Hugh2

Fleeced is the wrong word. As the old saying goes a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. They paid the price for admission but you'll run out of money eventually if you go crazy. If the Sox make a trade like this every year then you can expect a team in the basement in 4-6 years from now. I don't want to just go for it...I want to build a DYNASTY. I want a New England Patriot mentality of never giving up more value than you're bringing in, because eventually you rarely have to make these trades. I'm not 80 years old, I don't have to worry about dying next year so I want the Sox to go for it this year at all costs.

Espinoza is not Casey kelley, you shouldn't compare prospects if you know little about them.

Yes he was already a fixture because they held onto him and let him develop. Also as pointed out earlier trading away a top prospect helped them win in 2004 so I'm not against ever trading top prospects I just A.) don't want to be fleeced and B.) don't want to go overboard and gut the system. With this trade I do think we overpaid but we haven't gut the system, and I understand it's a sellers market and this is the price you pay. But Warrent Buffett didn't become rich from always buying at the top and selling on the bottom, if trades like this is the norm and teams always go for it at all cost there will come a day when your team is s***.

I've specifically said he's never pitched over 102 in the big leagues and 150 in a MLB season. 147 is his high??? and there is zero concern if he can go 200+ and into the post season???

No it wasn't, but Lester was a HUGE part of that 2013 team. What if this team had traded Lester away in 06 or 07 for some chips....would we have had that run in 2007? There is really no way to tell but it's not a stretch to say we would not have won in 2013.

You have to take a lot of what everyone says with a grain of salt. A scout can see a guy on a good day or a bad day, but they still know more than me or you yet they can still be wrong. I do put a lot of faith into Soxprospects for 2 reasons. Firstly, they are often a lot lower on guys that are regarded higher around the nation which makes me think they are fair and not homers, I remember how surprised they were that everyone else was so high on Lars Anderson. And lastly but more importantly they have more eyes on our guys than anyone else, and they are there looking at them in more frequency as well with the obvious caveat of the actual Red Sox scouting department.

If this is it, and DD holds onto Moncada and Benintendi, and is ok trading away Espy because he wants to develop Groome and Kopech I can live with that. But if this is just a representation of everything he's done in the past and he will inevitably keep on trading away our top prospects....then I don't like it at all.

Well I beg to differ, the whole point I keep going back to here is the importance of building a system and not giving away blue chip prospects lightly. That's exactly what we did here, and that's exactly what we didn't do in 2013 and initially it was said we did. So in the context of this argument I'd so it's totally relevant.

I love it when people think they can know everything they need to know about a prospect by looking at a box score.

I'm still going to wake up tomorrow and put my pants on the same way. I'm just a fan of building up systems and developing talent and I'd prefer to stay put than overpay, but life goes on and I'm excited to see if Drew can help this team down the stretch.

Oh I think there is a difference. Now if DD is done in the larger scheme of things this trade nor the Kimbrel hurts us. But if gutting the system becomes the norm it's going to really hurt this team down the road. Maybe others don't care about the future, but I do. It's not just this trade its' the combination of DD's willingness to gut systems. I have no problem with this, only that in excess it concerns me. Will he trade Devers for a relief pitcher at the deadline next year? is he going to trade Moncada and Benintendi for a #2 this offseason. Those trades pile up. Imagine if we traded Betts away or JBJ away? this offense would still be really good....but try to imagine this team without all 3 of Betts, JBJ, and Bogaerts? When trading top prospects and gutting the system because the norm and not just something you do once to go for it you will reap what you sow.

No they don't, but they also do.....and we can't really judge that either way right now.

How do you have 3 trades in there??? Peavy was the only guy who started a post season game who was traded for. And the Sox traded from an organizational strength at a position they already had filled and guys ready to step into. Also, love him or hate him but Iggy was never a top 20 prospect. Although he was MLB ready. Dempster was a FA Lester, Buchholz were home grown and Lackey was another FA.

If you're a Padres fan you sure can.

While a few don't like it, it seems like the consensus is that most Padres fans really like this deal. http://forums.sandiegouniontribune.com/showthread.php?t=132594&page=15 http://www.forums.mlb.com/discussions/San_Diego_Padres/General/Pomeranz_to_BoSox/ml-padres/43223.1?nav=messages Also if you go back further, most Padre fans knew they were out of contention and calling for their team to be sellers. They knew they were sellers and knew Pomeranz was their best chip.

If you're a Padres fan you're saying that you're 19 games out of first place and you just acquired a guy you bought recently for garbage and turned him into your #1 prospect and one of the best prospects in baseball.

It's also funny that they won the last two with pitchers they developed. And in 2004 team was headlined by two aces they acquired via trade or FA, not via trading for a somewhat unproven #2 #3 starter.

Well if you trade away your top pitching prospects you're never going to develop a good one either. Also good young pitching is the rarest commodity in baseball, and it's very hard to draft and develop. Especially when you don't normally draft in the top 10 every year like other teams.

Listen I'm not telling people this team isn't better, or you have to be concerned with this trade like me. But liking this trade doesn't have to be analogous with trying to water down how good Espinoza is and what his potential is.

I agree 100% which is exactly why I'm more of a fan of trying to develop pitching. Yes all prospects don't make it, but I heard one scout say yesterday and I'm paraphrasing here "If you are trying to compare Espinoza to a past Red Sox pitching prospect you can't because there hasn't been one like him in decades" Sure he could bust, but you keep a guy like him Kopech and Groome in your system and there is a very good chance you're going to end up with at least one good pitcher. People say this team can't develop pitching, well that's because good young pitching is the rarest commodity in MLB and we don't exactly have the best reputation of trading for pitching and signing pitchers either.

Because he's 18 and facing guys 3-4 years older than him. Also 18 year olds don't throw lots of innings and are building up arm strength and still filling out, this is his very first full season of professional baseball. This is a kid who has never thrown more than 48.1 innings in a season....think about that. That can throw a guys mechanics off but scouts seem little concerned with his struggles....if anything it will make him a better pitcher one day. I specifically remember soxprospects predicting he would struggle more the rest of the year yet his prospect status wouldn't drop one bit. I'll double down on that bet. In the absence of injury I'd suspect a big jump forward when he enters his second full season at 19 and lot stronger.

You can love and hate this trade at the same time and I won't let anyone in here tell me differently. He makes your team a lot better right now, but also has a huge potential to hurt the future. That's not necessarily an argument against the trade it's just a fact; you can be concerned with the possibility of gutting the system and the ramification it may hold but also be excited about going on a post season run this year and for the next several years with this team. My biggest concern with Pomeranz is he's never pitched more than 102 innings at the MLB level and never more than 150 in a season. Now he's a big guy, with a good pitchers frame and the strength to be a starter and he seems to be able to get guys out efficiently 2nd and 3rd times through the order so that mitigates that risk. BUT, if you're not somewhat concerned about this guy disappearing in October then you are just not paying attention. What will his innings total be then? 190? 200? We have no ideal if he can reach that level of innings pitch because he never has before and we also have zero ideal how effective he will be if he tires down the stretch. That is a risk, a very real risk. So are prospects. Here is a good read on the trade from Soxprospects, I encourage you all to give it a good read. http://news.soxprospects.com/2016/07/trade-analysis-scouting-espinoza-for.html

I was against the Pablo signing the day it was made, you should remember that. I'll never forget that comment you made pointing out how I hate fat people by picking letters out of a mutli paragraph response. I literally spit water out of my mouth and all over my computer screen that day.

This conversation is pointless and going in circles. I hate the trade, you guys like it. f*** it, it is what it is. I can get on board with being happy that the team got a guy who solidifies this rotation, and if history is any lesson he might be getting better and we have him for two years. DD has made every move so far to fill every hole, this team is a legit contender for the WS now. I can get behind that, but I will remain disappointed we lost Espinoza, but I'll try to shelve those feelings until he's winning the Cy Young in 4 years from now.

Well, Pablo should have lost 30.