moonslav59

It was not the same team- by a lot.

We made a big step in the right direction. Of course those trying to sell tickets will spin and spin. Henry will continue to spend to win. We will get back on top, at some point.

I guess it was, but I really think the reset was a mandate- not a priority. If it was a true option, the reset in 2021 and having Betts for 2020 would have really left us much worse off looking at 2021 and beyond than we do right now looking at 2020 and beyond. One can argue trying to win in 2020 would have been worth a worse extended future outlook, but I don't get the sense that some feel we're not much better off looking at 2021 and beyond than we would have been without the big trade. Try trading Price, alone, after 2020. He'd be a year older and worse. Try finding a Verdugo, Downs and Wong in our system or through the draft.

You can't expect a GM to win rings with a spending budget of $60-80M. He did a great job with what he was given. To say he was "hardly successful is a gross understatement. One could argue he did better than anyone in MLB within the context of the budgets and situations handed to him. Sure, he still needs to prove himself, here. Dan D. had the same reputation coming to us from Montreal, and he never won a ring, but he did set Theo up nicely. I'm having a hard time understanding all the gloom and doom on Henry on Bloom. I get the sadness of losing Betts, and maybe some here never had to endure decades of frustration following the Sox of old, but I'm damn proud of this team and the owners and managers. We've hit a bump in the road. We all knew it was coming, or should have, and now it's time to look forward to a swift rebuild and return to the top. The quicker the better, for us fans, but we need to be more thoughtful about the long term, so maybe this doesn't happen so often.

We had to do something, and my guess is none of them would have made 2020 look any better, unless we just punted to 2021 making that much worse than we look now.

I'm not sure why you feel it's devastating to lose Betts, now, but it won't be next winter. I get the part about the trade being our choice and him walking being more his choice, but I have to think we are way better off looking at 2021 and beyond due to this trade. The reset alone, in 2020 instead of 2021 greatly improves the chances we are better in 2021. The added $16M from trading Price should greatly help us in 2021 and 2022. Verdugo is no slouch. The kid has a lot of upside potential and is pretty good even if he just gives what he did in 2019 over the rest of his time here. Downs is a top 2 prospect. Wong is top 12 or 15. Sure, there's a chance none of this helps, bu to me our extended future looks much brighter due to the trade. We'd be looking at a reset in 2021, no Betts, no money to spend to replace him, the last 2 years of an aging Price's contract of $32M a year, and a much weaker farm than we have now.

Maybe not a lot of people, and if you read about how many here seem to feel like Betts will decline swiftly after age 31-32, one can make the comp. Clemens was a beast with Boston, despite his "off years" prior to his leaving. He most certainly belongs on the list with Lester, Betts, Lynn and Fisk. Put him last on the list, if you wish, but he belongs on the list, IMO.

The trade hurts bad, but it's what was best for the long term outlook of the team. Maybe it was a "desperate move," at a time when we didn't have to be desperate, but had we not traded him, we'd have been even more "desperate" after 2020.

Yes, but a couple had 4+ very good seasons afterwards. I get that they don't fit the group listed, but Clemens does.

I'm sad he's gone. He always gave it his all, and seemed like a great clubhouse guy, too.

Here's a minor league signing we've been waiting for... https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020/02/red-sox-nearing-deal-with-jonathan-lucroy.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

True. I think Burleson might not belong on the list, but he wasn't old. Is there anyone you'd put behind Lester? Certainly, Roger Clemens. (I'm not counting prospects traded that became great, either- like Bagwell or Schill or even Cecil Cooper.) Mo Vaughn? George Scott (1st time)? Reggie Smith? Paplebon? Ellsbury? Burks? Beckett? Bill Lee? Hurst? Tiant? Also, while Boggs was 35 when he left Boston, he did go on tho hit .803 in 2600 PAs with NYY. Damon was 31 and hit .821 in NY (4 yrs) in over 2500 PAs. Burleson was 29, and played very little after the trade, but he was prime when he left. (True, he was no Betts or Fisk.)

I wish we kept Ben, but I'm not going all psycho analytical on Henry. The guy is a hero. I'm not getting all the hatred being spewed towards him. Even the 2020 team will be a top 4 or 5 spending team.

I hardly ever bring it up, anymore. I'm fine with never talking about it again. We all know each other's positions. I guess, once many of the prospects we traded away show what they have, it may be worth revisiting. I'm just glad we are refocusing on farm-building. We will need it.

Well, we do have six half 2Bmen... Peraza (paid $2.9M) Chavis Lin Arauz Chatham Marco (maybe Dalbec?)

Betts Lynn Fisk Lester Boggs Nomar Manny Burleson Lackey Damon Pedro

It sure beats a comp pick. We'll never know about winning in 2020 had we kept Betts, so that argument can never be settled. I see Verdugo as better than "run of the mill". Downs has real talent and is immediately our 1 or 2 best prospect. Wong is a long shot but could be a nice DH/utility guy. The $16M saved on Price x 3 years could be huge, especially if Bloom works his budget magic.

Many of us wanted and expected many prospects to be traded- not nearly all of them. It wasn't an all or nothing choice. It was also about who we traded for as much as who we traded away. It was also about the quantity of trades. Of course the farm is to be sued as the GM wishes, but that does not mean all decisions are beyond reproach. As for the 3 last place finishes: going into each of those seasons, we had a lot to be optimistic about. We can probably blame one last place on Bobby V. We also had a ring between all those bad seasons, so it was not like all was lost, and we had some long extended streak of futility. DD was hired the get us a rings, and he did. That doesn't mean all discussion must and will end concerning his possibility of going overboard. Even if we all agree, which will never happen here, that every trade was needed to win that ring in 2018, it still does not mean we have deny the effects of all those trades on our future. Sadly, the future came upon us quicker than many of us expected or hoped for, but I guess what bugs me a little, is how some refused to believe this day would ever come.

I thought it was a very well thought out statement. Yes, it was calculation and was designed to calm the masses by explaining what's going on, but I thought it all made sense.

DD traded these top prospects (soxprospects.com highest ranking): 1 Y Moncada 3 A Espinoza 3 M Margot 5 D Marrero 6 J Guerra 5 M Kopech 5 J Beeks 7 L Basabe 9 M Dubon 11 S Anderson 13 L Allen 16 B Taylor 17 T Buttrey 17 W Jerez 18 L Basabe 20 C Asuaje 20 S Nogosek

Not surprising. Especially, when you consider he'll be a Sox again next year.

Agreed, and if you take each major DD trade made, here's what I thought of them at the time of the deal: Kimbrel: hated it due to too many prospects given and CK not being a financial bargain Pomeranz: disliked the trade not Pom. Thought a bigger package with maybe some from the CK trade could have gotten us better. Sale: loved it and still do. Thornburg: liked it Nunez, Kinsler, Eovaldi & Reed: liked them. We likely could have won without Pom, Thornburg, Kinsler and Reed, but taking back just those trades (in hindsight) would not greatly improve our farm or future outlook all that much. Winning without Kimbrel and or Sale is another issue.

I changed Devers to Moncada. I'm still very happy we traded for Sale and resigned him. I am very confident he will return to form. That being said, trading Moncada and Kopech were part of decimating the farm. I think it was a worthy part of the whole decimation, but they were part of it. When Sale returns to form, we should not trade him. He is a big part of the rebuild plan. He's part of the core we build around- Sale, Bogey & Devers. We all await the glorious return of... Chris Freakin' Sale!

I'm not, and maybe just saying, "He lost the ball club" would have been enough to keep the media and fans happy. Somehow, I think it wouldn't have been enough. I'm not disagreeing with much of what you have been critical of. There's been more than just Tito leaks. I'd like to see none or less of that, but to me it pales when compared to the overall excellence Henry has brought to this organization.

Every baseball organization has bad times. Most struggle with them and try to spin the perception in their favor. High media sports attention areas, like Boston, make it much more difficult. People had to know WHY Tito was let go, who was to blame for this signing or that trade. If they kept quite, they'd be criticized for that, too- and have been. Sure, some things have gone wrong. Sure, mistakes were made. Sure, it's okay to talk about them and be critical, but to me, some context is needed. This organization cares about winning AND does something about it. Since Henry took over, we have been one of, if not the top spending teams every year- even the "down" ones. When change is needed, change is made. Sure, that looks like loyalty be damned, and maybe to some extent it is, but it's worked every time we've changed GMs. Henry has brought us 4 rings and many good to great seasons in between. Even the last place teams had hope in the springs of those seasons. Even 2020 does not look totally lost. There's a lot of good things to look forward to, and our extended future looks brighter due to the latest big change. I'm not going to pretend everything has gone the way I'd like it to go, but big picture? This is the best 2 decades of Sox baseball I have ever seen, and it ain't even close! Thanks, Henry. Thanks, Theo, Ben, DD and Bloom. Thanks Tito and Cora and others. Thanks Papi and Manny and Pedro and Schill and Beckett and VTek and Lester and Betts and...