How great is Pedro?

[CalvnHobs6]

This is from Jayson Stark's ESPN INSIDER blog, thought you'd all like to see this. It's about why Pedro is the most dominating pitcher of his generation...as if we didn't already know.

Pedro Martinez isn't going to win 341 games like Roger Clemens.

 

He isn't going to blow past 5,000 strikeouts like Nolan Ryan.

 

He probably won't even make it to 55 complete games, let alone Bob Gibson's 255.

 

But there's still an argument to be made that Pedro is the greatest starting pitcher of the live-ball era -- or at least the most dominant. So what the heck. This little segment of the blogosphere might as well be the one to make a case.

 

With the help of Lee Sinins' fabulous new Complete Baseball Encyclopedia, I took a look at all pitchers in the live-ball era who won 150 games or more. And if these numbers don't get your attention, you're officially comatose:

 

BASERUNNERS PER 9 INNINGS
1. Pedro Martinez 	9.63
2. Juan Marichal 	10.02
3. Sandy Koufax 	10.02

CAREER ERA
1. Pedro Martinez 	2.73
2. Whitey Ford 	2.74
3. Sandy Koufax 	2.76

STRIKEOUT/WALK RATIO
1. Curt Schilling* 	4.2956
2. Pedro Martinez 	4.2955
3. Bret Saberhagen 	3.64
* -- Schilling just took over first place this week.

CAREER WINNING PCT.
1. Pedro Martinez 	.703
2. Whitey Ford 	.690
3. Lefty Grove 	.680

STRIKEOUTS PER 9 INNINGS
1. Randy Johnson 	10.92
2. Pedro Martinez 	10.23
3. Nolan Ryan 	        9.55

HITS PER 9 INNINGS
1. Nolan Ryan 	         6.56
2. Sandy Koufax 	6.79
3. Pedro Martinez 	6.81

And now the clincher ...

ERA COMPARED TO THE AVERAGE PITCHER IN HIS ERA
• NOTE: DIF = difference between pitcher's ERA and average pitcher's ERA; ERA = pitcher's ERA; AVG = Average pitcher's ERA
       PITCHER 	DIF 	ERA 	AVG
1. Pedro Martinez 	1.73 	2.73 	4.46
2. Lefty Grove 	        1.36 	3.06 	4.42
3. Roger Clemens 	1.26 	3.12 	4.38

 

You'll notice that the name Roger Clemens appears only once on any of those lists. And even if you didn't notice, you've noticed now. So if you're wondering how Pedro compares to the Rocket, here goes:

 

• BASERUNNERS/9 IP -- Martinez 1st, Clemens 23rd (10.84)

• ERA -- Martinez 1st, Clemens 19th (3.12)

• STRIKEOUT/WALK RATIO -- Martinez 2nd, Clemens 11th (2.96)

• WIN PCT. -- Martinez 1st, Clemens 4th (.665)

• STRIKEOUTS/9 IP -- Martinez 2nd, Clemens 6th (8.61)

• HITS/9 IP -- Martinez 3rd, Clemens 8th (7.65)

 

But I can hear the Clemens Fan Club whining now. This isn't a fair fight. Roger has hung around eight seasons longer than Pedro. So his numbers would look way better if they'd pitched the same number of years.

 

Uh, guess what? No, they wouldn't. In fact, Clemens' winning percentage, strikeout rate and strikeout/walk ratio all actually got better in those final eight seasons.

 

And when you compare the Rocket to Pedro through the same stages of their career, Pedro still wins every one of those categories. And none is even close.

 

Clemens still doesn't crack the top three in any of those six departments, even when you lop off those last eight seasons. So does anybody want to argue the Rocket was a more dominating pitcher in his prime? I wouldn't advise it.

 

Now obviously, I'm not enough of a knucklehead to claim that Clemens doesn't get many extra credits -- in the Greatest Pitcher of Modern Times debate -- for winning 141 more games and managing to be nearly as awesome as he ever was, well into his 40s.

 

But how much credit? That's the question. And you can all argue that one among yourselves -- till the day they both show up on a Hall of Fame ballot in a mailbox near you.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Not the most dominant of our generation, but the most dominant ever.

[a700hitter]

He's the best that I have ever seen, and I remember the year of the pitcher in 1968 when McClain won 31 and Gibson had a 1.12 ERA.

[empirestrikesback26]

Would have been better in pinstripes, but I forgive him.

[yeszir]

Interesting how all of the K/BB leaders have played for the sox.

[ahhchon]

words cannot even begin to describe how good pedro really was. red sox nation wouldn't be red sox nation if it wasn't for pedro. guys like my uncle who stopped watching baseball because he was angry at the strike came back because he wanted to see what everyone was talking about in this guy named pedro.

 

if he truely has learned how to pitch with the low 90's high 80's fb and works with his change and curve i can't see why he doesn't dominate for the rest of his mets contract and maybe further after that. never go against that guy. i learned once.

 

john

[kreinbihl34]

You can throw 40 mph but if you have enough movement on the ball you can be good

[MC Hammer]

Yeah anyone who goes to baseball-reference.com has been aware of how great he is in comparison with the greatest of all time.

 

I don't know that Pedro is the best pitcher of all time, but he's the best I've ever seen.

[Whos Your Papi]

Pedro is great, but it took Curt Schilling to win the Red Sox a world series. And in the end that is all that matters to me.

 

Schilling = the greatest pitcher in Red Sox history ( during my time). Sorry Petey and Roger.

[redsoxrules]

Pedro is great, but it took Curt Schilling to win the Red Sox a world series. And in the end that is all that matters to me.

 

Schilling = the greatest pitcher in Red Sox history ( during my time). Sorry Petey and Roger.

 

no it took an overall team performance not just schilling ,remember that big steal by roberts,or that big homerun by ortiz ,even johnny's grandslam i could go on and on

petey is by far better than schilling just look at the stats

[Whos Your Papi]

no it took an overall team performance not just schilling ,remember that big steal by roberts,or that big homerun by ortiz ,even johnny's grandslam i could go on and on

petey is by far better than schilling just look at the stats

Stats...Schilling 2 World Series Rings....Pedro 1

 

Remember Schilling in Yankee stadium in the ALCS?

 

Remember Schilling that entire season?

 

You can point out alot of moments in that magical year, and all of them will be stamped in my memory forever. But, Curt Schilling was the difference in that season. Regardless of what anyone says you will not change my mind on that. Without Schilling we do not win the world series. I know you could say that about alot of people that year but Schilling was THE MAN and IS THE MAN.

 

Im sorry, I know Pedro was great and he brought so much to the Red Sox over his tenure and I really do love Pedro. But Schilling coming to the Red Sox saying we would win the World Series and then delivering like he did will be nearly impossible to top in my mind

[redsoxrules]

Stats...Schilling 2 World Series Rings....Pedro 1

 

Remember Schilling in Yankee stadium in the ALCS?

 

Remember Schilling that entire season?

 

You can point out alot of moments in that magical year, and all of them will be stamped in my memory forever. But, Curt Schilling was the difference in that season. Regardless of what anyone says you will not change my mind on that. Without Schilling we do not win the world series. I know you could say that about alot of people that year but Schilling was THE MAN and IS THE MAN.

 

Im sorry, I know Pedro was great and he brought so much to the Red Sox over his tenure and I really do love Pedro. But Schilling coming to the Red Sox saying we would win the World Series and then delivering like he did will be nearly impossible to top in my mind

 

 

without ortiz they dont win,without roberts they dont win even without martinez they dont win ,whats your point? you know as well as i do shilling didnt win it by himself

so because schilling has 1 more ring than pedro makes him a better pitcher ?and as i remember pedro had a pretty dam good game 3 of the world series too put them up 3-0

[Whos Your Papi]

Did you read my post? Seriously I answered every question you just asked in it.

 

The World Series was won after we beat the Yankees.

[redsoxrules]

did you read mine

[Whos Your Papi]

did you read mine

Ortiz I love... and I will never say he was not a major part of us winning it all. And that goes for alot of people...Roberts, Manny, Damon, Foulke. But the one difference in it all was Schilling, this guy showed up in every big game and showed up BIG! Like I said you will never change my opinion on this and that is why in my mind Schilling is the best Red Sox pitcher I have ever seen. I will always say sorry to Petey and Roger because I do love both of them.

[ORS]

Schilling = the greatest pitcher in Red Sox history ( during my time). Sorry Petey and Roger.

It's a shame you weren't a fan during the '99 and '00 seasons, because those are the two most dominant seasons ever pitched IMO. Curt is no doubt a big game pitcher, but just chew on this a little while, his career best ERA+ is 159 in 2003. Petey's overall career ERA+ is 163, the best among qualified pitchers in the history of the game, and it's the best by a wide margin.

[Whos Your Papi]

It's a shame you weren't a fan during the '99 and '00 seasons, because those are the two most dominant seasons ever pitched IMO. Curt is no doubt a big game pitcher, but just chew on this a little while, his career best ERA+ is 159 in 2003. Petey's overall career ERA+ is 163, the best among qualified pitchers in the history of the game, and it's the best by a wide margin.

I expected this. I knew people would call me out saying "I was not a fan". But I was and it was great, but in the end it was same old, same old... Red Sox lose. Pedro, clearly had some of if not the best season(s) of all time in a Red Sox uniform. And I enjoyed those years as much as the next guy. Maybe I am a different kind of fan, maybe I see things outside of the "boston perspective" because I do not live in Mass. But there is something about a guy coming into a high pressure situation and saying "we will win a world series" and then delivering that just makes me love him. Im not saying im right, im not saying im wrong. Everyone has there opinion, but I will take a guy delivering on his word of a world series 100 times out of 100 over one of the best seasons in major league history any day of the week. Stats only mean so much, you can be Barry Bonds but if you don't bring in a championship in the end what does it matter? If you want to call me a idiot beacuse of my opinion....then so be it. But that is how I feel, and nothing anyone will say can change that.

 

I love Pedro and to be honest it still hurts that he is gone...but the love I have for Schilling is on a different level because of what he did for anyone that has any passion for the Boston Red Sox.

 

"Vini, Vidi, Vici" - I came, I saw, I conquered - That is exactly what Schilling did

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Stop acting like a dumbass WYP. Having one more WS ring doesn't make you a better player, hell Curtis Leskanic won one and Yaz never did.

 

Pedro has a career ERA of 2.72, Schill's is 3.40. The only guys who can even stand a chance against Pedro in an argument are guys like Walter Johnson, etc.

 

Also if you look at ERA+, a great statistic, Pedro is one of the best whether you look at career

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_career.shtml

 

or single season

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_season.shtml

 

and his stretch from 1997-2003 is easily the most brilliant of all-time.

[ahhchon]

Pedro is great, but it took Curt Schilling to win the Red Sox a world series. And in the end that is all that matters to me.

 

Schilling = the greatest pitcher in Red Sox history ( during my time). Sorry Petey and Roger.

 

normally i would go apes and tell you how incorrect that is. but judging by the comment you're much too young to know the importance of pedro throughout his 7 year contract with boston.

 

every 5 games we were expected to win when pedro was pitching. 2004 was his first year with us with an era over 3.. OVER 3.. that is just absolutely filthy.

 

if we didn't have pedro the sox would NOT have won the world series. i'm pretty sure everyone agrees with this. pedro didn't NEED schilling, he needed ANYONE WHO COULD PITCH. before lowe emerged with his 21 W season followed by a 19 W season pedro had jack diddily yo for a 2-5. it's like taking todays santana (arguably todays best pitcher) and putting him on the devil rays minus kazmir...

 

people seem to forget that winning a world series is a team effort. schilling never would have won in AZ w/o RJ and vice versa. to say that schilling is a better sox than pedro because he has more WS rings is just silly. it makes me wonder if you know what the phantom tag was let alone who the sox played in the late 80's alcs.

 

john

[ahhchon]

It's a shame you weren't a fan during the '99 and '00 seasons, because those are the two most dominant seasons ever pitched IMO. Curt is no doubt a big game pitcher, but just chew on this a little while, his career best ERA+ is 159 in 2003. Petey's overall career ERA+ is 163, the best among qualified pitchers in the history of the game, and it's the best by a wide margin.

 

285+ in the AL EAST during the ROID ERA. NUFF SAID

 

john

[Whos Your Papi]

Listen, you guys can sit here and say this and that about me all you want. But I AM NOT SAYING PEDRO WAS NOT GREAT. I just want to make that known, I love Pedro and I still do to this day. I just like Schilling more, and I think he was one of, if not the main reason we won the world series. Pedro is and was the man, and I agree without Pedro we do not win the WS....and further more without Papi, Manny, Foulke, Damon we do not win the world series. But there is always that guy that brings the attitude to a team and says "we will win, period" and I think Schilling was that guy. And for that I will always love him. I know all the stats Pedro had, I know for a period of 3-4 years in the 90's-00's he had probably the greatest seasons any pitcher had at any time in baseball history and I truely believe that, and I relish those moments to this day. But in the ALCS against the Yankees when Schilling is on the mound putting his career on the line for all of us, it did something else for me outside of the stats and the great years. If you all can not understand that then fine. But don't sit here and judge me because this is how I think. Maybe I made a bad statement by saying Schilling 2 rings and Pedro 1. I know one man can not win a world series, and I will admit that was a bad comment on my part.

 

I was born in 1984, I am young. I was raised on the Red Sox and around 1991-1992 is when I really start to have a memory of Red Sox moments. This is my personal opinion and if you do not like it...then kill me. But it is how I feel, and im not afraid to say it. I will not sit here and let you all tell me im not a "real fan". Because I know that is a joke.

[ahhchon]

i might have to kill you j/k... pedro put himself on the line for us too.. 99 alds against the indiants.. 5 innings of perfect baseball out of the pen on half a hands day rest.

 

john

[mtbykr]

Papi just likes shill better becuase shill (in his mind) did more to bring a ring to boston than anyone else! Without a doubt though Pedro is the best pitcher of my lifetime; as it was mentioned above--- having an ERA that low during the height of the roid rage is just plain stupid!

[RedRuffing15]

Pedro isn't the Greatest I've ever seen, but Dominant he is. And although Domincace can be found in different forms, and it is amazing to see how many Complete Games hes had in his career. Its also a shame sometimes to see how terrible his luck can be, I think hes lost like 2 perfect games in the 8th on, lost a no hitter thru 8, homerun in a no hitter...so many things like that, but I guess his ring would trump all those anyways....

[bagwell368]

Sorry folks, haven't the time to read the whole thread. However, I have spent a lot of time watching both (Pedro and Roger), and researching both.

 

Using saber metric values such as ERA+, DERA, and the like, Pedro is easily and far away the greatest pitcher of all time (through his career so far) per inning. ERA+ is probably the easiest metric to understand that sheds light. Pedro is a 166 - so you ask? Well ERA+ is all the guys in a given league in a given year, with park corrections biased to 100, IE the average guy would get a 100. Pedro is has a 166. His next closest rival w/ over 1500 innings is Grove who has a 148. Roger is about a 143 or 142 (putting him around 9th or so lifetime). Pedro's ERA+ will fall, perhaps under 160 before he is done.

 

Roger is about done now - just 350 to shoot for if he wants. The argument for Roger is he has many more innings then Petey. A ratio of about 1.7 to 1. So do you want many more innings at a somewhat lower value, or less innings at more? I have to take Roger's career, but for one game or one season, Petey is the guy.

 

If you like Koufax you like Pedro, if you like Cy, WJ, and Warren, then you lean towards Roger.

 

I know that nobody has or likely will touch Petey's double in '99 and '00. If you look up the ERA+ values you see a guy named Keefe from the 1880's has a better season then Petey's. But that was with contact hitters and he was 50' away, hardly the same game.

 

All I know is the Sox had both of them, and I saw them pitch many times, that's pretty damn good for the Sox and for me.

 

W

[Varitek33]

Interesting how all of the K/BB leaders have played for the sox.

 

very interesting.

[a700hitter]

Pedro isn't the Greatest I've ever seen, but Dominant he is. And although Domincace can be found in different forms, and it is amazing to see how many Complete Games hes had in his career. Its also a shame sometimes to see how terrible his luck can be, I think hes lost like 2 perfect games in the 8th on, lost a no hitter thru 8, homerun in a no hitter...so many things like that, but I guess his ring would trump all those anyways....

I am interested to know who you have seen that was better.

[ahhchon]

don't take too much into the amount of complete games pedro has comepared to others.. in todays game pitch count is drooled upon. after 100 pitches you are going to get yanked at any minute. back in the day guys used to pitch to 150+ pitches easily.

 

but if you chose to look at CG pedro is still top 15 among active pitchers, i think he's 11th. he'll move up that list this year.

 

john

[bagwell368]

Red

 

I was wondering who you have seen better then Pedro (at least peak value - usually defined as top 3 seasons any order and 5 best in a row)?

 

I saw Koufax twice, and then everybody since. Carlton and Gibson and Guidry all had killer years and fine careers, but not of them touch Pedro under analysis. So, not to be a wise guy, but to hear who was better and why you think so.

 

W