moonslav59

I always thought they should plan the NFL schedule to have the Super Bowl the day before President's Day, so we have the day after off. I realize outdoor winter playoff games are not preferable, but at least it would shorten up this lull.

Poor Nap. Good one! Must be nice to have to settle on just $8.5M! I get your point though. The market just fell off a cliff for big slugger 1B/DH types.

I'll shorten the list. Here's just the Theo list with the minor to lower/mid-level moves removed... Theo (11/25/02 to 10/21/11): E Bedard for S Fife & others Aceves, Okajima II, Jenks, D Wheeler, A Miller II, R Hill, Albers FA Crawford, VTek III FA AGon for Rizzo, Kelly & Fuentes Bogaerts & Iglesias Amateur or Int’l FA VMart for Masterson & Hagadone Kotchman for Adam LaRoche A LaRoche fo Strickland Smoltz, Penney, Saito, VTek II, Baldelli, N Green, Josh Bard FA Tazawa FA Ramon Ramirez for C Crisp Paul Byrd for Mickey Hall Jason Bay for Manny Ramirez, Craig Hansen & Brandon Moss B Colon, Timlin, M Lowell & C Schilling FA Daniel Nava for $1 (FA) Eric Gagne for K Gabbard, David Murphy & E Beltre JD Drew, Lugo, Okajima, A Castillo, J Pineiro FA J Lopez for Adam Stern Kottares for David Wells Mirabelli for Cla Meredith & Josh Bard Willy Mo Pena for B Arroyo JT Snow, Breslow, Alex Gonzo, R Seanez FA Coco Crisp & D Riske for A Marte, Shoppach & G Moto M Loretta for Mirabelli Beckett & Lowell for HanRam, A Sanchez and others Doubront amateur FA Extended Schilling (was hurt that year) Renteria, M Clement, Wade Miller, D Wells, Olerud FA_______ O Cabrera & Mientkiewicz for Garciaparra Foulke, Reese, F Castillo FA Schilling for Fossum, Jorge de la Rosa & B Lyon Brandon Lyon & Jeff Suppan for Freddy Sanchez & cash S Williamson for Dumatrait Ortiz, Mueller, R. Mendoza, Timlin, C Fox FA Todd Walker for Thigpen and Blanco Theo Draft Picks: (Mike Port drafted Lester & B Moss in 2002.) 2003: 1) D Murphy 1S Matt Murton/ 2S A Alvarez (C Floyd comp) 4) Papelbon 2004 (No 1st due to K Foulke signing) 2) Pedroia 2005 (Lost our pick for signing Renteria) For OCab: 1 Ellsbury/2 Lowrie For DLowe: 1 C Hansen/2 M Bowden For Pedro: 1 Buchholz/2 J Egan _________________________________ 2006: 1) Jason Place (27th pick) For Damon: 1) D Bard/1S K Johnson For Mueller: 1S Caleb Clay/3 A Bates 2) J Masterson 17) J Reddick 2007: (Lost our pick for signing J Lugo.) For Gonzo: 1S N Hagadone For Foulke: 1S Ryan Dent 5) Middlebrooks 6) A Rizzo 2008: 1) Casey Kelly (30) For Gagne: 1S Bryan Price For Morris: 3 S Fife 9) C Vazquez 2009: 1) Reymond Fuentes (28) 2) Alex Wilson 2010: (Lost our first for signing Lackey) For B Wagner: 1 K Vitek (20)/A Ranaudo (39) For J Bay: 1 B Brentz (36)/2 Workman ______________________________________ 2011 (A great draft aided by comp picks) For VMart: 1 Barnes (19)/Owens (36) For Beltre: 1 Swihart (26)/ JBJ (40) 5) M Betts (172) 9) T Shaw International Signings: 04-05: Doubront 05-06: Y Navarro, Chih-Hsien Chiang 06-07: Dice K, Okajima, S Pimental, O tejada, E Beltre 07-08: R Mendea 08-09: Tazawa, W Cueves, Oscar Perez 09-10: X Bogaerts, J Iglesias, F Montas 10-11: J Aro, A. Ibarra, Juan Carlos Linares

Napoli to Rangers for a reported $8.5M/1.

I can't wait until we have some real life baseball events to discuss.

I probably should have left off some mid level moves.

I generally feel like focusing too much on any one signing or transaction is an exercise in straining at gnats. You don't get a good idea of the performance of a GM by stressing about any one move. You have to analyze the strength and health of the franchise over his tenure to really get a picture. I agree, but I do feel there was a general decline in quality trades and free agent signings from the beginning towards the end. The draft picks fell off a cliff until 2011's stacked draft brought about by 4 comp picks. I will say that Theo's efforts after 07 were focused on maintaining an increasingly precarious balancing act, and the moment that he fell off the tightrope was probably the 2009-2010 offseason. the inability to properly replace Jason Bay, the loss of Jonathan Papelbon without a true replacement, the final demise of Mike Lowell, the beginning of the end of Tim Wakefield, the signing of Scutaro to try to play starting SS which I still maintain was a disproportionately major mistake due to a combination of the delusion of adequacy and the opportunity cost relative to other possible acquisitions at shortstop... I think it's pretty clear that it was that offseason when the franchise took the serious step backward that Theo spent the rest of his tenure trying to recover from. I totally agree. The Beckett-Lowell deal brought us a few more years of high level competition perhaps at the expense of a longer view, but by 2009-2010, we needed to hit on something. The Crawford signing was a major swing and miss. His contract alone was going to adversely affect our outlook for 7 years had the Dodger deal not bailed us out. You are right, though, concentrating on one move (or a handful of moves) does a disservice to the overall Theo evaluation. That was also IIRC the year that we stopped getting lucky with the minor leaguers and young players we developed from the minors. Middlebrooks, Reddick, Buchholz, and Bard spring to mind as players from which we asked a lot and got very little, and it was the 2010 season where that trend really started biting us in the tail. Very true, and the one draft pick that amounted to anything great we had in that 5 year period (Rizzo) was traded in 2010. The team and farm Theo left Ben was not a bad one. The budget was a mess, but once Ben (or Larry L) got the Dodgers to get us off the hook, the framework was still there to keep up a highly competitive team with some further shrewd moves. The 2013 team worked, but the Masterson, Pablo and to some extent the HanRam signing came up woefully short. .

Figures. It was.

You're trippin' !

Some obsrvations.... On the drafts: I know winning lowers your place in the draft, but the draft picks from 2006 to 2010 (5 years), except for Rizzo, were seriously worse than 2003-2005 and 2011. I know Theo took some grief for letting VMart and Beltre walk, but their comp picks really helped stock the farm for Ben & Co. I several Theo moves after the Nomar trade. The Beltre signing was genius. The VMart trade was a steal. I liked the Crisp trade, but he never really developed his bat like I thought he would. No one can fault him for extending Schilling, but his health went down hill that winter. The JD Drew signing was one big long debate. The Smoltz-Penny signings nearly killed me, but I think it was the CC signing that maybe left a sour taste in my mouth near the end of his tenure here. I hated to see him go. No GM ever did what he did with my beloved Sox since I started following them in the early 70's. To see what he has done with the Cubs in such a short time is nothing short of stupendous. The Cubs rise to the top and WS victory cemented the legend.

Tell me in how this statement: "I was sad to see him go, but after the Nomar Trade, he wasn't really all that great" negates the statement that "Theo is the best GM in my lifetime". One cannot be great for a period of time, but still be great (or the best) in a larger period of time (which includes his time with the Cubs). It is possible. Your brain must be locked into some sort of spastic swirling alternate universe. I can't stop laughing. I almost spit out my mac'n'cheese on this one.

Lots and lots of transactions. Lots.

What a clown! Another example of your jumbled mind. I never said Theo was "not that great at all". And, you claim you have reading comprehension skills. LMAO!

So after pages and pages or circular conversations, can we definitively say our teams biggest weakness is the lack of "clutchness"? (LOL)

I think think Theo is the greatest GM of my lifetime. Some things Branch Rickey did pushed the envelope in ways that are hard to quantify and compare from eras before my time. Theo did a fantastic job bringing Dan D's team to the next level and then keeping us at a high level for many years. I'm so thankful he was out GM. He did such a fantastic job his first few years that it is not a negative thing to say his middle and later years were not as great as the earlier ones. I was very careful to say that some could argue those years of acquisitions and drafting were mediocre. I would not take that position. I think he did better than Average after the Nomar trade. I also pointed out that some of the comp picks Theo drafted after Nomar were gained from players he acquired before the Nomar trade. My argument was that those players could be at least partially credited to the pre-Nomar trade ledger, but if posters don't want to count that, it's fine with me. I couldn't find the file that broke down the major deals by Theo. It went into great detail on every move. I found this list of significant to major deals made by each GM from Dan D up to and including Ben (I was more selective of "major deals" prior to 2013. If anyone notices a significant deal I missed, feel free to comment.): Ben (10/25/11 to 8/18/15)D: Rich Hill, Jean Machi FA PTBNL for Napoli and Mujica Rutledge for Vic & cash Leon for cash Robbie Ross for Ranaudo Hanigan for Middlebrooks Varvaro for Kurcz Miley for de la Rosa & Webster Porcello for Cespedes & Alex Wilson Ogando, Masterson, Sandoval & Ramirez FA Rusney Castillo Int’l FA Cespedes & Comp Pick for Lester, Gomes & cash Kelly & Craig for Lackey, Litrell & cash E Rodriguez for Andrew Miller Marco Hernandez for Doubront H Hembree & E Escobar for Peavy & cash S Drew (II) FA Napoli, Mujica, Layne & Pierzynski FA Peavy for Iglesias & Montas Mike Carp for cash Napoli, Victorino, Dempster, Uehara, Gomes & Drew (I) FA Holt & Hanrahan forMelancon & others John Farrell for Aviles De la Rosa, Webster, Loney for AGon, Crawford,Beckett, Punto & cash Breslow for Albers and Podsednik Wright for Lars Anderson Lillibridge & Z Stewart for Youkilis Podsednik for cash Marlon Byrd for M Bowden Cody Ross, Shoppach, R Hill FA Mortenson for Scutaro Bailey & R Sweeney for Reddick & others Melancon for Lowrie & Weiland Duarte for Marwin Gonzalez Theo (11/25/02 to 10/21/11): E Bedard for S Fife & others Aceves, Okajima II, Jenks, D Wheeler, A Miller II, R Hill, Albers FA Crawford, VTek III FA AGon for Rizzo, Kelly & Fuentes B Wagner for C Carter Bogaerts & Iglesias Amateur or Int’l FA VMart for Masterson & Hagadone Kotchman for Adam LaRoche A LaRoche fo Strickland Smoltz, Penney, Saito, VTek II, Baldelli, N Green, Josh Bard FA Tazawa FA Ramon Ramirez for C Crisp Paul Byrd for Mickey Hall Jason Bay for Manny Ramirez, Craig Hansen & Brandon Moss D Aardsma for Willy Mota B Colon, Timlin, M Lowell & C Schilling FA Daniel Nava for $1 (FA) Sean Danielson for Joel Pineiro Eric Gagne for K Gabbard, David Murphy & E Beltre JD Drew, Lugo, Okajima, A Castillo, J Pineiro FA J Lopez for Adam Stern Kottares for David Wells Mirabelli for Cla Meredith & Josh Bard Willy Mo Pena for B Arroyo JT Snow, Breslow, Alex Gonzo, R Seanez FA Coco Crisp & D Riske for A Marte, Shoppach & G Moto M Loretta for Mirabelli Beckett & Lowell for HanRam, A Sanchez and others Doubront amateur FA Extended Schilling (was hurt that year) Renteria, M Clement, Wade Miller, D Wells, Olerud FA_______ O Cabrera & Mientkiewicz for Garciaparra Foulke, Reese, F Castillo FA Bellhorn for ??? Schilling for Fossum, Jorge de la Rosa & B Lyon Merloni for Miniel Brandon Lyon & Jeff Suppan for Freddy Sanchez & cash S Williamson for Dumatrait Ortiz, Mueller, R. Mendoza, Timlin, C Fox FA Todd Walker for Thigpen and Blanco Je Giambi for J Hancock Dan D (1994 to 2002) Tony Clark & Brandon Lyons off waivers A Embree for Brad Baker & D Giese R Henderson, J Burkett, Baerga, Buford, M Coleman FA Reese for Hatteberg Hermanson for 3 players D Oliver for Carl Everett U Urbina for Tomo Ohka Anibal Sanchez & Jorge de la Rosa Amateur & Int’l FA Manny Ramirez FA Nomo, Wakefield, F Castillo, P Schourek FA Chris Stynes for Donnie sadler & M Coleman D Bichette for Reitsma & Curtice Mike Lansing & Rolando Arrojo for Jeff Frye, Brian Rose & J Wasdin Hanley Ramirez Amateur FA Jeff Fassero FA Carl Everett for Adam Everett Rod Beck for M Guthrie M Portugal, Offerman FA Mike Stanley for Peter Munro Pedro Martinez for Carl Pavano & Tony Armas Jr. Tony Armas Jr. for Mike Stanley VTek & D Lowe for H Slocumb S Avery & Saberhagen FA Darren Bragg for Jamie Moyer Tom Gordon FA Rick Aguilera for Frankie Rodriguez Wakefield, Reggie Jefferson, FA Troy O’Leary off waivers Theo Draft Picks: (Mike Port drafted Lester & B Moss in 2002.) 2003: 1) D Murphy 1S Matt Murton/ 2S A Alvarez (C Floyd comp) 4) Papelbon 2004 (No 1st due to K Foulke signing) 2) Pedroia 2005 (Lost our pick for signing Renteria) For OCab: 1 Ellsbury/2 Lowrie For DLowe: 1 C Hansen/2 M Bowden For Pedro: 1 Buchholz/2 J Egan _________________________________ 2006: 1) Jason Place (27th pick) For Damon: 1) D Bard/1S K Johnson For Mueller: 1S Caleb Clay/3 A Bates 2) J Masterson 17) J Reddick 2007: (Lost our pick for signing J Lugo.) For Gonzo: 1S N Hagadone For Foulke: 1S Ryan Dent 5) Middlebrooks 6) A Rizzo 2008: 1) Casey Kelly (30) For Gagne: 1S Bryan Price For Morris: 3 S Fife 9) C Vazquez 2009: 1) Reymond Fuentes (28) 2) Alex Wilson 2010: (Lost our first for signing Lackey) For B Wagner: 1 K Vitek (20)/A Ranaudo (39) For J Bay: 1 B Brentz (36)/2 Workman ______________________________________ 2011 (A great draft aided by comp picks) For VMart: 1 Barnes (19)/Owens (36) For Beltre: 1 Swihart (26)/ JBJ (40) 5) M Betts (172) 9) T Shaw International Signings: 04-05: Doubront 05-06: Y Navarro, Chih-Hsien Chiang 06-07: Dice K, Okajima, S Pimental, O tejada, E Beltre 07-08: R Mendea 08-09: Tazawa, W Cueves, Oscar Perez 09-10: X Bogaerts, J Iglesias, F Montas 10-11: J Aro, A. Ibarra, Juan Carlos Linares

What if I go commando?

He made a lot of moves. Lots and lots!

A lawyer. That explains it. Like questioning the meaning of "is".

You crack me up. You clearly have no clue about what the word "context" means. You totally ignored my explanations, even the most simple ones....my guess is out of spite or complete ignorance, but maybe there is some other reason for your continued misstatements and misrepresentations.

Lack of comprehension skills is on you. Lack of any understanding of how a rolling debate goes, where you don't have to keep going back and qualifying all your statements, because it was said before is something you have a hard time grasping. I'm fine with a misinterpretation here and there, but after you called me out on that statement, I explained it several times. You continue to keep misstating my position, even after a very easily understood and clear explanation of my position. That's on you. Own it. I owned up to how my statement could have been taken out of context.

Theo did not acquire Youk & Pedey after the Nomar trade. Our SSs after OCab were disasterous- not "no big loss". Crisp never reached expectations and was a drop off from Damon. We got Ellsbury for OCab, and I mentioned that as a qualified gain post Nomar. Letting Pedro & Lowe go was the right call. Theo did good after Nomar. Again, I'll bring the list out tonight. A lot was good. A lot was okay. A lot was not good.

Not really, but it does make me curious why someone would do what you do.

Fair enough. I've been accused of being too verbose, so sometimes I try to say things as briefly as possible. That means not explaining the nuances involved or the context of a rolling debate. I get that. The difference is, you don't misstate my positions. There's only one guy who keeps continuously misstating my positions, even after I have gone out of my way to explain it it in ever simplified ways.

Nobody else had trouble understanding. They may have disagreed, but they understood my point. Only you keep having trouble. Yet, somehow that's my fault in your eyes.

Yeah, I can see that. I think some people would say Theo's work after Nomar was substandard, but I think Theo did good after the Nomar trade but not great.