Damon to the Yankees

[schillingouttheks]

That forces us to conclude that the surprise by Lucchino and John Henry upon hearing the news was feigned, and that they were dishonest at the next day's press conference, because they did not give an impression that they would have refused to move off the 4/40 offer. I think the events of those two days, including the damage control press conference, indicates that they just dropped the ball.

Definitely. I think Lucchino and Henry were surprised that their 4/40 offer was not enough to keep Damon and that he signed with the Yanks so quickly. They assumed incorrectly that Damon would just play in Boston because it was, well, Boston. They wanted him to take the hometown discount, but he would't, and they fell asleep.

[example1]

I think you're wrong. I think the sox put a price on Damon and were not willing to exceed that price. Damon was not worth 4/52 to anyone but the yankees and if you disagree, I dare you to try and show me how he was aside from talking about how marketable and handsome he was.

 

P.S. Johnny Damon is a very ugly mand and should have stuck with the facial hair.

 

I agree with you man. I don't think the sox were going above 4/40.

 

Ask yourselves folks: IS JOHNNY DAMON WORTH MORE THAN JASON VARITEK?

 

If yes then that's a slap to tek and needs to be backed up by stats. If he's not then the sox weren't going to go above what they offered Varitek. They hoped Damon would take a 'hometown' discount, or (barring that) that he would sign with someone not the Yankees. The fact of the matter is that the worst case scenario happened, but if you wanted the sox to get into a bidding war with the yanks, eventually getting up to 13, 14, 15 million a year then you're crazy. SOme people call this stupidity, I call it integrity. It forces the sox into a difficult spot, but one that they apparently would rather be in than having paid 3 million a year extra to someone who doesn't deserve it.

[ORS]

I don't think this outcome had anything to do with the Red Sox FO sticking to their strategy. I will not be an apologist for the FO. They bungled the negotiations and got outmaneuvered by the Yankees FO. Sox management never even got their final offer on the table. They misread the situation, and they handled the whole thing in an incompetent manner. Now. they have their work cut out for them. If they don't recover from this and the team finshes 3rd or misses the playoffs, heads in the FO should roll.

I'm going to have to disagree here. Look at the moves made this offseason. They acquire a 25 y/o prototype power pitcher (Beckett) with 4 years MLB experience. In the move they gave up two good prospects, but they replaced one with a top-5, ready to play this year, prospect (Marte), who they got by trading away an overpaid SS (Rent-an-error). Sure they threw a little cash the Braves way to get him out the door, but that money doesn't go toward the Sox cap figure, and it clears money for use in coming years. These moves scream "We are trying to build a 5-7 year run powerhouse, it just won't start in 2006" to me.

 

If that's the goal, letting Damon go makes absolute sense. He's good, but he's not a fit after 2006/2007. Cheaper, younger talent will be able to man the CF/leadoff roles. The veterans on the team at that point should be big bats that play the corners, and Johnny doesn't hit well enough to take a corner spot. So they let him walk and picked up two high draft picks. Good move IMO.

 

Note About the June Draft: The Sox pick 7 times before the Yankees make their 3rd pick.

[a700hitter]

SOme people call this stupidity, I call it integrity. It forces the sox into a difficult spot, but one that they apparently would rather be in than having paid 3 million a year extra to someone who doesn't deserve it.

I'll give the Sox FO props for their accomplishments. They've built a solid minor league system, etc. I'll give them props for sending Renteria away. That was a move that was carefully considered. But I will not give them excuses when they so clearly got blind-sided. This might work out for them in the end, but I'll bet they were not patting each other on the back when they heard the news. In fact, I'll bet that there was a big meeting and a fairly significant s*** storm. The Yankees got themselves a good ballplayer, whether they overpaid or not, and our guys were left with egg on their faces. The were not feeling prideful that they had maintained their integrity. Trust me that they felt that they had been made fools.

[ORS]

That forces us to conclude that the surprise by Lucchino and John Henry upon hearing the news was feigned, and that they were dishonest at the next day's press conference, because they did not give an impression that they would have refused to move off the 4/40 offer. I think the events of those two days, including the damage control press conference, indicates that they just dropped the ball.

I think the "We never got a chance to match" story is just a ruse. They aren't stupid. There is no way a big part of RSN accepts "Johnny doesn't fit in our future plans". Sure they wanted him, but they wanted it to be on the cheap because at big money, he'd be even more of an albatross in 2008/2009 to the Sox than he will be to the Yanks.

[a700hitter]

Note About the June Draft: The Sox pick 7 times before the Yankees make their 3rd pick.

Please send me a pm when any of these draft picks makes an impact at the ML level.

[ksushi]

They may have been surprised he left, they may have been surprised the yanks coughed up more for him but does that mean the sox got our manuevered? No. They put a price on him and were surprised they got outbid with it because to be honest there didn't seem to be a market for johnny at all.

 

But seriously, when isn't John Henry surprised by something?

 

Oh and draft picks, should I send you a PM about craig hansen, or dustin pedroia? What about Jacobi Ellsbury? Draft picks matter champ, just because it isn't televised doesn't mean it doesn't matter. This is the tree that falls in the woods when no one is there to hear that actually does fall. It really does happen. It matters.

[ORS]

Please send me a pm when any of these draft picks makes an impact at the ML level.

Gladly. If drafting has a high level of attrition, as it does, aren't more picks better than less?

[jsinger121]

i am in complete agreement with you one red seat. the red sox are building for future runs with young players like papelbon, beckett, hansen, lester, pedroia, marte, and others. yes they will have varitek and oritz still around because those two players are the heart and soul of the red sox. manny may also remain until his deal is done but the way the sox are going now is fine by me. they will not become an aging team like the yankees are starting to become. with many early picks in next june's draft the red sox have the chance to strenghten a farm system that is already one of the up an coming systems in the game today. As long as the red sox made wise and smart draft picks they can set themselves up for talent to come up to boston on an annual basis like the atlanta braves. johnny damon is not worth 52 million dollars. as good as damon was the last 2 seasons you do not give a 32 yr old player who made 8 million last yr a 5 million dollar raise. what the red sox are doing is smart business. there are many fans who dont understand why they basically broke up a championship team but that team had a short window to win one. they had 2 real good chances to win one and they ended up winning one of them. there was no way i wanted to see the 2004 team together on the field in 2007 and 2008. had they signed all those guys the team would have aged before our eyes and would have been a terrible team. right now we are setting ourselves up to improve in 2007 and beyond and to be a power at that time. next year is a transition season. there is no reason to overpay for any free agent right now when next years free agent class will be alot better than this years class. as long as our prospects develop properly and stay healthy the red sox will be a very strong team in the future.

[8191]

I have to say. The sox should be right up there with the top of the division next year and beyond. Pitching, pitching, pitching I would say the yuckees have at best the 3rd best staff in the east Tor with haladay, Burnett, Lilly... and sox (we know the drill). Whoever our leadoff hitter is will score plenty of runs in front of Ortiz, Manny, Lowell, Nixon, Varitek...

[a700hitter]

Oh and draft picks, should I send you a PM about craig hansen, or dustin pedroia? What about Jacobi Ellsbury? Draft picks matter champ, just because it isn't televised doesn't mean it doesn't matter. This is the tree that falls in the woods when no one is there to hear that actually does fall. It really does happen. It matters.

Yes, send me a pm when they make an impact at the ML level. I am still waiting for Murphy, and my hair has been turning grey. What % of draft picks do you think make it to the majors? and what fraction of those guys makes an impact? and how many of them become All-Stars? Play the pick 10 lottery. Your odds would be better. Don't be talking to me about draft choices until you can show me these odds. It's a real long shot that one of the two of them will be another Damon.

[ARod2212]

It isn't like the NFL Draft, NBA Draft or NHL Draft.. guys are misses exponentially more often than they are hits. Yes it's important to have good drafts, but you are just as likely to find a guy who becomes a star in the 15th round as the 3rd.

[jsinger121]

id also say its a good bet that damon wont be worth the 13 million he makes a yr in the last 2 yrs of the deal

[a700hitter]

next year is a transition season. there is no reason to overpay for any free agent right now when next years free agent class will be alot better than this years class. as long as our prospects develop properly and stay healthy the red sox will be a very strong team in the future.

Next year a year of transition? Why? With Damon and the rebuilt pitching and a couple of tweaks, they had a good chance at going all the way. You don't get that many chances where you can put out a team of such a high caliber and you have to hope that you are lucky enough not to suffer key injuries, etc. You can't toss away these chances to build for the future. This team was built to win, and now I am hearing that 2006 will be a transition. I am sorry, but don't you think that is a bit foolish?

[ksushi]

Damon was not in their long term plans at that price. Move on, breathe in, and then breathe out. You will make it out of this O.K. I promise.

[jsinger121]

no i dont because the team had a short window of winning a title and they accomplished that. you can't keep the same team year in and year out. the sox were an old team to begin with. i also think the chances of them going to the world series next year even with damon were still not that good because we have no clue what to expect out of the bullpen. when theo put the 2003 and 2004 red sox together he knew they had a short window of opportunity to win one because he knew they would never be able to sign all their free agents. the red sox are now being smart about how they spend their money because they don't want to tie up players to long term contracts like the yankees and have alot of dead money sitting on the table. I won't be upset if the red sox win 75-80 games next season as long as they start getting younger and bringing up the homegrown talent that is close to being major league ready.

[a700hitter]

I think the "We never got a chance to match" story is just a ruse. They aren't stupid. There is no way a big part of RSN accepts "Johnny doesn't fit in our future plans".

I don't understand the need for such elaborate deception. When they lost Pedro to the Mets, they were honest about holding the line. Pedro was pretty popular and a guaranteed HOF er. Was there such abacklash by RSN when Pedro left. Were they fearing riots in the street if they said that Damon was not in their plans? I don't think that this ruse theory is realistic. You mean that they preferred to look foolish to the entire sports world and the press? Sorry, I am not buying. The argument makes no sense.

[jsinger121]

the red sox wanted pedro back but not at the price the mets were willing to pay. they offered pedro a fair contract. he wanted more money and also did not want to be in schilling's shadow anymore. the red sox wanted damon back as well but not as the price of 52 million. they gave damon a fair contract offer. they also were going to give him a raise from his previous contract. im sorry but he made 8 million dollars last season and yes he was a solid player but that does not constitute a 5 million dollar a year raise. damon also said on a new york radio station that the red sox didn't show him any respect. im sick of this respect that wasn't shown. respect for damon equal $$$ signs. the red sox placed a value on him and stuck to it.

[ksushi]

I think they were simply trying not to insult a player on such a public platform when there was no reason to do so. With Pedro, there was evident animosity between Pedro Martinez and the FO, so they didn't care as much if they hurt his feelings. Damon and the Sox Brass don't have that relationship, so I think they are just merely saying that they didn't have a chance to match the yankees dollars ( or translated into athlete-speak, they didn't have a chance to show the sort of respect that the yankess showed) as not to make it seem as if they didn't think he was worth it, or had little worth. That is all. You're reading too deep into this. Believe me, the FO of any team in baseball is not just twiddling thumbs in their offices throwing paper airplanes or anything like that. They know what is going on. Sometimes its the moves you don't make.

 

And make sure your PM box isn't full around April when Hansen starts out in the ML.

[a700hitter]

I think they were simply trying not to insult a player on such a public platform when there was no reason to do so. With Pedro, there was evident animosity between Pedro Martinez and the FO, so they didn't care as much if they hurt his feelings. Damon and the Sox Brass don't have that relationship, so I think they are just merely saying that they didn't have a chance to match the yankees dollars ( or translated into athlete-speak, they didn't have a chance to show the sort of respect that the yankess showed) as not to make it seem as if they didn't think he was worth it, or had little worth. That is all. You're reading too deep into this. Believe me, the FO of any team in baseball is not just twiddling thumbs in their offices throwing paper airplanes or anything like that. They know what is going on. Sometimes its the moves you don't make.

You are engaging in heavy rationalization and speculation but your theory is not supported by the facts. There is no reason why they would be honest about the Pedro situation, but engage in a conspiracy of deception to make themselves look foolish to save Damons's feelings. Apparently, they failed and Damon felt betrayed anyway. Once Damon started talking smack, why not be honest and fess up that they were holding the line? Did they maintain the conspiracy of deception because they liked looking like bungling buffoons? Your theory is really, really weak. This last post about hurting Damon's feelings is stretching the bounds of believabilty.

[ksushi]

You are engaging in heavy rationalization and speculation but your theory is not supported by the facts. There is no reason why they would be honest about the Pedro situation, but engage in a conspiracy of deception to make themselves look foolish to save Damons's feelings. Apparently, they failed and Damon felt betrayed anyway. Once Damon started talking smack, why not be honest and fess up that they were holding the line? Did they maintain the conspiracy of deception because they liked looking like bungling buffoons? Your theory is really, really weak. This last post about hurting Damon's feelings is stretching the bounds of believabilty.

 

Are you really bothering to coninue this?

 

When did damon 'talk smack' and what the hell is conspiracy of deception are you talking about? This isn't a Mel Gibson move, its a pro sports team. I'm not theorizing, I'm speculating, and you're stretching the bounds of my patience. You're really reaching to try find fault here. So you're salted the sox didn't re-sign damon and you don't see how it would have affected them negativley had they extended a long term deal to him. Ok, thats fine, but to be honest, no one really cares enough about this to go back and theorize about it except for you. Let it go. It happened, can't un-do it. I suggest you poke around the Kevin Millwood thread in the Rumors section and read about what the sox are doing to put a competitve team out on the field in 06, while keeping intact their group of untouchables.

 

Let this go, you're taking this way to seriously. So he left? I wouldn't give him that money either.

[a700hitter]

Let this go, you're taking this way to seriously. So he left? I wouldn't give him that money either.

I'd be more than happy to let this go, but it takes two to tango. I am not going to make up theories that the Damon bungle was part of the FO's strategy. If I am trying your patience, it might be because I have exposed as weak the arguments defending the FO. Was the "Theo matter" part of the FO's strategy? What if this kid Marte is damaged goods, but we didn't give him a physical or check out his medical records? Are going to apologize for that too? I am getting concerned that the FO has had a series of missteps here. Maybe you are right, and they have everything under control, but you won't even acknowledge the possibility that they are somewhat dysfunctional right now without Theo and they have looked sloppy to say the least.

[yankeessuck013]

I found this link over at BB-Fever, it's worth the time.

 

My Sensible Reaction to Johnny Damon Signing with the Yanks

 

how about a massive "Idiot" book burning party??

[ORS]

I don't understand the need for such elaborate deception. When they lost Pedro to the Mets, they were honest about holding the line. Pedro was pretty popular and a guaranteed HOF er. Was there such abacklash by RSN when Pedro left. Were they fearing riots in the street if they said that Damon was not in their plans? I don't think that this ruse theory is realistic. You mean that they preferred to look foolish to the entire sports world and the press? Sorry, I am not buying. The argument makes no sense.

I'd hardly call it elaborate. If it suits your take on the matter, I'll change the name and call it a lie. People are ready to march on Yawkey Way now with pitch-forks and torches, and this is with the FO "bungling" the affair in their minds, imagine if they thought this happened intentionally. The backlash was minor for Pedro because he went to the NL NY ball club, make that the AL club, and the honest answer probably doesn't cut it.

[a700hitter]

I'd hardly call it elaborate. If it suits your take on the matter, I'll change the name and call it a lie. People are ready to march on Yawkey Way now with pitch-forks and torches, and this is with the FO "bungling" the affair in their minds, imagine if they thought this happened intentionally. The backlash was minor for Pedro because he went to the NL NY ball club, make that the AL club, and the honest answer probably doesn't cut it.

Okay, let's assume they lied, don't you agree that the lie backfired on them. There are articles in every major newspaper and tv stories making them look like keystone cops. They can't like the way it turned out. Risking pitch-forks and torches by telling the truth might have been the better strategy.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

Not sure how relevant this is but it's not worth creating another thread, just a little tid bit. And sorry in advance if it was already mentioned.

 

December 24, 2005 -- As Johnny Damon was still deciding whether to defect to the Yankees, he leaned on some stunning advice from Manny Ramirez, Damon and his wife told The Post yesterday.

 

Before Damon agreed to his four-year, $52 million contract, he spoke by phone to Ramirez for some guidance and the latest information about the Boston left fielder's trade demand.

 

Even though Ramirez still is under contract with the Red Sox, he urged Damon over to the other side of baseball's best rivalry.

 

"Manny said, 'You should go to New York,' " Michelle Damon told The Post.

 

Johnny Damon confirmed the conversation.

 

How credible this is I dont know, especially considering it came from The Post

[ORS]

Okay, let's assume they lied, don't you agree that the lie backfired on them. There are articles in every major newspaper and tv stories making them look like keystone cops. They can't like the way it turned out. Risking pitch-forks and torches by telling the truth might have been the better strategy.

I wouldn't say it backfired because Damon leaving to the Yankees was going to generate a backlash no matter what. Either way they come off as buffoons, or they come off as callous businessmen that will ship a player out of town as soon as they've gotten what they want out of them. Both are unappealing ways to be perceived, but only one will significantly deter future players from wanting play for their team.

[BronxBomber61]

Damon is just another in a long list of Red Sox players that get offended by RS negotiating tactics. I can’t think of another winning team that has so many players wanting to move on. The RS claim that these players are in the twilight of their careers but in many cases there’s something left in the tank. Just think that it’s almost a decade since Clemens left and now you guys want him back.

[jsinger121]

I wouldn't day damon is in the twilight of his career but in no way is he worth 13 million a season. come on the guy made 8 million last year. he had a good season but not a season in which he deserves a 5 million dollar pay increase. the fact he has a weak arm, range that has started to diminish, and the fact his numbers have fell off the after each all star break the last two years shows the red sox know that this is not another clemens. clemens tanked his last 4 yrs in boston from 1992-1996 after signing a 4yr 20 million dollar contract. he got fat and out of shape and got hurt. after he got healthy in the second half of 1996 he got back to the clemens of old to cash in on the free agent market. damon in my opinion with the way he plays will never prolong his career the way clemens has. johnny damon will be lucky to have 3 good seasons while in new york.

[ORS]

Damon is just another in a long list of Red Sox players that get offended by RS negotiating tactics. I can’t think of another winning team that has so many players wanting to move on. The RS claim that these players are in the twilight of their careers but in many cases there’s something left in the tank. Just think that it’s almost a decade since Clemens left and now you guys want him back.

This FO is four years old, so try and realize that any discussion of negotiating "tactics" shouldn't extend beyond 2002. The Yawkey's and Dan Duquette are long gone and have no place in the discussion. What happened with Damon is very similar to what happened with Pettitte, so you may want to look at those glass walls surrounding you before you cast that stone next time.