moonslav59

Every baseball organization has bad times. Most struggle with them and try to spin the perception in their favor. High media sports attention areas, like Boston, make it much more difficult. People had to know WHY Tito was let go, who was to blame for this signing or that trade. If they kept quite, they'd be criticized for that, too- and have been. Sure, some things have gone wrong. Sure, mistakes were made. Sure, it's okay to talk about them and be critical, but to me, some context is needed. This organization cares about winning AND does something about it. Since Henry took over, we have been one of, if not the top spending teams every year- even the "down" ones. When change is needed, change is made. Sure, that looks like loyalty be damned, and maybe to some extent it is, but it's worked every time we've changed GMs. Henry has brought us 4 rings and many good to great seasons in between. Even the last place teams had hope in the springs of those seasons. Even 2020 does not look totally lost. There's a lot of good things to look forward to, and our extended future looks brighter due to the latest big change. I'm not going to pretend everything has gone the way I'd like it to go, but big picture? This is the best 2 decades of Sox baseball I have ever seen, and it ain't even close! Thanks, Henry. Thanks, Theo, Ben, DD and Bloom. Thanks Tito and Cora and others. Thanks Papi and Manny and Pedro and Schill and Beckett and VTek and Lester and Betts and...

Spring baseball is beginning, and our 2020 roster might be pretty much set. I like the Pillar signing and feel the Betts/Price trade was essential and likely the best we could do, under the circumstances. All that has been debated and argued over for days, and will likely be debated for months and years to come. Here's a look at how I see the 26 man roster shaping up, as well as who might be contributing something meaningful in 2020. C- Vazquez & Plawecki (Centeno & Bandy) 1B- Moreland (Chavis, Dalbec & Ockimey) 2B- Peraza & Chavis (Lin, Arauz, Marco & Chatham) 3B- Devers & Arauz (Dalbec, Chavis & Marco) SS- Bogaerts & Lin (Arauz, Marco & Chatham) LF- Benintendi (Pillar, Puello & JD) CF- Bradley & Puello (Pillar & Castillo/Duran) RF- Verdugo & Pillar (Puello, JD & Castillo/Duran) SP- Sale, Rodriguez, Eovaldi, Perez (Velazquez, Weber, Johnson, Houck, Hart, McGrath, Mata, Ward, Reyes) RP- Workman, Barnes, Taylor, Walden, Hernandez, Brasier, Hembree, Brice (Brewer, Osich, Mazza, Shawaryn, Springs, Hall, Poyner, Feltman) To me, the weakest slots are: SP5 RP 2B RP 1B SP6 OF

LOL. Your posts are always top notch, even if I disagree, at times.

I haven't given the 2020 team much of a chance, even before the Betts & Price trade, but I'm going to enjoy watching every game. We still have a very good offense, some decent pitchers and a lot of young players to follow.

I thought DD went overboard, but it's all good with the shiny ring, but since you asked, I'll take these deals back... Dubon & Shaw for Thornburg Ty Buttrey for Kinsler Espinoza for Pomeranz Plus,many of us were not about keeping all of these prospects. We were about packaging many of them differently for better returns, and the sheer volume of prospects traded away. Would we still have a ring without Kimbrel or Sale? We'll never know. Without Pom, Thornburg and Kinsler? Probably yes?

I don't question any of the GM moves all that much. At each point a change was made, a different direction seemed like a valid option. Of all the changes made, I like the DD to Bloom change the most. Of course, the jury is out, but I'm talking about "at the time of the change." Most liked (in order): 1. DD to Bloom 2. Theo to Ben 3. Ben to DD.

To me, the plan looks like we may stay semi-competitive in 2020, get better in 2021 (maybe get lucky) but be back in the top 3-5 contenders by 2022 and beyond. I'm assuming we go back to spending near or above the tax line again. Verdugo, Downs and/or Wong may all be a part of those teams. The $16M opened up for the next 3 years should help. Resigning Betts or opening up his contract money for other signings should help, too. Will it be enough to replace Betts? Only time will tell, and I'm not talking 86 years or even 8.6 years.

Well, he could bomb on the $16M x 3, but the prospects could all do well and make the deal a good one. It's good to see you have a sliver of hope things might work out.

Great posts Sox 75.

bingo! ..

I remember people being upset with Beckett being part of the AGon trade. The Crawford dump was hailed by all, but Beckett was borderline. He was owed $17M x 3 from 2012 to 2014. While that's not Price money, it was a lot in 2021. I'm not saying Price will duplicate what Josh did after the trade, but Beckett, who was 32 when traded, went on to go 8-14 3.39 (106 ERA+) in just 202 IP in 2.3 seasons with LA. He retired after 2014. Many of us who were okay with the Price signing and those who loved the signing knew the last 3 years might be sketchy. I realize we are still paying Price $16M x 3 to pitch elsewhere. That sucks, but we got out of those last 3 years and gained $16M x 3 to spend. (Also, the reset saves millions.)

Yes, but on top of that, we have $16M to spend (and to replace) Price and some hope we'll get something from 2 or 3 from Verdugo, Downs or Wong.

The problem was dumping Price. Betts is not a salary dump, although many teams cannot afford him at $27M. Waiting to July to dump Price would have been a huge risk, and any dump would be pro-rated on the budget. Say we get someone to pay half his salary on July 31st. Half is actually one-third of half, because that's all that's left of the season. We'd save $5.3M on the lux tax for 2020 by trading half of Price's deal then. Could we trade Price alone, this winter, and get $16M relief? I say, no, but several here think he's worth $16M x 3 or more. Even so, that alone would not be enough to reset, and we'd have done nothing to help the farm.

No,it wasn't, or it was meant to temper expectations. Nobody is happy about Verdugo's health concerns, and I'm hoping the Sox medical staff knew what they were doing. (I'm not sure what I base that hope on with their record.)

Let's not get political. I'd still rather have Verdugo with no Downs or Wong or any Price salary relief than a comp pick after the 2nd or 4th rounds. Sure, Verdugo could flop and that comp pick could be a great one, but the odds are greater Verdugo adds more value. I'm glad we didn't trade for Myers or wait to the deadline- like we're still waiting for Trump's healthcare plan that will "greatly improve coverage, lower drug prices, protect existing conditions, cost less and let us all choose any doctor we want." (Ooops, did I say that out loud?)

Henry said many things- some sounding polar opposite of each other. If some chose to believe what they wanted to believe and disregard the rest, then I can see why they are crying, now.

So,it's not a fact Verdugo is immoral?

Are you saying you are not stating your opinions as irrefutable facts? I guess we all come across like that, at times, maybe without meaning to. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

They needed to reset, IMO. Maybe the choice was reset, now or after 2020, and if that was the case, it seems now was the better choice, again, IMO. (Improve for 3+ years vs just one year-2020- not that 2020 would be an improvement over 2019 on paper- it clearly would not be unless we spent over the $40M line again.) They likely searched for ways to reset without trading Betts, and either there was no way or the choices were so horrible, trading Betts became the only viable option. If season ticket holders really felt like there was no way Betts was being traded based on a few statements that were contrary to other statements, and you want to call it a "defrauding," I won't argue with that point. I, for one, knew all along a reset was highly probable and that trading Price alone was not going to get us there. Trading Price and not giving JBJ a contract might have, but we'd have not a penny to spend on 2020 and still reset. No Perex, no Peraza and no Pillar. You think we'd win inn 2020 with Betts and no other holes filled? Sure, we'd have a better chance than now, but it's not idiotic to do what Bloom did. He greatly improved the outlook for 2021, 2022 and beyond- both financially and physically. Even if every player we got back for Betts flops, the $16M we saved on Price should make us better in 2021 & 2022. I know the odds are very long we bring back Betts, but they are better now than had we kept him and not reset. If we miss out on Betts this coming winter, my hope is we spend well and get back to the top much sooner than had we waited. It's a valid position to hold, but no position can be proven as right as of now.

That's far, far, far from all you have stated as fact.

No clue? He was given a vastly over budget roster by DD- someone several people are going out of their way to defend. It was a mandate to reset, IMO. If some want to believe it was just a priority, fine. Bloom's hands were tied by budget constraints and the unknown of being able to trade Betts and dump Price's deal. Had that deal been done in December, maybe we'd see a different roster, now, but it's hard to blame Bloom for where we are, right now. Should he have rushed a Betts-Price deal? I know some wish we never made the deal, but I can't see any better way to reset the tax.

Getting out from under half of Price's remaining 3 years of his contract was a very important aspect of the trade. It should greatly affect our team for 3 years and maybe more. Bloom is known to work wonders with a winter spending budget of $16M or less, and a lot will depend on what he does with those savings, when we measure how well this deal works out. It's not really part of the deal, but ultimately, it works out that way. When we dumped Crawford, and to some extent Beckett, by including AGon in the mega deal with the Dodgers, the effect was we were able to sign Vic, Napoli & Dempster. We won a ring, largely based on those signings, but had we not, we'd likely be viewing that trade differently by now. Waiting for the deadline to try and trade Betts and Price could certainly have worked out better, but it would have been a wild gamble. I seriously doubt we'd be able to reset the tax, something some here still don't this was a high need thing to do. It obviously was a mandate not a priority all along. If Price got hurt or struggle to start 2020, we'd be screwed. For all we know, we might have been forced to trade Bogey & Betts to reset at the deadline (saving us just $16M on the tax line). The other part of the trade was the return. I'm fine with haggling over what we got and damaged goods and all, but it's not like we had multiple good or better offers on the table. The Padre offer looked like a joke. As great as Betts is and will be, we traded one year of control- ONE YEAR! We have set ourselves up to resign him after 2020- something we never would be able to do had we not reset. If we end up missing out on Betts, we'll still be set up to make a substantial rebuild through signings and trades that we could and would not have been able to do without resetting. We got... 5 years of Verdugo (2 pre arb years): Even if he misses a year with a bad back, we still can get a lot of value from this guy. He's not a bust, IMO. All this crap about his character is conjecture, at this point. He may disappoint, but I feel, at worst, he gives us 2-3 WAR for 4-5 years: at best he gives us 4-6 WAR. 5 years of Downs: This guy could turn into a major gain. I realize it's speculation, but he's our #1 or 2 prospect according to every ranking service. 5 years of Wong: This guy has a lot of potential on offense but lacks a clear position. At worst, he may replace JD at DH someday while being a 3rd string catcher/utility depth option. I seriously doubt we could have got a better package than this one. To say waiting would have been better is pure speculation. Sure, maybe we could have, but the money part of the equation looks very sketchy by July. We NEEDED to RESET! I know that's just an opinion, but I sincerely think it was vital. I also think Henry and Bloom felt the same way. Our extended future is much better off now, than before the trade. Our chances in 2020 took a big hit. I'm not denying that, and for those who felt we had a very good chance to win in 2020, I understand your frustration or anger, but let's give this deal some time. It's not the type of deal anyone can definitively judge 2 weeks after being made. If Price bounces back and Verdugo flops, it may look bad. If Price sucks for 3 years, Verdugo and others do well, and we use the money saved to choose wisely, we may view this deal like the last Dodger dump trade- a huge success.

The difference: I admit it's an opinion- my opinion (at the time). You act like everything you believe is fact.

True. I'm projecting us as being sellers at the deadline, but it's not a sure thing. We still have a formidable offense and some pitchers who can bounce back. Acquiring players that could possibly be traded at the deadline is certainly a good part of the plan, but the plan is to try to get us to be competitive, this year, without messing up 2021 and beyond.

Massive assumptions.