Ideas for sox Rotation in 06

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

You neglect to mention that RJ was pretty average away from the house that ruth built (ERA 3.13 vs. 4.64), he gave up 32 HR (vs. 14 for Beckett). I didn't mean for a whole debate to start by arguing against Johnson > Beckett, I just am happy to have Beckett and would rather have him than Johnson, both for this year and for the 6-7 years in the future that he will be a productive pitcher in this league. (FWIW, Beckett also had poor home/away splits, slightly better than RJ).

You said it in your post. Beckett has poor home/away splits. Why should I think hes going to win 17-20 games, pitch to a low 3 ERA and K 200 in his first year in the AL, and in Fenway park? Why should I think hes going to pitch around 200 innings? There are already questions about his MRI. Its amazing how overrated Beckett is. If it was Burnett that pitched game 6 in NY and not Beckett he wouldnt be getting this much hype.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Oh and I'm sure none of that has to do with switching to the AL East...

Yeah I know, its all decline esp when you consider noone has ever struggled moving from the NL to the AL and of course it wont effect Josh Beckett at all.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

2005 was rehab for Schilling. Schilling will be MUCH improved in 2006, maybe not to his '04 form, but he'll be solid. If you want to kid yourself and believe RJ can stay off the DL in 2006, be my guest. I'm not saying Schilling won't, but he'll be better than RJ.

 

P.S. I'm changing that ? to a >

Mike Lowell>A-Rod too?

[riverside sluggers]

why are all your posts within 3 minutes within each other? wouldnt it have been more reasonable to edit and add all them into 1 post? just wondering

 

Anyways, did you see anyone predicting he would have that kind of ace-like season? Nope but hey its still possible for Beckett to win 14-18 wins with the offense the Sox will have, Manny/Papi combo still heart of the order. Im predicting this year could be the season he will pitch over 200 innings, at the most 210-ish. Im not expecting an ERA of around 3, moreso 3.95-4.20

 

About Schilling, we know he probably wont ever be back to his 2004 level. But he is sure to have a rebound from 05. He did have decent starts down the stretch, 2 of which came againts your boys

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

why are all your posts within 3 minutes within each other? wouldnt it have been more reasonable to edit and add all them into 1 post? just wondering

 

Anyways, did you see anyone predicting he would have that kind of season? Nope but hey its still possible for Beckett to win 14-18 wins with the offense the Sox will have, Manny/Papi combo still heart of the order. Im predicting this year could be the season he will pitch over 200 innings, at the most 210-ish. Im not expecting an ERA of around 3, moreso 3.95-4.20

 

About Schilling, we know he probably wont ever be back to his 2004 level. But he is sure to have a rebound from 05. He did have decent starts down the stretch, 2 of which came againts your boys

Comparing him to RJ you automaticly saying hes going to have that season plus remember hes an "ace" or a #1. You guys did say that when you traded for him. Or atleast the media did. 1 of the Schilling starts were legit. The last one noone even tried. They were worn out from celebrating the division title they won the day before.

[riverside sluggers]

very funny, but didnt they the next day call out the Texas Rangers for resting their starters during the game against the Angels. If the Yankees wanted to have homefield advantage they wouldve tried, Id think they would do it theirselves instead of relying on someone else to do it. I knew it was a loss once they threw Jaret Wright into the fire to start against Boston.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

very funny, but didnt they the next day call out the Texas Rangers for resting their starters during the game against the Angels. If the Yankees wanted to have homefield advantage they wouldve tried, Id think they would do it theirselves instead of relying on someone else to do it. I knew it was a loss once they threw Jaret Wright into the fire to start against Boston.

You said it yourself. They threw Jaret Wright out there. How seriously were they taking the game? Obviously not at all. I heard players after the season say that that game wasnt taken seriously. So I'll take there word for it and I'm not even saying thats a good thing.

[ORS]

Doctors said that Schilling's full recovery would take 14-18 months after the procedure was performed on his ankle. Expecting a repeat of his 2005 performance is a bit of wishcasting by Yankee fans. And, that last start against the Yankees was against the regular starting lineup. At the beginning of the game, Mussina was the only player saved for the next game. The starters came out after the 5th when it was 7-0.

 

Johnson and Schilling both had a similar drop in their K/9 rate, so saying it was due to decline is a bit wishcasting by Sox fans. That said, he is going to be 42 this year and the durability of his knees and back have to be a concern.

 

Comparing Beckett and Johsnon is an interesting study. RJ logged 200+ innings for the first time in his age 26 year (2006 will be Becketts age 26 year). And prior to his age 27 year, his K/9 rate was around 7.75. Beckett's is 8.97 through his age 25 year, and he has much better K/9 and BB/9 numbers in the minors than Johnson did. Beckett is right on the cusp of his peak years. If his production curve takes off at this age, as it typically does, he will have a very good year in 2006. That combined with any decline by Johnson, and Beckett will likely have the better year. BABIP will likely be the deciding factor if they are both pitching well.

 

The bad MRI story hasn't been confirmed by any respectable sporting news source. That story allegedly came out after Tex lost out on acquiring Beckett and it is just as likely that it is spin as it is accurate. Time will tell on that issue. If you disregard that story, Beckett is not a real injury concern. Only one of his 9 trips to the DL has been for an arm related problem, and it didn't sideline him for any appreciable amount of time.

[Plumpamania]

Comparing him to RJ you automaticly saying hes going to have that season plus remember hes an "ace" or a #1. You guys did say that when you traded for him. Or atleast the media did. 1 of the Schilling starts were legit. The last one noone even tried. They were worn out from celebrating the division title they won the day before.

 

You know what I see here? I see a Yankee fan in enemy territory grapsing for anything to hold himself afloat:dunno: what can ya do?

 

RJ didn't have a #1 type season last year. He was good, but not ace like. How many HR did the GREAT Randy Johnson give up? Oh wait, his K/9 rate DIVED didn't it? Hmm what else here, Johnson has no cartilidge in one of his knees. Yea. Anyways.

 

Beckett's biggest problem in Florida was his blisters (Sorry I'm not up to reading 7 previous pages, so if this has been said oh well). Florida's moisture and humidity caused the chronic blisters and by moving to New England (I believe those two areas have different climates, call me silly) but that should help with the problem. And as ORS has posted, Beckett is coming into his PRIME. Something every Yankee player not named Wang or Cano, would be exiting. You see typically between 28-32 is a players PRIME. But for players like Johnson and Beckett who were at the MLB level before that, they enter that early (Andruw Jones for another example) and are able to carry out that level of play for longer.

 

So while Mussina cries about his habits being broken, RJ's knee collapses, Pavano cries for that he can't handle NY and posts a horrible ERA/WHIP and Jaret Wright shows that he's Jaret Wright, and the Yankees are stuck relying on Mr. BB Shawn Chacon and Ching Ming Wang (f*** spelling that bastards name right), you can come here and bash the Sox rotation.

 

Punk.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Doctors said that Schilling's full recovery would take 14-18 months after the procedure was performed on his ankle. Expecting a repeat of his 2005 performance is a bit of wishcasting by Yankee fans. And, that last start against the Yankees was against the regular starting lineup. At the beginning of the game, Mussina was the only player saved for the next game. The starters came out after the 5th when it was 7-0.

 

Johnson and Schilling both had a similar drop in their K/9 rate, so saying it was due to decline is a bit wishcasting by Sox fans. That said, he is going to be 42 this year and the durability of his knees and back have to be a concern.

 

Comparing Beckett and Johsnon is an interesting study. RJ logged 200+ innings for the first time in his age 26 year (2006 will be Becketts age 26 year). And prior to his age 27 year, his K/9 rate was around 7.75. Beckett's is 8.97 through his age 25 year, and he has much better K/9 and BB/9 numbers in the minors than Johnson did. Beckett is right on the cusp of his peak years. If his production curve takes off at this age, as it typically does, he will have a very good year in 2006. That combined with any decline by Johnson, and Beckett will likely have the better year. BABIP will likely be the deciding factor if they are both pitching well.

 

The bad MRI story hasn't been confirmed by any respectable sporting news source. That story allegedly came out after Tex lost out on acquiring Beckett and it is just as likely that it is spin as it is accurate. Time will tell on that issue. If you disregard that story, Beckett is not a real injury concern. Only one of his 9 trips to the DL has been for an arm related problem, and it didn't sideline him for any appreciable amount of time.

I dont remember saying Schilling will do what he did in 05. I do remember saying Schilling wont be what he was in 2004 again which alot of you have already stated. You and I know that they didnt take that game seriously. In one interview(on wfan) A-Rod said that they didnt take that game as seriously as they should have. Also Schilling got beat up the start before(6.1 10H 5ER). As for Beckett if you guys want to act like hes not inury prone, and he didnt have any shoulder problem last year that ok, thats fine with me. According to this rotoworld blurb Peter Gammons was reporting that shoulder MRI story as well:

 

Dec. 7, 2005 - 4:24 am et

 

 

The Red Sox probably won't attempt to sign Josh Beckett to a long-term deal before the start of next season.

"We kind of want to date for a while," said assistant GM Jed Hoyer. "We just acquired him. Let's get to know each other over the next couple months. If we decide we want to do a long-term deal, we'll do that." ESPN's Peter Gammons is going around saying that Beckett's MRI was so bad that the Red Sox aren't sure they'll get 20 starts from him next season. While we find that hard to believe -- he's an injury risk, but the Red Sox had access to the MRI before completing the deal -- waiting is clearly the smart play for Boston here. With two years remaining before free agency, it's not like he'd come cheap if he signed now.

Source: Boston Globe

 

http://rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_previousnews.asp?sport=MLB&leaguenum=&id=6403

[ORS]

You and I know that they didnt take that game seriously. In one interview(on wfan) A-Rod said that they didnt take that game as seriously as they should have.

I know no such thing. I find it very hard to believe that those guys went up to the plate in the first 5 innings saying, "This doesn't really matter, so I'm not going to try as hard". Especially since home field was still on the line at the time. They rested their game one pitcher, which was smart, but they still wanted to win the game, and they knew they'd have to do it offensively. Schilling shut down the starting Yankee lineup for 5 innings, spin it anyway you want, but that is what happened.

 

As for Beckett if you guys want to act like hes not inury prone, and he didnt have any shoulder problem last year that ok, thats fine with me. According to this rotoworld blurb Peter Gammons was reporting that shoulder MRI story as well:

 

Dec. 7, 2005 - 4:24 am et

 

 

The Red Sox probably won't attempt to sign Josh Beckett to a long-term deal before the start of next season.

"We kind of want to date for a while," said assistant GM Jed Hoyer. "We just acquired him. Let's get to know each other over the next couple months. If we decide we want to do a long-term deal, we'll do that." ESPN's Peter Gammons is going around saying that Beckett's MRI was so bad that the Red Sox aren't sure they'll get 20 starts from him next season. While we find that hard to believe -- he's an injury risk, but the Red Sox had access to the MRI before completing the deal -- waiting is clearly the smart play for Boston here. With two years remaining before free agency, it's not like he'd come cheap if he signed now.

Source: Boston Globe

 

http://rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_previousnews.asp?sport=MLB&leaguenum=&id=6403

Rotoworld isn't buying Gammon's story, and neither am I. Dr. Andrews, the orthopedic surgeon just about every MLB pitcher goes to see, performed his MRI and cleared him to train this offseason.

[Plumpamania]

He's just scared. A scared little pin striped fan that doesn't know what it's like to lose. He probably wasn't old enough to remember the 80's or early 90's.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I know no such thing. I find it very hard to believe that those guys went up to the plate in the first 5 innings saying, "This doesn't really matter, so I'm not going to try as hard". Especially since home field was still on the line at the time. They rested their game one pitcher, which was smart, but they still wanted to win the game, and they knew they'd have to do it offensively. Schilling shut down the starting Yankee lineup for 5 innings, spin it anyway you want, but that is what happened.

 

 

Rotoworld isn't buying Gammon's story, and neither am I. Dr. Andrews, the orthopedic surgeon just about every MLB pitcher goes to see, performed his MRI and cleared him to train this offseason.

I never said I was buying the story or anything like that(who knows Gammons may be right or wrong that wasnt the point) but you said: "The bad MRI story hasn't been confirmed by any respectable sporting news source."

 

Peter Gammons is a HOF. As for the the 1 Schilling start what does it prove anyway(if you listen to the WFAN interviews it confirms what I said but w/e)? He still pitched poorly the start before and struggled during the season. To say Schilling will be better then RJ (which was the main point of the whole argument) is ridicules when you consider you dont know what your going to get from Schilling.

[Plumpamania]

I never said I was buying the story or anything like that(who knows Gammons may be right or wrong that wasnt the point) but you said: "The bad MRI story hasn't been confirmed by any respectable sporting news source."

 

Peter Gammons isn't a respectable source, that's the point. The man talks out his old wrinkly butt.

 

Peter Gammons is a HOF. As for the the 1 Schilling start what does it prove anyway(if you listen to the WFAN interviews it confirms what I said but w/e)? He still pitched poorly the start before and struggled during the season. To say Schilling will be better then RJ (which was the main point of the whole argument) is ridicules when you consider you dont know what your going to get from Schilling.

 

So what if Gammons is a HOF, just means he pestered GM's and players the most. His trade "predictions" never come to light. I never take what Gammons says to be of any value.

 

There is no way to say who will be better Schilling or RJ. Schilling's bullpen stint was more to help him get back into the routine of his motion. He didn't throw much more than fastballs and sliders. It was going to take Schilling 14-18 months to fully recover from his ankle surgery. RJ has no knee cartilidge in one of his knees. So we'll all have to wait and see.

[ORS]

I never said I was buying the story or anything like that(who knows Gammons may be right or wrong that wasnt the point) but you said: "The bad MRI story hasn't been confirmed by any respectable sporting news source."

 

Peter Gammons is a HOF. As for the the 1 Schilling start what does it prove anyway(if you listen to the WFAN interviews it confirms what I said but w/e)? He still pitched poorly the start before and struggled during the season. To say Schilling will be better then RJ (which was the main point of the whole argument) is ridicules when you consider you dont know what your going to get from Schilling.

Look, I like Gammons. How couldn't I? He's a Sox fan. But his days as a credible news source, the days that got him into the HOF, have passed him by. Go read his body of work for the last calendar year. What's he got, like a 10% accuracy rating? Fact of the matter is, other than the blurb right after the trade, nothing has been made of this story. And, this is a controversial issue. If there were an inkling of this being true, the Boston media would be calling for heads, and it would still be talked about today.

 

By itself, the Schilling start doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You were the one who said he deserved no credit for that game when others mentioned that his trend was good. And, his trend was good. He sucked in July and August, but there was a steady progression in the quality of his starts. In September/October he delivered 3 quality starts in his last 5 outings, two of which came against a playoff club. Couple that with the fact that his expected full-recovery time is about right now, and the optimism becomes justified.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Mike Lowell>A-Rod too?

 

 

Good comparison. Really intelligent buddy.

 

 

 

 

 

NOBODY SAID THAT

[Optimist]

NOBODY SAID THAT

 

THAT'S THE JOKE.

 

See, you're not the only one who can pres "Caps Lock."

[KeepTheFaith1229]

THAT'S THE JOKE.

 

See, you're not the only one who can pres "Caps Lock."

 

 

I understand it's a joke but comparing Schilling with RJ is a lottt different than comparing Lowell and A-Rod.

[Optimist]

I understand it's a joke but comparing Schilling with RJ is a lottt different than comparing Lowell and A-Rod.

 

Yeah, in the "Lowell vs. A-Rod" debate it's clear who is better...not so much in the "Schilling vs. Unit" argument.

[riverside sluggers]

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/

 

dont think its a made up photo. Schilling at a recent hockey game had dropped the ceremonial first puck, he does look like he's losing that belly he was starting to show this past season.

[schillingouttheks]

Why's he wearing sandals in the hockey rink?

[Optimist]

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/

 

dont think its a made up photo. Schilling at a recent hockey game had dropped the ceremonial first puck, he does look like he's losing that belly he was starting to show this past season.

 

Who wears sandals to a hockey game?

[riverside sluggers]

Who wears sandals to a hockey game?

 

as long as he is shifting all focus to be schill-like in 2006, I dont give a rat's ass if he wears sandals to a hockey game. It is good to see that David Wells impersonation belly starting to fade away though

[ORS]

He was't able to train in the '04/'05 offseason due to the ankle surgery, not so this year. That is certainly an encouraging sign.

[jsinger121]

in arizona where its hot all year round you can probably wear sandals to a hockey game

[riverside sluggers]

Around the Horn: Bullpen

Foulke looks to rebound in '06; Sox install new setup men

By Ian Browne / MLB.com

 

BOSTON -- By and large, the bricks look pretty solid in the Boston bullpen. Manager Terry Francona should have some solid setup options to call on in 2006, as venerable reliever Mike Timlin returns to a crew that has added hard-throwers Guillermo Mota and Rudy Seanez. But just how sturdy is that foundation? The answer to that question is unfolding in Arizona, where Keith Foulke is conducting his winter rehab and workouts in hopes of avenging for perhaps the most nightmarish season of his life. Heading into last spring, the lasting image of Foulke was the ecstasy on his face after he recorded the final out of the 2004 World Series. Now, he tries to erase the glum look that was prevalent for the majority of 2005.

 

If the market had shaped up differently, perhaps the Red Sox would have acquired another insurance policy to anchor the bullpen in the event Foulke didn't rebound. But at the price Billy Wagner and B.J. Ryan were going for, the Red Sox opted to put their faith in Foulke. Until he shows them a reason to think otherwise, Foulke figures to be the anchor of the 2006 bullpen. Foulke had both knees surgically repaired last year, so he hopes his physical issues are behind him. But there was speculation that Foulke struggled mentally just as much as he did physically.

 

"We believe physically he is doing pretty well," said Red Sox co-general manager Ben Cherington. "He had his knee cleaned out after the season and he's been in Phoenix rehabbing and working out. We've been in touch with him. The mental part is harder to answer. Obviously, he struggled last year. It's important to remember that he struggled at another point of his career and bounced back and had a string of success and had dominant years as a closer after he struggled. He's done that before and we're optimistic he can do it again."

 

Cherington was referring to the early portion of the 2002 season, when the White Sox demoted Foulke from his closer's role. Through the second half of that season and the ensuing two years (one in Oakland, the latter with Boston), Foulke pitched the best baseball of his career. While the Red Sox might not know exactly what they're going to get from their closer, they do have their saves leader back in the form of Timlin. Timlin saved 20 games in '05, becoming the primary closer for the final two months of the season. But using the nasty sinkerballer for last call hurts because of his value as an elite setup man.

 

Last year, Timlin referred to himself as "the bridge until Foulke gets back." This year, the Sox hope that bridge from Timlin to Foulke will apply on an almost nightly basis. Because of the presence of Mota and Seanez, the Sox hope that Timlin will be able to get more rest in the seventh inning this year. Mota was an unheralded chip in the deal that brought Josh Beckett to the Red Sox on Thanksgiving. The hope is that Mota, reunited with a former ally in Red Sox pitching coach Dave Wallace, can get back to the level he was at with the Dodgers in 2003, when he posted a 1.97 ERA while setting up for Eric Gagne.

 

The Marlins thought highly enough of Mota that he was their closer at the start of 2005. However, that experiment ended when Mota went on the disabled list with right elbow inflammation. The Red Sox are confident that he has no lingering arm issues. Seanez makes a return to the Red Sox, sort of. His first stint with the team (6.23 ERA in nine appearances during 2003) was almost too short to remember. Control, or lack thereof, haunted Seanez in his initial cameo with Boston.

 

The veteran, who broke in to the Major Leagues way back in 1989, revived his career the last two years and was stellar for the Padres (7-1, 2.69 ERA) in '05. One glaring hole in the bullpen at this point is the lack of a left-hander. The Red Sox opted not to retain specialist Mike Myers, who went to the rival Yankees. Southpaw Lenny DiNardo could win a spot on the staff, but he's more of a long and middle man than a specialist.

 

It remains to be seen how prominent a role will be played by the two young guns, Manny Delcarmen and Craig Hansen. Both righties will get every opportunity to win a job in Spring Training. Jonathan Papelbon, who helped hold the bullpen together down the stretch of last season, is likely to move to his natural role of starting. But if things don't go as scripted in the bullpen, Papelbon could re-emerge.

 

good read by MLB.com, but they made an error on who was the saves leader. Foulke still led the staff in 15 saves. Timlin converted 13, not 20

[DirtDog]

thread creator, since when do we have kevin milwood?

[schillingouttheks]

The title of the thread is "Ideas for sox Rotation in 06." As in...that rotation was an IDEA.

[Beckett95]

looks like curts almost back to being 100% healthy and is in better shape.

 

also has high praise for Beckett and Papelbon.

 

 

some parts of the conversation

John Dennis: Twenty-six days until pitchers and catchers, how’s your schedule going?

 

Curt Schilling: Holy crap… I swear the first day of spring is like Christmas, it seems like it’s forever away and then the next day it’s on top of you. This winter’s gone by so fast. And it’s been so hectic and so busy but I’m excited. I’m nervous, I’m excited, a lot of things to hopefully make up for on a personal level and on a team level coming into this season.

 

JD: How’s your offseason has gone in terms of getting back to where you want to be?

 

CS: Fantastic. About 14-17 days ago, I woke up and my foot was normal… going through workouts and doing the stuff I’m doing here, and I don’t know what the combination was but it feels right again, it feels normal, it feels like it’s always felt … I have some aches and pains early in the morning but it’s felt normal for the first time in a long, long time.

 

Bullish on Beckett

 

JD: Talking about the specifics of the new additions. Is the physical risk of acquiring Josh Beckett worth the physical upside of having this guy if he is healthy on this roster?

 

CS: I’m biased I know but you’re talking about one of the top five arms in the game and that to me is huge. Obviously I don’t know the physical situation so I can’t comment to that but this kid is a future… he’s the kind of guy there’s a plaque in Cooperstown waiting for him if he stays healthy for 10-12 years. There’s obviously some corners to turn for him because you look at him and you see 20-win stuff but you haven’t seen a 20-win season yet. That comes with maturity. He’s obviously gotten that. He’s a big game pitcher. He’s proven that. I think, to me, once you prove that you can do what you do in a big game, to that extent, then there’s no excuse not to finish the rest out. Some guys it takes longer than others but I totally expect that kid to come in here and win a lot of games this year and I’m looking forward to having him.

 

More Papelbon please

 

CS: I think our pitching staff is phenomenally deep. Very, very strong with a ton of power arms in the bullpen because I kept hearing last year going into this potentially that Jon Papelbon would be in the bullpen and I kind of chuckle at that because the thought of making him a reliever right now makes me sick to my stomach. He’s a power arm and he’s a legit potential No. 1, 2 starter type guy and I don’t think you get near the value of his worth out of 60 innings instead of 200. And he’s a guy that… I look at guys on potential best days, and Jon’s potential best day is a no-hitter in a start. Any time a guy has that kind of stuff, you’ve got to run him out there 30 times.

 

 

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

[jimmycarter05]

Maybe Schilling can come back and be the pitching coach when he retires.