Hanley to CF?

[yeszir]

I hate to say it, but no. If he didn't grow up in a Sox uniform and was coming here at 31 instead of leaving, I think he'd have enjoyed playing in Boston even more. He was awesome, but in the end it all got to him. I think the pressure in Boston is terrible for a young guy to deal with - at least it used to be. Here's to all that pressure being gone now. I hope anyway.

In my opinion, the whole "pressure in Boston" situation is overblown. What did Nomar in was the wrist and the fan negativity, which is different than pressure. Pressure is a need to perform. Negativity is fans screaming at you, calling you selfish, and wishing you out of town.

 

If it really had been the pressure in Boston, and if it really is bad for young players, how did Nomar manage to hit above .320 from '98-'00? It makes no sense to say that the pressure got to him after he won two batting titles. If anything he should have improved. I agree with you that he didn't fully develop with the sox, but lets not try to shift the blame to the pressure of playing in Boston.

[yeszir]

Oh, by the way Zenny and RedSoxRooter, are you guys racing to 1000 posts?

[RedSoxRooter]

If it really had been the pressure in Boston, and if it really is bad for young players, how did Nomar manage to hit above .320 from '98-'00? .

The pressure comes from putting up those numbers and being able to manage the media at the same time. When he first came up he had Roger, Mo and then Pedro to be "the stars" of the team. When the burden fell upon him to produce and be the star (once pedro's star started to fade), he blew it.

 

Maybe pressure is too strong a word. But the "expectation" of home grown tallent is too much in Boston. We all expect really good prospects, like Hanley, to be the next Williams, Yaz, Greenwell, Rice, Nomar, etc - because if they are not, why keep them? Why invest the time?

 

As fans we love them, but the media will tear them up if they don't turn out. As they did with Nomar even though he was injured. The place is just tough for young players.

[BoSox Rule]

Nomar was never really THE star of the team.

 

1997- Vaughn

1998- Pedro & Nomar

1999- Pedro & Nomar

2000- Pedro & Nomar

2001- Manny

2002- Manny, Pedro, and Nomar

2003- Pedro, Manny, Ortiz. & Nomar

2004- Manny, Pedro, Ortiz & Schilling

[Zenny]

RSR, you really are overplaying the whole young player thing. Nomar was God until the contract stuff came out and he faded at the age of 30. I really don't see where any of this is coming from.

[Zenny]

By the way, sarasox fan, Remy was falling all over himself today to talk about the kind of athlete Hanley is in the field and on the bases. He was a bit late on those fastballs, but they were in the 96 MPH range and most guys would've been late on them. He fought them all off and managed an opposite field double on one of them.

[sarasoxfan]

i respect remy and indeed have always agreed the guy is a prospect, I just oject to your the perpetual fawning over a prospect who is years away from being ripe. I think the Tejada conmparison is as total stretch. It's simplitistic, and pointless. There are probably loads of all-stars who dont have the numbers hanley has, and some guys who are stiffs who have better minor league numbers--in my opinion it is not a helpful way to judge talent. That being said, the redsox rarely wait for these guys to develop--hiostorically speaking, they play to win now, and usually use these guys as trade bait later on. He may turn out to be as good as you predict and he may not, but getting back to thread I would be stunned if he played center in 06 or was in the majors in 06-

[sarasoxfan]

RSR and yeszir have hit the nail on the head from different perspectives, and identified the real issues here and one of the intangible points that again render the Tejada comparison way of thinking again as ridiculous.

 

Boston is boston, and oakland is oakland....teams that thrive on bringing along talent...have a certain degree of patience from management, the fans and the press , that doesnt exist in boston. The tigers had those pitchers who lost 20 losses ( i think maroth and bondemann) to get major league experience would that ever happen in boston they would be shot on sight and/or traded...booed, spat on, kicked, yelled at and worse--made to have dinner with Yanksin2010--inhuman I know but the kind of punishment reserved for real criminals.

Your boy has already had some maturity issues and that might be something to consider--cold calcuated re-quoting of Baseball america prospect lists and quoting stats may sound smart, but these other guys seem to be onto something that is more relaistic...and might effect a young star developing in boston, more than big numbers in portland.

[sarasoxfan]

PS:

 

Have you considered that the article in the globe and remy's remarks might be part of a concerted effort to make this kid sound more ready then he is--and thus make him more appealing as trade bait..sound slike something the bush administration might do, but it seems plausible.

[Zenny]

i respect remy and indeed have always agreed the guy is a prospect, I just oject to your the perpetual fawning over a prospect who is years away from being ripe. I think the Tejada conmparison is as total stretch. It's simplitistic, and pointless. There are probably loads of all-stars who dont have the numbers hanley has, and some guys who are stiffs who have better minor league numbers--in my opinion it is not a helpful way to judge talent. That being said, the redsox rarely wait for these guys to develop--hiostorically speaking, they play to win now, and usually use these guys as trade bait later on. He may turn out to be as good as you predict and he may not, but getting back to thread I would be stunned if he played center in 06 or was in the majors in 06-

What do you care to base the anti-Tejada comparison sentiment on? They are similar in lots of ways, from scouting reports to physical size to age relative to level to plate discipline to overall ability they possessed at the same career stage. It's almost uncanny at how similar the two are.

 

Guys that are good in the minors but suck in the majors are one of two things: physical guys who can't control the plate or poor athletes who get exposed when their inferior physical tools (or stuff in the case of a pitcher) is placed up against the best of the best. Hanley knows how to control the plate and he's a superior athlete. He doesn't fit into either of these categories. There's always the potential for him to get hurt, but that's a different issue that can affect anyone.

 

There has never been a player that has sucked in the minors and been good in the majors. Don't even try using Jeff Bagwell because he was incredible at controlling the plate and hit an assload of doubles, showing lots of power potential that manifested itself soon after.

 

As far as that Maroth/Bonderman comparison, it's only valid to a certain extent. Bonderman was jumped all the way from high-A to the majors. He missed the two most pivotal developmental steps and should have reached the majors at the middle of last season, not at the beginning of '03. Big mistake by Detroit. Maroth was just an inferior pitcher on a team that had one of the worst offenses of all-time, compounding the fact that he sucked with zero run support. Yes, that wouldn't been tolerated in a market like Boston, but competent managment would never have allowed it to get to that point.

 

If Hanley plays in Boston, it'll be because he's ready. Nomar was ready; he started. If Hanley hits like he can in AAA this season and Damon does not return, Theo will in all likelihood put the kid in CF.

[Zenny]

Your boy has already had some maturity issues and that might be something to consider--cold calcuated re-quoting of Baseball america prospect lists and quoting stats may sound smart, but these other guys seem to be onto something that is more relaistic...and might effect a young star developing in boston, more than big numbers in portland.

The maturity issues are behind him. He was a kid trying to adjust to a new country and language at age 18 and 19. I know all of us were idiots at that age, nevermind going to a new country where no one spoke a language you understood. All of that is behind him.

 

Name the last big prospect anyone had that fizzled out because he couldn't handle pressure. If you can do that for me, I'll give you a million dollars. There are always underlying things (plate discipline, physical tools, injury) that cause a player to fizzle out and pressure is none of them. Please, I'd love to agree with you, but you don't have any real examples or prior experience to judge this on. I eagerly await your response.

[sarasoxfan]

wow he's 20---"all of that is behind him".um, 18 and 19 indeed are behind him..but please.how do you know??? again one of your seemingly impressive and exrtaordinarily definitive remarks about something you couldnt possibly have any knowledge of-now that I see it yet again--that's what bugs me---nothing personal mind you...just snotty remarks with this plugged in holier than thou attitude--Does he call you before he does something stupid. Hi Zenny--"yeah it's Hanley--wow, I have matured in a year..yo..yo..yo...did you see babeball america..yeah, wow. dude..yeah take care and thnaks for your support"..

 

I strongly doubt theo will put a guy who has limited home run power and no experience in CF becasue he's a good athlete if god forbid damon leaves--a free agent a trade with a prospect like hanley, for example....

 

uncanny how similar they are-except for one is now an all-star and one is 20...-I still think it's a strech..kind of like the way you misquote me.

 

I didnt say sucked in the minors...and although those guys talked about pressure--I said there is more patience on other clubs to let these guys mature, and not so in boston.

 

How many minor leaguers have gfone through the redsox system since nomar and not been brought up--a lot.

 

Management luckiy doesnt seem to fawn l;ike you do, and trades these guys away so they can develop on someone else's dime--so if history repeats itself we wont have to get back into this kind of debate.

 

.

[BoSox Rule]

How many minor leaguers have gfone through the redsox system since nomar and not been brought up--a lot.

Coincidentally, Hanley is the only great one.

[sarasoxfan]

coincidentally, I hope you're right but until I see something tangible in AAA I think it's too early to be tossing around words like great and comparisons to allstar like tejada, and way way to early to be dreaming up new positions for the guy...let's see something in pawtucket and then oops, I mean I then we;ll see.

 

 

Luckily the club has proven the willingingness to over pay some veterens rather than investing in youth with time and money...

 

I believe your friend zenny was against signing varitek in the hopes of seeing shoppach brought along. (Oh, I wont mention edgar) Indeed, management is willing to pay a lot to avoid the risk of youth.

 

thus, I woiuld say the chances are very good this club will re-sign damon...one of the best leaderoff hitters in baseball is still the directionI would rpefere to see us to go in--over a prospect--who to this point hasnt played above AA

[Zenny]

wow he's 20---"all of that is behind him".um, 18 and 19 indeed are behind him..but please.how do you know??? again one of your seemingly impressive and exrtaordinarily definitive remarks about something you couldnt possibly have any knowledge of-now that I see it yet again--that's what bugs me---nothing personal mind you...just snotty remarks with this plugged in holier than thou attitude--Does he call you before he does something stupid. Hi Zenny--"yeah it's Hanley--wow, I have matured in a year..yo..yo..yo...did you see babeball america..yeah, wow. dude..yeah take care and thnaks for your support"..

That was an interesting little conversation you put together there, but I'd trust Jim Callis and John Sickels, who have spoken with both Hanley himself and the Sox front office and both parties agree that all maturity issues are gone. Check out Sickels' website (http://www.minorleagueball.com) and look it up or check out the chat Callis did on BA. I think you can tell by now that I don't make things up, but rather quote what others say.

 

We haven't had a prospect the caliber of Hanley since Nomar.

 

uncanny how similar they are-except for one is now an all-star and one is 20...-I still think it's a strech..kind of like the way you misquote me.

We're comparing them at points in their respective careers and I fail to see where I misquoted you. So you don't have a cow, I'll quote every word you say directly.

 

I didnt say sucked in the minors...and although those guys talked about pressure--I said there is more patience on other clubs to let these guys mature, and not so in boston.

There certainly is more patience elsewhere, which is why I've said on a dozen occasions that, "If Hanley's ready, he'll start".

 

How many minor leaguers have gfone through the redsox system since nomar and not been brought up--a lot.

How many have been as good as Hanley since Nomar? None.

 

Management luckiy doesnt seem to fawn l;ike you do, and trades these guys away so they can develop on someone else's dime--so if history repeats itself we wont have to get back into this kind of debate.

I'm not fawning. As a matter of fact, I think BA's ranking of Hanley is a bit high at 10 (I was thinking more 20). I am merely stating that if a kid is ready to produce, why not get him into the starting lineup? I'm not saying that we have a team full of 21 year olds.

[Zenny]

coincidentally, I hope you're right but until I see something tangible in AAA I think it's too early to be tossing around words like great and comparisons to allstar like tejada, and way way to early to be dreaming up new positions for the guy...let's see something in pawtucket and then oops, I mean I then we;ll see.

At the same point in their careers, they were very similar players. That's all we've said. No one said he's definitely going to be the best shortstop in the game (like Tejada is), but he has the potential.

 

Luckily the club has proven the willingingness to over pay some veterens rather than investing in youth with time and money...

Why overpay for someone on the wrong side of 30? I still think the Varitek contract, while good in the short term, is going to become an albatross by 2008.

 

I believe your friend zenny was against signing varitek in the hopes of seeing shoppach brought along. (Oh, I wont mention edgar) Indeed, management is willing to pay a lot to avoid the risk of youth.

I was hoping to see Shoppach brought along. Even so, Shoppach is not as good as Hanley is. Oh, and what is the risk of youth? Getting the same production for a fraction of the price.

 

thus, I woiuld say the chances are very good this club will re-sign damon...one of the best leaderoff hitters in baseball is still the directionI would rpefere to see us to go in--over a prospect--who to this point hasnt played above AA

This is also why I've said in this thread, "If Damon hits like 2004, they're going to bring him back." If he reverts to his pre-2004 career average, he's not worth the money he's asking for and likely won't be brought back.

 

You know, you bring up a lot of hypotheticals with no real evidence behind them. You talk about all these imaginary players that never made it in Boston because of the pressure and lack of patience. You talk about all these amazing stud prospects we've had in the system that have been traded away. The fact of the matter is that the system has been stocked with bench players and mop-up bullpen guys for a lot of years. The system is finally coming around and Hanley can be the first real manifestation of that. Remember the $100 million dollar player development machine that Theo was talking about when he was first handed the reigns? You probably don't, but I digress. It wasn't for nothing. This team is committed to restocking the farm to develop younger players, some to help the team directly, others as trade fodder. I'm all for trading prospects if you can get something you need in return, but when a guy with the potential to be a superstar comes around, you don't waste it on bullpen help or a short-term centerfielder.

 

Your ignorance isn't fully allowing your opinion to come out, which can be a very valid one if there was more evidence to back it up. Until I see you some up with something tangible, you really have little basis.

[sarasoxfan]

more of the same out of you...tiring....you'll go to your grave without ever amditting that you were remotely wrong about anything..and call anyone ignornant who doesnt agree with you.

 

If I had a dollar for every time some smug little unathletic dweeb said there's the next mickey mantle I'd be rich.

 

So here's the to the next nomar or tejada who ever else you want to compare a kid with AA numbers too..

 

Funny thing is I hope for once you're actually right..

[Zenny]

more of the same out of you...tiring....you'll go to your grave without ever amditting that you were remotely wrong about anything..and call anyone ignornant who doesnt agree with you.

More of the same what? What am I wrong about? The situation is far from resolved yet for either of us to be correct. I'm also not saying that people who disagree with me are ignorant, I'm say you're ignorant because you having nothing to back up what you say. I enjoy a good challenge from someone with facts, data, stories, etc., but it's funny how I never seem to get that from you.

 

If I had a dollar for every time some smug little unathletic dweeb said there's the next mickey mantle I'd be rich.

You don't know me at all, but hey, whatever.

 

So here's the to the next nomar or tejada who ever else you want to compare a kid with AA numbers too..

Funny how I've used the words "potential" and "could be capable of" as definitive words in your view. What language do you speak?

 

Funny thing is I hope for once you're actually right..

Good.

[BoSox Rule]

Someone actually lets him use a computer....I'm in shock...

[sarasoxfan]

oh that was a good one..haha

 

zenny that was a good, unemotional, funny, and damn good post.

 

I admit it..you got me good.

 

bosoxdrool...yours well, pretty typical. does zenny wipe you or do you do that alone-yet??

[BoSox Rule]

You're like I'm not a super mod <_ got robbed it yeah hurts.>

[ahhchon]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000VCZ5W.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

 

here you go ladies..

 

man i love doing that.

 

john

[mosox]

Sheets isn't a free agent after this season. He's under contract through '06 and he and the Brewers are nearing a multi-year deal similar to what Santana got. I think they'll finalize it after this season, in which he dominates yet again.

 

 

Sheets IS in the last year of his contract. His agent just arrived in Brewers camp this weekend looking for a 4 year deal at 10 mill per yr. Plus can Sheets really want to stay with four more years of winning 11 or 12 games a season?

[Zenny]

Sheets IS in the last year of his contract. His agent just arrived in Brewers camp this weekend looking for a 4 year deal at 10 mill per yr. Plus can Sheets really want to stay with four more years of winning 11 or 12 games a season?

He's asking for a similar contract to Santana, who wasn't a free agent after this year either, he was in the same class as Sheets ('06) or one after ('07), I can't remember which. Look at his service time. It only adds up to 4 full seasons so far. This will be his 5th, next will be his 6th.

[yeszir]

The article on Sheets in one of the recent issues in ESPN has made me really pessimistic about signing him next year. The Brewers plan to build around him, and supposedly, he plans on staying.

[CrespoBlows]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000VCZ5W.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

 

here you go ladies..

 

man i love doing that.

 

john

 

 

That was f***ing hillarous

[Zenny]

The article on Sheets in one of the recent issues in ESPN has made me really pessimistic about signing him next year. The Brewers plan to build around him, and supposedly, he plans on staying.

They have a lot of stud talent on the way up and they're probably going to compete in three or four years. Yes, that's still a long time away, but they'll be interesting to watch. I look at them like the '02 Guardians. They stockpiled young talent and it began to manifest itself at the end of last season. Same could be said for the BrewCrew in 2-3 years.

[CrespoBlows]

They have a lot of stud talent on the way up and they're probably going to compete in three or four years. Yes, that's still a long time away, but they'll be interesting to watch. I look at them like the '02 Guardians. They stockpiled young talent and it began to manifest itself at the end of last season. Same could be said for the BrewCrew in 2-3 years.

 

Call me crazy, but the Brewers might have a shot this year. (Not winning it all, competing)

They got an improved offense behind Carlos Lee, a solid rotation with Sheets leading it, and a potential stud closer in Mike Adams. I see them being the '04 Guardians, they'll compete but fade down the end.

 

BTW, did you realize the Crew were over .500 before the all star break? How about that?

[RedSoxRooter]

Crazy!

 

 

(sorry, I'm smellin' that thousand posts... )

[ahhchon]

That was f***ing hillarous

 

yeah, i know, it never gets old to me. i use it one way or another on every forum i post in. always people bitching.

 

i can't wait for fantasy to start. drafting is the best part. my league is going to suck. it's head to head.. probably the dumbest thing ever..

 

john