ESPN upset over Clemens' "insensitive" remark

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Clemens comment was stupid...funny, but stupid.

 

I don't think he meant it cold-heartedly or racist, but you know how soceity is these days, and you know how the stuff you say is going to be interpreted, so you just don't say it.

 

I gotta admit, I had a big chuckle over it, though.

[He Hate Me]

If you don't see the difference, that's unfortunate. It's nowhere near a valid analogy

 

Both are stereotypes. All stereotypes are bad, unless you think there are good stereotypes like all asians are good at math.

[schillingouttheks]

Clemens comment was stupid...funny, but stupid.

 

I don't think he meant it cold-heartedly or racist, but you know how soceity is these days, and you know how the stuff you say is going to be interpreted, so you just don't say it.

 

I gotta admit, I had a big chuckle over it, though.

The only problem with this, is that any normal human being isn't going to think about saying a harmless comment and worry about how it might be interpreted.

 

Too many people are insensitive. Bottom line. And no where in the article is it made out to suggest that Clemens' statement was racist. If you read the article, they don't say anything about him being intolerant.....

[a700hitter]

Both are stereotypes. All stereotypes are bad, unless you think there are good stereotypes like all asians are good at math.

It's not as simple as that. Here's a stereotype: All Sikhs wear turbans. Is it offensive? No. Some stereo types are offensive, some very offensive. Others are not.

[He Hate Me]

It's not as simple as that. Here's a stereotype: All Sikhs wear turbans. Is it offensive? No. Some stereo types are offensive, some very offensive. Others are not.

 

so "all sikhs wear turbans" = "all koreans and japanese work at or own dry cleaners"?

 

here's nother one

 

all muslims wear turbans

 

Now lets ask the sikh community what they went through after 9/11 because of this stereotype

[a700hitter]

so "all sikhs wear turbans" = "all koreans and japanese work at or own dry cleaners"?

 

here's nother one

 

all muslims wear turbans

 

Now lets ask the sikh community what they went through after 9/11 because of this stereotype

There is a fundamental difference between the following statements: "all asians are dry cleaners" and "all dry cleaners are asian" The second statement is not a stereotype of asians. It might be a stereotype of dry cleaners. In some cities or towns the second statement might be close to accurate or completely accurate. It doesn't mean that anyone thinks that Asians are only dry cleaners. That would be a break with sound logic.

 

As for your comment about the Sikhs experience after 911, that had nothing to do with the stereotype that they wear turbans. Wearing a turban is not an offensive stereotype. It is a fact, and one that should be respected. The offensive stereotype that resulted in the violence against the Sikhs was that "all muslims are terrorists." Unfortunately for the Siks, the ignorant people that committed these acts also believed that anyone wearing a turban was a Muslim.

[mtbykr]

There is a fundamental difference between the following statements: "all asians are dry cleaners" and "all dry cleaners are asian" The second statement is not a stereotype of asians. It might be a stereotype of dry cleaners. In some cities or towns the second statement might be close to accurate or completely accurate. It doesn't mean that anyone thinks that Asians are only dry cleaners. That would be a break with sound logic.

 

As for your comment about the Sikhs experience after 911, that had nothing to do with the stereotype that they wear turbans. Wearing a turban is not an offensive stereotype. It is a fact, and one that should be respected. The offensive stereotype that resulted in the violence against the Sikhs was that "all muslims are terrorists." Unfortunately for the Siks, the ignorant people that committed these acts also believed that anyone wearing a turban was a Muslim.

 

Well said--let's not lump all sterotypes together!

[maverick4]

The PC Police is out in force. Isn't Sushi part of the Japanese Cuisine? It is the norm for Japanese people to run Sushi places. It is the norm for Italians to run Italian restaurants and French run French restaurants. So, where is the insensitivity? Lighten up.

 

It's a pretty big leap from talking about ethnic restaurants, to generalizing Koreans and Japanese people as running all the dry cleaning places. What if I said Boston bars were going out of business because Irish people decided to stop drinking for Lent? That would imply that all Irish were alcoholics, Catholics, and that bars mostly made money from drunk Irish. Another example: What if I said mob crimes were down because all the Italians were busy watching the World Cup?

 

This issue is not overblown or too PC. It is insensitive and racist (at least what was originally said).

 

By the way, I saw the original ESPN article yesterday morning. It was definitely a 'foot in the mouth' quote. The article, quotes, and sidebar were CHANGED multiple times during the course of the day. I don't even know if it was legal, but they even re-worded what Clemens said to make it sound less insensitive and racist.

[mtbykr]

It's a pretty big leap from talking about ethnic restaurants, to generalizing Koreans and Japanese people as running all the dry cleaning places. What if I said Boston bars were going out of business because Irish people decided to stop drinking for Lent? That would imply that all Irish were alcoholics, Catholics, and that bars mostly made money from drunk Irish. Another example: What if I said mob crimes were down because all the Italians were busy watching the World Cup?

 

This issue is not overblown or too PC. It is insensitive and racist (at least what was originally said).

 

By the way, I saw the original ESPN article yesterday morning. It was definitely a 'foot in the mouth' quote. The article, quotes, and sidebar were CHANGED multiple times during the course of the day. I don't even know if it was legal, but they even re-worded what Clemens said to make it sound less insensitive and racist.

 

This is of course my opinion, but i do believe that the pc has been overblown in recent years. The problem is not with people being insensative---it's with people being too sensative and looking for something to be upset about. There is a reason that you would imply that irish drink, or italians are mobsters, or that asian people run drycleaners-----that's becuase there has been a precedent set for that--ie there is a reason that everyone associates those different people groups with those things. In the same respect I rock climb, camp, work for adventure races, mt bike, ect... and a lot of people will hear that and think that i am a hippie (which couldn't be further from the truth). Instead of getting upset and pissed about it--i could care less what people think. If i get the chance then i will educate them---but i don't run my life around how other ill-informed people think about me.

 

We all know that all asians don't run drycleaners, irish drink, and italians mobsters-----but instead of everyone getting upset and making a stink out of it---and an issue where there isn't one. We can take the time to educate people and go on with our lives. There is a big difference between someone associating asians with drycleaners, and someone being racist-----------let's not blur the line!

[a700hitter]

It's a pretty big leap from talking about ethnic restaurants, to generalizing Koreans and Japanese people as running all the dry cleaning places. What if I said Boston bars were going out of business because Irish people decided to stop drinking for Lent? That would imply that all Irish were alcoholics, Catholics, and that bars mostly made money from drunk Irish. Another example: What if I said mob crimes were down because all the Italians were busy watching the World Cup?

 

This issue is not overblown or too PC. It is insensitive and racist (at least what was originally said).

 

By the way, I saw the original ESPN article yesterday morning. It was definitely a 'foot in the mouth' quote. The article, quotes, and sidebar were CHANGED multiple times during the course of the day. I don't even know if it was legal, but they even re-worded what Clemens said to make it sound less insensitive and racist.

Your analogy is not valid. Being a dry cleaner does not equate to socially unacceptable behavior like drunkenness or criminal behavior like being in the mob. Only elitist snobs would consider it demeaning to be a dry cleaner or to be called a dry cleaner.

[bagwell368]

700,

 

i don't get this. if you buy that what Clemens said is 100% OK as in not demeaning, then you think a man named "Butcher" should be a butcher, and a person from India living here should either own a gas station, a convience store, or be a software engineer. OR if not, then it is OK to ask them why not, and make comments on why or why not?

 

W

[The Monster is my Mom]

a little off-topic, but the other night on "Lost" one of the characters (Sawyer) made a comment about starting a conveince store on the island and wondered if this Middle Eastern guy on the show (Sayid) was available to work at it. Another pretty racist-type comment, especially for a network TV show.

[mtbykr]

700,

 

i don't get this. if you buy that what Clemens said is 100% OK as in not demeaning, then you think a man named "Butcher" should be a butcher, and a person from India living here should either own a gas station, a convience store, or be a software engineer. OR if not, then it is OK to ask them why not, and make comments on why or why not?

 

W

 

 

 

I will not speak for 700; but from my point of view it's not that i think if you are from india you work at a 7-11, or do computer tech support--------but there is a precident set. There are many people from india who do that work in those fields. Where a good friend of mine is form (NJ and Conn) every 7-11 type place that he comes in contact with are owned and operated by people with an india decent.(even on the simpsons) So to him everytime he see's a 7-11, that is what he associates it with. He is not stereotyping everyone indian saying they all work at 7-11's--------but that is the world as he knew it growing up. Everytime i need to call AOL or Dell or Directv (although they have changed recently) i get someone from india on the phone. I am not stereotyping them----it's just a fact. This holds true to the clemens comment; it seems to make sense that the drycleaners that he went to (and prob went to throughout the WBC) were owned and operated by asians---that's probably why he made the comment.

 

It is just my opinion, but i don't believe that saying these things is racist. I can get offended and pissed off at some things people think about me too-----however i don't let the little things bother me!

[He Hate Me]

What it boils down to is this, you don't have a right to tell an Asian that they shouldnt be offended by a stereotype aobut them. If I'm going to say something about your particular race, I don't have a right to tell you not to be offended. It's not about being politically correct or whatever, it's called good manners. Even if you think you're complimenting someone, people don't like to be pigeonholded into one particular category, no matter how positive you perceive it to be.

[Cityofchampions33]

What it boils down to is this, you don't have a right to tell an Asian that they shouldnt be offended by a stereotype aobut them. If I'm going to say something about your particular race, I don't have a right to tell you not to be offended. It's not about being politically correct or whatever, it's called good manners. Even if you think you're complimenting someone, people don't like to be pigeonholded into one particular category, no matter how positive you perceive it to be.

 

Honestly, if your not asian, you don't know what offends us so whya re you arguing whether it's insensitive, I mean it's like an irish guy saying it's not insensitive to say there's no pasta anymore because the Italian soccer team is playing.

[a700hitter]

What it boils down to is this, you don't have a right to tell an Asian that they shouldnt be offended by a stereotype aobut them. If I'm going to say something about your particular race, I don't have a right to tell you not to be offended. It's not about being politically correct or whatever, it's called good manners. Even if you think you're complimenting someone, people don't like to be pigeonholded into one particular category, no matter how positive you perceive it to be.

Nobody on this board is telling anyone when he or she should or should not be offended. I have stated numerous times that people have the right to be offended (see post # 25). My point, which I keep making and which keeps getting misconstrued as you have above, is that people should consider the context of a statement and the actual meaning of the words before they decide if someone meant to be disaparaging. That being said, many people are distracted by buzzwords that heighten sensitivity and they don't really listen to or read what is said to determine the meaning of the statement.

[a700hitter]

700,

 

i don't get this. if you buy that what Clemens said is 100% OK as in not demeaning, then you think a man named "Butcher" should be a butcher, and a person from India living here should either own a gas station, a convience store, or be a software engineer. OR if not, then it is OK to ask them why not, and make comments on why or why not?

 

W

Please don't tell me what I think. That is offensive. Your assumptions about what I think do not logically flow from anything that I have stated in any of my posts on this thread, but your comment about the man named "Butcher" is is by far the most absurd application of logic in this thread:thumbdown .

[Geaux Sox]

Another great example of the pussification of America.

[He Hate Me]

Nobody on this board is telling anyone when he or she should or should not be offended. I have stated numerous times that people have the right to be offended (see post # 25). My point, which I keep making and which keeps getting misconstrued as you have above, is that people should consider the context of a statement and the actual meaning of the words before they decide if someone meant to be disaparaging. That being said, many people are distracted by buzzwords that heighten sensitivity and they don't really listen to or read what is said to determine the meaning of the statement.

 

you tell people to lighten up about a remark and then you post this? Make up your mind.

[Optimist]

Personally, I'm offended by this. I can see the arguments both sides are presenting, but it still offends me. Perhaps I'm being oversensitive...:dunno:

[He Hate Me]

Personally, I'm offended by this. I can see the arguments both sides are presenting, but it still offends me. Perhaps I'm being oversensitive...:dunno:

 

lighten up and stop being so pc

[a700hitter]

We've beaten this dead horse enough. I think we made glue out of it. In the future, if I post something that you think is really dumb, call me whatever you want, but please don't call me a dry cleaner.

[bagwell368]

GOTCHA !

 

Many 711 owner/operators are also from Pakistan, and believe me, if you want to look stupid, just tell a Hindi Indian he/she is equivalent to Muslim Pakistani -- not pretty.

 

You have to start somewhere in this country. In the 1840's, people from Ireland did menial labor, then in 1890 it was people from Italy and Slavs. In 1915 it was Armenians, etc. and so on.

 

By the third generation just about every vestige of origin besides surname, and claimed identity are gone. The more pressure you put on a group to not meld in, the longer they will keep the ethnic identity. If owning 711's indeed is where most Indian subcontinent people start, its a step up from where most of your forebearers started.

 

Think more, talk less - that is what Roger Clemens has taught me.

 

W