are that the asking price for Livan Hernandez is very high. Also, it's PROOF that this is a thin market for pitching that Livan even enters this conversation.

 

5-6, 5.06 ERA. Hitters hitting .287 against him.

 

He sucks against all the decent hitting teams (Mets, Phillies, Reds).

 

The bottom line is that there aren't any pitching options out there. Kyle Lohse, Odalis Perez.... that is the quality of pitchers out there right now. Any of these three would get their asses handed to them in the AL East.

 

Remember in 2003 when the Sox felt like they HAD to get a pitcher, and added Sauerbeck (sp?) and Suppan? That worked out well.

 

I'm not convinced any of these "proven" veterans are better options than Pauley and Lester.

[jsinger121]

The rumors out there are that the asking price for Livan Hernandez is very high. Also, it's PROOF that this is a thin market for pitching that Livan even enters this conversation.

 

5-6, 5.06 ERA. Hitters hitting .287 against him.

 

He sucks against all the decent hitting teams (Mets, Phillies, Reds).

 

The bottom line is that there aren't any pitching options out there. Kyle Lohse, Odalis Perez.... that is the quality of pitchers out there right now. Any of these three would get their asses handed to them in the AL East.

 

Remember in 2003 when the Sox felt like they HAD to get a pitcher, and added Sauerbeck (sp?) and Suppan? That worked out well.

 

I'm not convinced any of these "proven" veterans are better options than Pauley and Lester.

 

all excellent points about the lack of quality starters out there.

[a700hitter]

I'm not convinced any of these "proven" veterans are better options than Pauley and Lester.

None of them have Batting Averages against like Pauley does (closer to .500 than .400). Clearly, he's not ready. We'll have to see about Lester.

[RoyNHSox]

Foulke: right elbow tendonitis

 

Clement: right arm spasms

 

Timlin: shoulder stiffness/dead arm

 

Riske: lower back pains

 

DiNardo: neck strain

 

Holtz: left elbow strain

 

To reiterate a point I made earlier I firmly believe that the Sox pitching coaches are in part responsible for these injuries. Whether it’s a conditioning issue or just bad luck, there is little to support that Nipper and Co are getting the most out of the pitching staff. Overall, it seems that the coaching situation has something to do with the pitching troubles this year.

 

I thought the Nipper promotion was done in haste earlier this year. Maybe I’m overlooking something here, but what pitcher has actually improved under his tutelage? It's probably impossible to objectively measure the coaching staff's effectiveness, but based on what I’ve seen the Sox are near the bottom half of the league when it comes to working with pitchers.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

None of them have Batting Averages against like Pauley does (closer to .500 than .400). Clearly, he's not ready. We'll have to see about Lester.

 

That is based on three games pitched. All three games against top offensive teams. I don't think Pauley is ready either but its not like he is far off from some of the players out there along with a few of the starters on our team.

[a700hitter]

That is based on three games pitched. All three games against top offensive teams. I don't think Pauley is ready either but its not like he is far off from some of the players out there along with a few of the starters on our team.

None of those teams have .500 Batting Averages. He didn't just give up hits in that last game. Everything was scorched. No bloopers. No bleeders. He is not ready for the bigs. I'd rather have that POS Aaron Small this year.

[riverside sluggers]

Clement has been placed on the DL!!!!!!!!

 

Our boy Gabe Kapler is back with the Sox to take his place

 

I didnt even have a speech prepared

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

[Beckett95]

Clement has been placed on the DL!!!!!!!!

 

Our boy Gabe Kapler is back with the Sox to take his place

 

I didnt even have a speech prepared

 

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[TheKilo]

Soooo...who gets Monday's Start?

 

 

Pauley, Alvarez? Is Dinardo close to being back?

[schillingouttheks]

Who fills his spot in the rotation?

[Beckett95]

Who fills his spot in the rotation?

 

possibly Kris Snyder

[a700hitter]

Clement has been placed on the DL!!!!!!!!

 

Our boy Gabe Kapler is back with the Sox to take his place

 

I didnt even have a speech prepared

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

We are now down to 3 major league starters. Things are looking good. We have some good prospects in A ball. Maybe they can fill in the rotation. A transaction to obtain an experienced starter is out of the question.

[ksushi]

We are now down to 3 major league starters. Things are looking good. We have some good prospects in A ball. Maybe they can fill in the rotation. A transaction to obtain an experienced starter is out of the question.

 

Yeah, stop watching. Just quit. Root against the team or become a yankees fan. They have a lot of old players who you could root for. :thumbsup:

[CrespoBlows]

Yeah, stop watching. Just quit. Root against the team or become a yankees fan. They have a lot of old players who you could root for. :thumbsup:

 

The Red Sox org. hate their fans just because the have a prospect pitching tonight. I bet you didn't know that.

[schillingouttheks]

Does Kapler's activation mean we can stop seeing Willie Harris in this lineup and send him back down to AAA?

[a700hitter]

Yeah, stop watching. Just quit. Root against the team or become a yankees fan. They have a lot of old players who you could root for. :thumbsup:

Dontrelle Willis is very, very old. Major league experience doesn't necessarily equate to being old. It usually equates to a higher level of consistency and proficiency. Why don't you get season tickets to the Lowell Spinners. They have a whole roster of prospects that can't help the major league team for at least two years. :thumbsup:

[CrespoBlows]

Dontrelle Willis is very, very old. Major league experience doesn't necessarily equate to being old. It usually equates to a higher level of consistency and proficiency. Why don't you get season tickets to the Lowell Spinners. They have a whole roster of prospects that can't help the major league team for at least two years. :thumbsup:

 

I'll do this without being demeaning.

 

What do you offer for Dontrelle Willis, that can't be beat by another team?