Ortiz vs. "The Shift"

[NoPepper]

Does anyone else feel that players like Ortiz, that have the infield shift to one side, should simply take a base by tapping the ball away from the shift? I'm curious as to how others feel in genreal, but especially with Ortiz given the rest of the Sox line up.

 

Think of it as an intentional walk. Yes one could argue that you are taking the bat out of his hands, but hell, even a .400 hitter makes 6 outs out of 10. I say take the base. For one thing, doing this enough will result in no more shift.

 

With Manny, Trot etc. following in the order, I say just get on base.

[whereisnomar]

Does anyone else feel that players like Ortiz, that have the infield shift to one side, should simply take a base by tapping the ball away from the shift?

Really, the reason that they do the shift is because he CAN'T slap the ball the other way. It is very rare if the ball does go threw the shift. I think it is actually a smart idea.

[ORS]

It has to do with hitting mechanics. Pull hitters tend to open their hips early to generate power, so even on outside pitches they tend to hit to one side of the field. A good example of someone not open their hips as quickly is Manny, who hits to all fields. Pull hitters can hit the ball to opposite fields, but it is usually due to being a little late on the pitch. For Ortiz to try and hit the ball the other way would require a slight mechanical change, which might throw off his timing. Don't fix it if it ain't broken.

[NoPepper]

It has to do with hitting mechanics. Pull hitters tend to open their hips early to generate power, so even on outside pitches they tend to hit to one side of the field. A good example of someone not open their hips as quickly is Manny, who hits to all fields. Pull hitters can hit the ball to opposite fields, but it is usually due to being a little late on the pitch. For Ortiz to try and hit the ball the other way would require a slight mechanical change, which might throw off his timing. Don't fix it if it ain't broken.

 

Dare I say .... BUNT. OK, that's an extreme. But not hitting for power in this situation is my point. Since the shift is on, I'm suggesting simply tapping the ball towards (in Ortiz's case) e.g. 3rd base.

 

To simplify, since the defense is blatant, so the hitter should be too. I bet just a few of these at bats will put the infield back where it belongs, especially if Manny takes advantage of the extra men on base and adds to his RBI total.

 

That said, assuming that by some magic Ortiz could always execute, the reason for the thread is to see if people here even think just taking one base in this situation is the right thing to do in general, but specifically in Ortiz's case.

[YanksHater213]

[RedSoxRooter]

Dare I say .... BUNT

No. It's a sucker bet by the other team. Papi has a much better chance of hitting a HR than getting a bunt down. The shift only takes away singles to right field, not hits or HRs anywhere else.

 

Now with a guy like Giambi, he probably should bunt a little. He's more of a line drive hitter.

[ORS]

Dare I say .... BUNT. OK, that's an extreme. But not hitting for power in this situation is my point. Since the shift is on, I'm suggesting simply tapping the ball towards (in Ortiz's case) e.g. 3rd base.

 

To simplify, since the defense is blatant, so the hitter should be too. I bet just a few of these at bats will put the infield back where it belongs, especially if Manny takes advantage of the extra men on base and adds to his RBI total.

 

That said, assuming that by some magic Ortiz could always execute, the reason for the thread is to see if people here even think just taking one base in this situation is the right thing to do in general, but specifically in Ortiz's case.

My problem with it wouldn't be the lack of power, but the change in mechanics that might throw off his timing.

[Sox fan in Tex]

I believe they used to put the shift on with Ted Williams, as well.... pansies.

[YanksHater213]

Its a great idea in theory, but it will just throw everything off and mess him up.

[yeszir]

If it were a slap hitting singles playet, someone like ichiro, then by all means, go the other way. You may be making more outs by trying to hit somewhere where its not natural for you to hit, but when you do make contact the odds are greatly improved for the ball to get through.

 

That said, it would never work with Ortiz. Have you seen his swing? He relies on the low and particularly inside pitches. He destroys those. I'd rather let Ortiz hit it over the heads of the shift then try to do something sneaky and hit it around

[Sizzlin22]

Ortiz CAN hit the other way he jsut generally does not do it.

[ARod2212]

Giambi did bunt a week or two ago against the shift to leadoff the 9th inning, and he got it down perfectly. Bunting is not that difficult, these are big league players with uncanny hand-eye coordination. I'm sure if Papi went into the cage and bunted 30 times against live pitching, he could be ready for the game that night and drop a good one down. Keeping the defense honest will open more holes on the right side of the infield.

[Manny Goes Boom]

But as said earlier by RSR, Giambi is a line drive hitter...then the bunt is good because that lessens his chance of getting out (granted his lack of speed) but Im with the same feelings of wrecking the mechanics of his swing, but the idea is not a bad one...but it seems like all the guys they do the shifts to are HEAVY pull hitters with the occasional hits to left *see Papi's series winning homer against Anaheim and the homer he hit off of Gordon in Game 5*

[CrespoBlows]

Ortiz isn't getting paid to bunt, he's getting paid to hit homeruns and drive in 140 runs.

[ARod2212]

Ortiz isn't getting paid to bunt, he's getting paid to hit homeruns and drive in 140 runs.

He's getting paid to help the team win. If he can steal a hit that way why not? If I can drop down a f***ing bunt, any Major League Baseball player should be able to. All he would have to do is work on it for 30 pitches one day. It is not going to destroy his mechanics, its a friggen bunt. We're not asking him to hit right handed here.

[NoPepper]

Ortiz CAN hit the other way he jsut generally does not do it.

 

In a few interviews I saw on TV, Ted Williams regretted not hitting the other way more often. I wish other players would learn a little from the "Splendid Splinter"

[CrespoBlows]

He's getting paid to help the team win. If he can steal a hit that way why not? If I can drop down a f***ing bunt, any Major League Baseball player should be able to. All he would have to do is work on it for 30 pitches one day. It is not going to destroy his mechanics, its a friggen bunt. We're not asking him to hit right handed here.

 

This guy CAN'T bunt, nor should he at all. He needs to swing away, and hit doubles and HR's. Also add the fact that he is probably the slowest runner in baseball, he probably couldn't run it out.

 

You can probably bunt HS fastballs at about 80 mph, and crappy curves that they all throw, but you can't think that Ortiz can lay down a drag bunt at 95 mph.

[ARod2212]

All he's gotta do is knock it anywhere near third base. Giambi isn't fleet a foot either, but there was no play on him. Ortiz could walk on his hands there and beat it out. Best of all, he does that once or twice, it opens up the right side of the infield. So when he's swinging for his doubles and homeruns, the ball has a better chance of sneaking through the infield.

 

Also, I've caught up to low 90s fastballs, and bunted a few as well. I'm sure a guy with his natural abilites could figure it out. I would be more concerned with screwing up fundamentals if he tried to chop one down to the left side. Bunting is a totally different action to swinging and shouldn't affect him. Square to the pitcher and push it up the third base line and it'll pay off.

[CrespoBlows]

All he's gotta do is knock it anywhere near third base. Giambi isn't fleet a foot either, but there was no play on him. Ortiz could walk on his hands there and beat it out. Best of all, he does that once or twice, it opens up the right side of the infield. So when he's swinging for his doubles and homeruns, the ball has a better chance of sneaking through the infield.

 

Also, I've caught up to low 90s fastballs, and bunted a few as well. I'm sure a guy with his natural abilites could figure it out. I would be more concerned with screwing up fundamentals if he tried to chop one down to the left side. Bunting is a totally different action to swinging and shouldn't affect him. Square to the pitcher and push it up the third base line and it'll pay off.

 

Bunting is fundemantal, and your right people like Ortiz should know how to do it, but people like Juan Pierre pull drag bunts, and with Ortiz being as fat as he is, god knows what could happen. Remember that bunt Pierre put down against the Yankees in the World Series? How many of those do you see Ortiz making?

[ORS]

All he's gotta do is knock it anywhere near third base. Giambi isn't fleet a foot either, but there was no play on him. Ortiz could walk on his hands there and beat it out. Best of all, he does that once or twice, it opens up the right side of the infield. So when he's swinging for his doubles and homeruns, the ball has a better chance of sneaking through the infield.

 

Also, I've caught up to low 90s fastballs, and bunted a few as well. I'm sure a guy with his natural abilites could figure it out. I would be more concerned with screwing up fundamentals if he tried to chop one down to the left side. Bunting is a totally different action to swinging and shouldn't affect him. Square to the pitcher and push it up the third base line and it'll pay off.

There's no way Ortiz bunts. Boston is a "moneyball" team, getting people on for the 3-run dinger. Ortiz and Manny are the main source of the long ball. There is no way in hell that he's laying down a bunt unless it's a situational play. Even then, the season would most likely have to be on the line for Tito to ask Papi to lay one down.

[NoPepper]

There's no way Ortiz bunts. Boston is a "moneyball" team, getting people on for the 3-run dinger. Ortiz and Manny are the main source of the long ball. There is no way in hell that he's laying down a bunt unless it's a situational play. Even then, the season would most likely have to be on the line for Tito to ask Papi to lay one down.

 

Even though Manny, Nixon, Tek etc. are gettting up after Papi?

 

I agree, they are a moneyball team. In fact, "taking what the shift gives you" by tapping to the hole left in the shift (bunt, check swing whatever) gets another man on base for that dinger you refer to.

 

Like the stolen base yesterday, NOBODY will expect Papi to just tap the ball to the hole. After a few of these, you will not see the shift anymore me thinks.

[ORS]

Even though Manny, Nixon, Tek etc. are gettting up after Papi?

 

I agree, they are a moneyball team. In fact, "taking what the shift gives you" by tapping to the hole left in the shift (bunt, check swing whatever) gets another man on base for that dinger you refer to.

 

Like the stolen base yesterday, NOBODY will expect Papi to just tap the ball to the hole. After a few of these, you will not see the shift anymore me thinks.

Not saying wouldn't work, just saying it won't happen.

[NoPepper]

Given that Papi bunted again yesterday when faced with the shift, I'd like to revisit this thread.

 

I think that the more often Papi bunts, the sooner people will not shift against him.

 

At a minimum, when he leads off the inning, why not just take the base?

 

Does anyone happen to know what is BA is against the shift? If it was high, I doubt teams would use that defense.

 

One catagory that cost him the MVP last year was his BA. If he is closer to .400 than .300, there is one less excuse to not vote for the DH as MVP.

[ORS]

Given that Papi bunted again yesterday when faced with the shift, I'd like to revisit this thread.

 

I think that the more often Papi bunts, the sooner people will not shift against him.

 

At a minimum, when he leads off the inning, why not just take the base?

 

Does anyone happen to know what is BA is against the shift? If it was high, I doubt teams would use that defense.

 

One catagory that cost him the MVP last year was his BA. If he is closer to .400 than .300, there is one less excuse to not vote for the DH as MVP.

I can agree with idea of him doing this when he leads off the inning. And, the way things have gone thus far, he's been starting the inning more than I'd like to see (yeah, I'm looking at you Loretta). In fact, I'm getting outright sick of seeing the shift, and I'd like to see the Sox make teams pay for it, so I can think of other scenarios where they ought to take advantage. Of course, for them to pay the full price, they need the full Manny threat behind Papi, and I don't think he's all the way back yet. Once he is, they should consider doing it more often to keep teams honest.

[a700hitter]

It's an excellent idea to keep the defenses honest, and he has show a proficiency for doing doing it.

[NoPepper]

I can agree with idea of him doing this when he leads off the inning. And, the way things have gone thus far, he's been starting the inning more than I'd like to see (yeah, I'm looking at you Loretta). In fact, I'm getting outright sick of seeing the shift, and I'd like to see the Sox make teams pay for it, so I can think of other scenarios where they ought to take advantage. Of course, for them to pay the full price, they need the full Manny threat behind Papi, and I don't think he's all the way back yet. Once he is, they should consider doing it more often to keep teams honest.

 

Besides leading off an inning, the shift shows up less when we have men on base, especially with RISP. So another part of the problem is that Ortiz comes to bat with no runners on far too often.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Bunting is fundemantal, and your right people like Ortiz should know how to do it, but people like Juan Pierre pull drag bunts, and with Ortiz being as fat as he is, god knows what could happen. Remember that bunt Pierre put down against the Yankees in the World Series? How many of those do you see Ortiz making?

 

That's the thing though, Ortiz doesn't HAVE to lay a bunt down like that. With the shift that teams are playing on him, he should be able to run backwards down to first base as long as he hits it anyway toward third base. I love the idea of an Ortiz longball, but if Manny heats up, I don't hate Ortiz ALWAYS being on base for him.

[mtbykr]

The funny thing is I was thinking of starting a thread on this topic for the last couple weeks!!! Anyway I would love to see Ortiz lay down a bunt everytime they put the s*** on. I would want him to do this when there is no-one on base of course, but i think a few games where he is getting on base every AB, and things would change! If he doesn't do it, then there is no reason for them to change unless we have people on base!

[NoPepper]

I would want him to do this when there is no-one on base of course, ...

 

For the most part, the shift seems to happen only when there is nobody on base. Certainly not with RISP; a guy on 2ed could walk to 3rd!

 

I conceed that "bunt" is too strong a suggestion - but it did help get the point across in the post. Hitting anything to the left side will suffice.

[YazYaz04]

I agree with that moneyball statement. The Redsox are a team that balance the best of small ball and homerun ball. You get the first few guys on through basehits, walks and sometimes small ball, and then people like big papi, manny, tek, etc knock em in. It sounds like a cliche but the Red Sox can actually pull it off.