A-ROD vs. PAPI Debate

[ACL BoSox]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/4926540

 

"In fact, I've been doing some informal polling of Yankee fans, asking them who they'd most like to have up in a clutch situation. Most of them say Gary Sheffield, who is the guy I'd least like to see as an opposing pitcher. Some say Derek Jeter. Others say Hideki Matsui. I've yet to hear a Yankee fan say that, with the game on the line, the player they'd most like to have at the plate is Alex Rodriguez. How can that guy be the most valuable player in the league?"

 

"Now ask any Red Sox fan what player they'd most like to see striding to the plate with the outcome in doubt. In the seventh inning and beyond with a chance to tie or put the Red Sox ahead, Ortiz hit .396 with a 1.023 slugging percentage. Time and time again, he delivered victories for Boston when all seemed lost. He crushed a game-winning three-run, walk-off home run to dead center off B.J. Ryan, the Orioles' closer who is brutal on lefties. He taught Angels fireballer Scot Shields that he has plugged the one supposed hole in his swing by destroying a fastball up and in for another walk-off job. Twice in the last two weeks, he delivered game-tying home runs and game-winning hits in the same game."

 

"Day in, day out, Big Papi has meant more to the Red Sox than A-Rod has to the Yankees. If every baseball writer who has a vote for MVP had watched every Red Sox game and every Yankees game, the voting wouldn't be all that close."

 

"Unfortunately, when it comes to MVP voting, it doesn't seem to matter what a player does with his glove, only that he wears one during games."

 

"It's odd that so many baseball writers don't think a DH deserves to be MVP, yet they otherwise think so little of defense that they gave the 1996 award to a below-average outfielder when a certain shortstop was hitting .358 with 382 total bases. If the writers want to give A-Rod an MVP trophy this year, they should revoke the 1996 award they gave to Juan Gonzalez and give it to Rodriguez, who rightfully deserved it."

 

-----------------

 

Why can't Yankee fans see this?

 

This is also coming from Foxsports which is notoriously anti-red sox.

[JeterWifey213]

Personally, I think that Alex's speed and his defense give him a slight edge. IMO Mo should win it, with out him we are nothing.

[ARod2212]

If the award was for 'Most Clutch Hitter' you've got an argument. Unfortuantely it is MVP.

 

You fail.

[schillingouttheks]

Pitchers have Cy Youngs, I can't stand when they get mentioned for MVP's. Papi is the most clutch hitter in the game today, along with the numbers.

 

DH is a position in the AL, and this is the AL MVP, so defense means nothing in this argument to me. If it was NL, then yes it would have an impact. Best clutch hitter in the MLB + outstanding numbers, better than A-Rod's or not, is the MVP to me. What it basically comes down to is: If you are in a pressure situation, and you had to choose from A-Rod or Papi to be at the plate, who do you choose? For me, it's a no-brainer. Papi is the MVP in my view.

[schillingouttheks]

If the award was for 'Most Clutch Hitter' you've got an argument. Unfortuantely it is MVP.

 

You fail.

Well, we're going way too in depth to start handing out way too many awards...the award is in general, who is the most valuable? To be the most clutch hitter in baseball, definitely adds an INCREDIBLY HIGH amount of value to your team, and yourself as a player. Clutch hitting definitely plays a role IMO.

[JeterWifey213]

Pitchers have Cy Youngs, I can't stand when they get mentioned for MVP's.

 

True but think of it this way, would the Sox have won the East if they had Mo? I think so, because not having Foulke lost them them a couple of games. I really wouldn't mind if Ortiz won the MVP, if Alex won it also ok.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

Get rid of Arod at third and who do you have at third base? Phillips with that strong arm of his? Yeah I'll take Arod there thanks. Take Ortiz off the field and who....oh wait. He doesn't even play the field.

 

If anything, Ortiz is a liability to you in the field over Olerud, like in the WS last year when the DH role was eliminated. That doesn't really scream MVP to me.

 

I believe Arod has the second best average in the AL. Yup, pretty good hitter, too.

 

This is most valuable player award people, not a batting title or a silver slugger award we are discussing here.

[See Red]

Get rid of Arod at third and who do you have at third base? Phillips with that strong arm of his? Yeah I'll take Arod there thanks. Take Ortiz off the field and who....oh wait. He doesn't even play the field.

 

You have $25 million to find a replacement.

 

Value is a word with multiple meanings -- one of them has to do with currency.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

You are correct, valuable does have multiple meanings. Hitting is the ONE aspect that Ortiz brings to the table.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

PS- Arod leads his team in HRs, RBIs, AND Average.

 

Ortiz can only boast being the leader in HRs and RBIs on his team.

 

Arod is much more qualified to be the MVP, bar none.

[See Red]

You are correct, valuable does have multiple meanings. Hitting is the ONE aspect that Ortiz brings to the table.

 

And he does it when his team needs it most. That's not only invaluable, but it's a quality that A-Rod doesn't bring to the table, and the difference between the Red Sox being in the playoffs or not.

[schillingouttheks]

True but think of it this way, would the Sox have won the East if they had Mo? I think so, because not having Foulke lost them them a couple of games. I really wouldn't mind if Ortiz won the MVP, if Alex won it also ok.

No, the Sox would have won the East if the rest of our offense other than M-V-Papi, who was slugging it out the whole time, would have feasted on abysmal TB pitching. That's all we needed, to beat up on Tampa Bay, and Toronto, and we had the thing in the bag. It was mostly an offensive thing. We didn't need Mo to win the East.

 

Although, I'll take him if you'll give him to us

 

Also, there's a reason it's called the AL MVP. Defense factors into it, yes, but DH, whether you play the field or not, IS A POSITION IN THE GAME!!! If this is the NL, then A-Rod wins. But this is the AL, all positions are thought of as equal (INCLUDING DH). Papi's value in clutch situations, which is incredibly important, is much higher than that of A-Rod's. I know that defense factors into it, but in my mind, Ortiz has more aspects to him that push him over the edge of A-Rod.

 

Of course, we all have different definitions of "value," so we will just have to wait and see who the MVP is. One thing we can all agree on though, no matter who wins the MVP, whether it be Papi or A-Rod, both players deserve the title, and it will have been well-earned.

[See Red]

PS- Arod leads his team in HRs, RBIs, AND Average.

 

Ortiz can only boast being the leader in HRs and RBIs on his team.

 

Arod is much more qualified to be the MVP, bar none.

 

Yet, how many did he have in a big spot?

 

I'm sorry... 1 run shots with a 4 run lead don't scream 'valuable' to me.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

And you think the Yanks would be anywhere without Arods 48 blasts and high average after starting the season a dismal 11-19?

 

Walk-off hits are definately more memorable than plays on the field. I still remember Arods two run shot in the 9th off Schilling that would prove to be the winning runs of the game. What people don't always remember, however, are the defensive plays that keep the team in the game. What people don't remember (Dave Roberts being an exeption) are stolen bases that lead to runs. Don't tell me that those runs via stolen bases and prevention of runs via amazing defensive plays are any less important than walk-off hits.

 

To get to the 9th inning you have to play 8 innings of fundamentally sound baseball to be in a position to win the baseball game. A walk-off hit is dramatic, but everything else that goes into that win is lost in the excitement. Please just let that excitement wear off and look at the two seasons Ortiz and Arod had. I think that hands down Arod is a more valuable player.

[ACL BoSox]

All of you arguing against Ortiz obviously didn't read the article, the author made valid points, and proved some of the points your making for arod to be meaningless.

 

Like I said, this article didn't come from a boston-based website, in fact, quite the opposite, read the article and then make comments.

[schillingouttheks]

Right now, I wish I could mention Ortiz's pick off of Suppan at 3B in the WS last year, remember that? He threw a strike to Mueller!

 

Haha, obviously that doesn't count this year

 

Good point Pinstripe_Pride, by the way.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

But this is the AL, all positions are thought of as equal (INCLUDING DH). Papi's value in clutch situations, which is incredibly important, is much higher than that of A-Rod's. I know that defense factors into it, but in my mind, Ortiz has more aspects to him that push him over the edge of A-Rod.

 

Yes, I totally understand where you are coming from, but Ortiz is a DH who doesn't have a better batting average or as many homers as Arod does. Arod plays the field as well which is something you can't compare with Ortiz because he doesn't play the field at all.

 

And yeah, whatever one will win it and one won't. I've got to agree with Arod on this one tho. Ortiz has a ring and Arod has a MVP. They can switch :thumbsup:

[schillingouttheks]

I want Ortiz with 2 rings AND an MVP!!!!!!!!!! :harhar:

[Pinstripe_Pride]

lol we'll see...

[Manny Goes Boom]

Heh. Each side has one thing the other doesn't.

 

A-Rod's suporters have that he plays defense and Ortiz does not. Valid point, old but valid.

 

Papi's supporters (which include me) have that Ortiz owns the world in clutch hitting, and A-Rod doesn't come close.

 

Pinstripe Pride talks about Rodriguez's "amazing defensive plays" but all I remember is that ball rolling under his legs on Friday and reaching left field. Only play that sticks out in my mind. LOL

 

To get back to Pintripes argument about taking A-Rod off the Yanks and where would they be. I think, personally they would be OK (the payroll over there is $200 million, they could easily fork out money for a Blaylock, or Glaus). But take Ortiz off the Red Sox and think about it, (don't forget Manny Ramirez has 45 HR's 145 RBI's this year with Ortiz in the lineup either in front or behind him) Manny would see less pitches, thus lowering his production. Resulting in the BOOM from Manny (like that? ) to disappear, and less power equals less runs, and less runs equals less wins (because of mediocre pitching this season) and less wins equals NO PLAYOFFS.

[YanksHater213]

David Ortiz is hands down the MVP. I have never seen a guy that can hit in those situations off any pitcher any team can throw at him better than him. Why does it matter if he doesnt play the field? The DH is one of the positions the AL uses, so why should there be a problem with it? Also, Ortiz doesnt steal bases, because hes big and slow, so now you are also getting into discriminating against someone because of his size. What does it matter if the guy cant steal? He is probably one of the best hitters in the MLB, the best clutch hitter in the MLB, and maybe even one of the most clutch ever. A-Rods walkoff hits have been few and far between while I am sure myself or anyone else can rattle off around 10 easily.

 

Sorry Yankee Fans, David Ortiz is the MVP.

[See Red]

And like the article says... does he somehow hurt his team defensively?

 

If defense was so important, Rodriguez would already be atleast a 3 time winner and Giambi wouldn't have one.

[Cityofchampions33]

If the AL was never planning on giving a DH the award, then they shouldn't have created the position. If pitchers, who play less than DHs, win the MVP, why can;t a DH? In the MVP award history, a pitcher has won 17/146 times, a 11% clip if u do the math, Eckersley won in '92, and hes the last pitcher to win. Even if a pitcher doesn't win that much, if Ortiz played 1st base and played average defense, he would win, it obviously wasn't an issue when Miguel Tejada issued 21 errors in 2002, Frank Thomas' 15 errors in 1993, Barry Bonds .968 FP in 2002, or Ken Caminiti's 20 errors and low FP of .954 in 1996.

 

BTW, when Papi played 70 games at 1b in 1998, he only made 6 errors w/ a .989 FP. Since then, he's never gotten the chance to play the position. Why? Becuase former Yankee Ron Coomer took over that job and went to the All-star game that year. Taking over that position into 2000 and then handing the job off to Doug Mientkiewicz

 

I sorta quoted myself here from the other thread.

[ksushi]

Why is everyone making out A-rod to be this great 3rd basemen all of a sudden? He makes a good enough third basemen, but he's no Scot Rolen. Hes just about average. He more then likely won't win the Gold Glove, but thats not for certain since gold gloves have a lot to do with offense no a days, other wise guys like orlando hudson, bill mueller, and adam everett would have won them by now. Hes OK, not "amazing" but OK. Being OK is a big deal for him simply because he isn't a third basemen, so for a short stop to become an average fielding third basemen, its a big deal, but hes no gold glover.

 

Now about that MVP stuff

 

My interpretation of the MVP is a player whose hitting (or pitching on rare occasions) attributed most to their teams success (limited, or great success, i don't mean just division winning teams). It doesn't matter to me who hit the most homeruns, or had the best average, or the most total bases, or RBI's it matters when they happened and what they did for a team. If Manny Ramirez hit 50 HR's this year with 150 RBI's and .320 average, but did it during garbage time, he wouldn't deserve the MVP, Ortiz would still be the guy. I think ortiz is the guy, I think take him out of the sox lineup and you have a sorry excuse for a team, I think he makes things happen, hes a catalyst on this team, and A-rod isn't even the MVP on his team. I hope the writers see that, I hope they can pick out that although a-rod hit ok in the clutch, he was somewhat a garbage time hitter, somewhat , but not totally. And I hope they see that Sheff is more of an MVP then A-rod is. Ortiz should win this award, don't got putting up a fight for a-rod just because he's a yankee and you're a yankee fan, this award has nothing to do with your team, it's an individual award based on what a player did for their team. Ortiz did the most for his team, he deserves to win it. I don't think he will, but he deserves it.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

the ESPN poll had Ortiz as the MVP 59% to 41%.......the people have spoken.

 

....here is an interesting debate. Obviously everyone talks about Ortiz not playing the field and that advantage goes to A-Rod. However, I feel there are certain qualities in a player that make him an MVP.

 

Baseball teams talk about having good chemistry. Having good chemistry and a strong bond can help teams overcome difficult times and provide a boost when they are struggling. A-Rod does not provide that for the Yankees....just ask the rest of the team. Sure he is a great hitter....but if you take him off that team...the attitude of the team might be better. Not to mention you still have Sheff, Giambi, Matsui to drive in 100 RBI and 25+ HR. If you take Ortiz off the Red Sox....that attitude drops dramatically and this team would certainly not look the same. He was an icon for this 2005 team and thats what the MVP is. Last year when you looked at Anaheim you thought Vlad Guerrero....he carried the team on his back just as Ortiz has done.

 

....stats, playing the field, big plays, big hits......thats all important but if you talk to anyone who really knows baseball they tell you a players attitude is just as important cause it influences everyone around you. That is why David Ortiz is the MVP and not Alex Rodriguez.

[riverside sluggers]

the reason this hot second half for the yankees was not because of alex rodriguez

 

Shawn Chacon

Aaron Small

 

if not for these two pickups, well Sox probably wouldved wrapped up the East a week or so ago

[Pinstripe_Pride]

the ESPN poll had Ortiz as the MVP 59% to 41%.......the people have spoken.

 

 

Too bad "the people" won't be making the decision, although I won't be surprised if Ortiz wins considering how anti-yankee this world has become. Besides, Ortiz can have his MVP as long as Arod gets his ring. :thumbsup:

[WestMassFan04]

David Ortiz should be the MVP without a doubt. He has had so many clutch hits for this team, what is more valuable than that. We all know the sturggles that the Sox rotation has had this year, and without Papi there is no chance that the sox are where they are right now. The Yankees jumped on the backs of Chacon and Small, not A-Rod, while the Sox were standing on the shoulders of Papi. Everyone in Boston knows that Ortiz deserves it, I just hope that for his sake everyone else realizes what he means to this team as well.

[BeanTown33]

Of course, we all have different definitions of "value," so we will just have to wait and see who the MVP is. One thing we can all agree on though, no matter who wins the MVP, whether it be Papi or A-Rod, both players deserve the title, and it will have been well-earned.

 

Agreed Schill. They've both earned it in their own ways. Like it's been mentioned, DH is a position in the AL. Hitting wise, their numbers are almost identical. but then there are some that like to look at defense. Alex has made some tremendous plays, defensivly. He's not my favorite person in the world so for me to admit that it's a big thing. Papi doesn't get the time at first base so we don't really know what type of plays he could really make. Unless, of course, you refer to Schill's post...

Right now, I wish I could mention Ortiz's pick off of Suppan at 3B in the WS last year, remember that? He threw a strike to Mueller!

That was a great defensive play. But it doesn't count. Given the time maybe he could make more plays like that and the defense issue won't be a problem.

[Cityofchampions33]

It would be really dissapointing if they took away this MVP award from Papi just because he doesn't wear a glove.