moonslav59

Now, I know you're lying.

I brought up Gammons, because you wrongly claimed everyone on the Fielding Bible was a sabermetrics guy, but hey your style of presenting false facts is obvious.

He also had a great ERA in a hit friendly park and league. I understand it's a gamble, but anyone you sign at these dollars is a prayer.

Jeter is "not the best or the worst." I guess it's easy to defend he's somewhere between #2 and #29. I seriously doubt this guy's debate team won any debates.

Man, you are so full of crap, I can smell it from Texas. You obviously know more than trained and calibrated experts, why? Because, apparently, you "played the game." (Note: so did I.)

Oh, now you respect a guy from the Fielding Bible when it suits you. I doubt Gammons ever picked him in his top 10, but I guess he could have been, since a few rare times Jete did get 1-3 points. I never said Gammons felt he was one of the worst. I used the FB to discredit the GG voting and show he never finished above #13 in their voting and more times than not got no votes- meaning he was below #16-23, since they only listed players who got votes. BTW, range does take into account instinct. So, am I to understand you might place him in the middle 33% of a 3 tier ranking? You won't answer my 50-50 question. You make fun of my "on the field more than anyone else,so that's what moves him fro 3-5th worst to worst," but I bet you have no problem with guys making the HOF just out of longevity and compiling big numbers because they played 22 seasons. Jeter sucked on D for over 11 years. He might have been close to the average mark the other seasons. I guess I'm not allowed to use the cumulative defense but others are. I'm fine, if you disagree, but don't say I have no evidence to back up my position. Don't say all I'm using is metrics. I thought Jeter sucked on D before I even heard of UZR, DRS and dWAR. It was based on my observations in games played vs the Sox and a few other games, plus discussions I've had with Sox and Yankee fans over the last 2 decades. I've never heard one person say he deserved the GG. Some Yankee fans felt he was a plus on D, but not great. It's funny how you bash my position, but at least I take a position. What's yours? Is he a top 15 defensive SS over his time period or bottom 15? When you answer, why not give me some reasons why, instead of just claiming 5 GGs over and over and quoting texts that discredit metrics, when we all know they are flawed, yet dozens of knowledgeable baseball people respect them and use them often. I could find some for you, but you could find them too, if you wanted to do it. The guy sucked on D. He made the plays hit within 5 feet of him in any direction. That does not make him plus. Most SS do that and then some.

How are simple plays made "embelished?" I never said it was all about range. Surely, making the plays most SSs make at a better rate has real value. My example I presented took that into account.

We all have our biases. I know I may be in the minority saying Jeter was the worst- maybe hyperbolic- maybe my Yankee hatred skewed my observations, but when so many different metrics and the Fielding Bible vote, which is a hell of a lot more accurate than the GG vote, confirms he's at least bottom 3-5, I don't feel like I'm that far off, if I'm wrong. I could be wrong. He could be the 25th worst out of the top 30 innings players those last 10-11 years, but in my mind, I'm a lot closer than the guys who voted for him to win the GG and the Sox fans who believe them, instead of their own eyes, the eyes of staunch Yankee fans, the eyes of the 10 guys on the F.B. and at least 3 separate metrics. Just about everyone I've ever met has agreed the voting for these awards are a joke. It's one reason it means little to me when a deserving player wins it.

I've addressed the flaws the metrics have dozens of time. Look you believe what you want, but if you even think he was a top 15 SS (out of 30), I'm sorry, I've lost all respect for you. I think he was the worst or possibly up to 3rd worst. I wouldn't argue with anyone who said he was 5th worst. I'm not basing all this on metrics. The metrics backed up my observations and the observations of many other people, including our resident Yankee fan. I'd say I have more evidence backing my position than you, but cling to your GG argument all you want. Can you at least admit he was never in the top tier (50%) on defense? (Not that I need you to do so.) This whole "played the game" crap is worse than any crap you read on metrics. BTW, I didn't know Peter Gammons, among others on the F.B. was a sabermetric guy.

I just made up an example with easy numbers to relate to, but every year some SSs do make 100 or more plays than others- same SS- year after year. Would a 40 more plays example be better? But, he makes 10 more errors? Sure, those high range players exist.

So, the GG vote has no "drawbacks?" 3 separate metrics all show he sucks, and it must be a quirk, because he was actually the best for 5 years. You really want to believe that? WOW! If you aren't Yankee fan, you should be. Now, find an article bashing The Fielding Bible. Those are "experts." I could find plenty on the GG vote, but it won't matter to you.

Here are some numbers for ages 23-26: Betts .305 116 375 in 2762 PAs (.382 OBP/.535 SLG/ .917 OPS) Great defense Yaz .299 65 287 in 2565 PAs (.389/.471/.860) Great defense Boggs .344 16 173 in 1792 PAs (.421/.448/.869) Called up at 24. Lynn .301 71 328 in 2362 PAs (.370/.494/.864) Great defense Rice .311 149 468 in 2768 PAs (.362/.570/.932) Had a better yr at 22 than 23 Nomar .337 113 420 in 2580 PAs (.386/.577/.963) Over rated on D Now, look at their next 10 years: OPS/ PAs .883/ 6609 Boggs .874/ 6459 Yaz .852/ 4881 Lynn .825/ 3443 Nomar .819/ 5602 Rice

I doubt he gets $11M. My guess is he gets $8M with incedntives or $12M/2 with incentives or a buy out. All of these amounts are too much, IMO.

Those "eyeballs" voted a DH the GG at 1B. How can you possibly place value on that process?

Keep bashing UZR/150 all you want, but it was DRS that showed Jeter was as bad as the next worst two combined. No Fielding Bible ranking ever placed him in the top 12. That's not sabermetrics. Jacko all but called him a butcher at the end of his career. Being a Yankee fan like you, I'd think you'd respect jacko.

What makes you think the GG voters are experts? IMO, he's the worst. I'd agree on 3 to 5th worst for those 11 years. If you want to claim I'm moving the goalposts, fine. I still think he was the worst, and I have evidence to prove it, and not just sabermetrics. The Fielding Bible is stacked with experts and they never placed him in the top 13, so that right there throws out the 55 GGs, which is all you got. Give it up. He sucked- royally.

Exactly.It's certainly a bigger scam than UZR/150+ DRS+ Fielding Bible + dWAR.

The worst part about the Jeter Gold Glove Awards is that all were after he had declined! Take his 2009 award,perhaps the biggest scam of all, he couldn't even finish in the top 17 on The Fielding Bible. (Same with 2006- 18th place .) He must have fooled one or two voters on that committee, so I guess some Sox fans are not alone, but since he never got more than 1-3 points, none of the members could ever have ranked him higher than #7. (He got one vote as the 10th best in 2008, and he got no votes in 2010- yet we're supposed to believe he was the best in 2009.) He got one point in 2008 (22nd out of 22 who got votes.) He got no votes for top 10 in 2010 (22 others did.) No votes in 2011 (16 got 1+ votes) None in 2012 (16 did.) None in 2013 (19 did.) None in 2014 (24 did.)

I know plenty of Yankee fans and all admit Jeter was at best below average his last 10-11 years of his career. I find it fascinating that we have Sox fans defending his horrendous defense. They watched the same games I did, and whoop-dee-freakin-doo, he hardly made any errors. This whole "few errors" argument is so old and tired and short-sighted I'm tired of even debating the issue anymore.

Crickets is the reply, because there is no valid response. The example of them choosing a DH as their GG 1Bman is but one of the many jokes they've chosen- Jeter being a fine example. One can argue he was not the worst. One can even argue he was not the worst 3 or 5, but to argue he was even a plus defender after year 3-4 is a total clown joke. Winning multiple GGs isone of the biggest scams of all time, in terms of awards. The guy was never top 15, let alone #1.

I've read all this and more. Jeter sucked on D, and not just because the stats backed up by observations.

Exactly. My point was about being in the field so much his defense made him the worst. Longevity counts when it's a plus (like with Porcello), but it shouldn't when it's a minus? Look, I'm fine with blaming the manager for not moving him to 3B, but the fact is, he played SS, when maybe he shouldn't have been playing that position. Pride, glory, reputation, whatever the reason, when he played, and he played often, he sucked on D the last 10-11 years of his career. It reminds me of Cal Ripken being played too much just to get the record- damn what's best for the team. Ripken was a beast and a big plus to his team, but playing everyday hurt the team. Jeter's D hurt the team, but his offense and leadership more than made up for it. He belongs in the HOF- no doubt, but not for his defense.

You are clueless on how UZR/150 works, so no wonder you don't respect it.

No. He was the worst or maybe 3rd worst for a decade. He was not the worst in his first 2-3 years. It's not just about UZR/150. DRS has him even worse. MY observations of the 17-18 games we played them every year backed up the data. The guy was a statue. He sucked. Plenty of baseball people regard UZR/150 and DRS with respect- flawed or not. You are basing your opinion on what Flg%? LMAO! On GG votes? OMG! Yes, the final straw for me was that because he played so much his poor defense made his total defensive output dead worst in MLB for that decade (his last 10 years in MLB). You can laugh all you want about my position, but I've seen nothing to support your point, except GG votes- the same voters who voted a DH the GG at 1B one year. Let's go by dWAR (fangraphs) from 2004-2014 (30 SSs with 3500+ PAs in that period): 25. Jeter 26. HRam 27. A Cabrera 28. F Lopez 29. Y Betancourt 30. M Young You probably don't respect WAR either, so what's the use? dWAR: 5th worst UZR/150: 3rd worst UZR: worst by far DRS: worst (the same as the next two worst combined!!!!) No evidence? Sketchy evidence? PLEASE! They guy sucked on D. It's possible to be great on O, great in the clubhouse, suck on D and be a legitimate HOF'er. Jeter is that guy. Period. His range was one to two step to both sides- maybe three to four on a slow grounder. Whoop-dee-freakin-doo! He made all those plays hit right to him. I saved my best argument for last. jacko has never said a bad word about any Yankee star, so when he says this- read between the lines- even he knows he sucked on D: All in all, he probably should have been the 3b when we got Arod, but he was too proud for that. I watched at least 70% of the games he played in his career, and I am aware of the DRS and UZR deficiencies. He wasn't a good defender, but he wasn't the butcher early on that he became later, especially after the ankle injury... (And, I agreed, he wasn't "the butcher" early in his career.)

Replacing the work horse Porcello with an injury-prone SP'er is not my idea of a smart move. If we do look to sign a 5th starter (which goes totally against my philosophy, but this could be a rebuild year), I'd go for a low risk-high reward pitcher like If we can afford... Julio Teheran (222 GS'd since 2013- 4th in MLB) Tanner Roark (30 GS'd in 5 of last 6 seasons) (Both are projected to make $18M/2 by MLBTR.) Wade Miley ($16M/2 by MLBTR) My pick as an affordable choice? Josh Lindblom (MLBTR writes: $8M/2 Lindblom has a 2.68 ERA and a 346-to-67 K/BB ratio in 363 1/3 innings. The righty was carrying a sub-2.00 ERA for much of the 2019 season in the hitter-friendly KBO, and while win-loss record doesn’t mean much in 2019, his 35-7 mark over the past two seasons speaks to the success he’s found. Were Lindblom younger, he may well be ranked higher on the list. He’ll turn 33 next June... His fastball stands out in terms of spin rate, but its velocity isn’t particularly eye-catching (90-92 mph). Maybe... Ivan Nova ($6M/1) 120 starts in the last 4 years. 5% BB rate is third best in MLB, although his K rate is 3rd worst. Probably not worth the risk: Gio Gonzalez