moonslav59

Plus, we've been "overhauling" a team that under performed in 2019, which had a few players on the wrong side of 30, one of which was making over $30M a year. The 2020 team was the worst in 2 decades. Injuries can explain some of that, but to think we didn't need an overhaul is being short-sighted. People complained about losing Price, and he ended up opting out of 2020 and does not really have high expectations going forward. We kept JD, and he fell off a cliff- people bitched, even when we keep the stars. We let Porcello, Kimbrel, Kelly and a few others go. Is anyone trying to claim we should have kept them, specifically? Beni and JBJ were not players we NEEDED to keep. Betts is the one guy that does not fit the narrative, but people are acting like we let 10 Mookie's go.

The loss of Betts is really the only loss that does not fit in the Sox narrative over the last 20 years. It's a huge loss, but I'm not sure it is the sign of a massive change in spending philosophy or team building strategy.

Maybe? Probably? It's hard to judge mid season, "Oh, the Rooster is not getting on baselike last year and will continue not to do so." We shoulda never canned Carbo... among others.

Look at the OF'ers Dave had to choose from: 2018-2020 Innings in Dodger OF: 1926 Bellinger 1859 Pederson 1052 C Tavlor 987 Pollock 965 Puig 923 Verdugo 849 EHern 441 Betts You don't see Cordero and Renfroe as belonging in that group?

The choice is really Cordero and Renroe vs off-handed pitchers vs Arroyo/Chavis/Gonzalez. A Renfroe-Cordero platoon is much better than each playing everyday. Here are the career splits: vs RHP .786 Cordero (243 PAs) .740 Chavis (168 PAs) .732 Gonzalez .717 Renfroe .678 Arroyo (176 PAs) .673 EHern vs LHPs .912 Renfroe .820 EHern .724 Gonzalez .699 Chavis .597 Arroyo (129 PAs) .573 Cordero (72 PAs) There are better offensive options based on some small sample sizes, but when you factor in defense, I'm not so sure keeping EHern at 2B is the best idea. Okay, let's say Chavis starts in AAA, and we discount Marwin's trashcan-banging season and just compare Arroy0 (.678) to Renfroe (.717) vs RHPs. Is Renfroe really that much better, off handed, as to make up the difference on defense at 3-4 positions? (worse at 2B, RF, CF and maybe LF) Versus LHPs, Renfroe and EHern are playing- no doubt. So, who is the next best? Fine, throw out Chavis and Marwin, again, and Arroyo still looks better than Cordero on offense, small sample sizes and all.

The bigger purge was during 2014, and it continued afterwards. The ring team from 2018 was very different from 2015 and almost totally different from 2013. The Sox have seen some massive overhauls and recycling of stars.

2004 and 2007 Sox Top Players 2004 by PAs Damon Ortiz Manny Bellhorn Millar VTek Mueller Kapler Reese/OCab 2007 Ortiz Lowell Lugo Youk Crisp Pedey Manny JD Drew VTek 2010 PAs Scutaro Beltre Ortiz JD Drew VMart Youk BHall DMac Pedey/Lowell/Lowrie 2013 PAs Pedey Ellsbury Ortiz Napoli Nava Vic SDrew Salty Middy Gomes/Carp/Iggy 2016PAs Betts Bogey Pedey JBJ Ortiz HRam Shaw Holt/Young Leon/Vaz 2018 PA (2 years from 2016) Beni JD Betts Bogey JBJ Nunez Devers Moreland Holt Leon/Vaz/Swihart 2020 PAs Devers JD Bogey Verdugo JBJ Vaz/Plawecki Chavis/Dalbec Pillar 2004 IP Schill Pedro Wake Lowe Arroyo Foulke Timlin Enbree Mendoza Williamson/Leskanic/DiNardo 2007 IP Dice-K Beckett Wake Schill Tavarez Okajima Lester Papelbon Timlin Snyder 2010 IP Lackey Lester Buch Dice-K Wake Beckett Bard Papelbon Atchison Okajima/Delcarme/RRamirez 2013 IP Lester Lackey Dempster Doubront Buch Uehara Tazawa Peavy Breslow Workman/Aceves/Miller/Webster 2016 IP Price Porcello Wright Buch ERod Pom Barnes Ross Kimbrel Hembree 2018 IP (2 yrs from 2016) Porcello Price Sale ERod Johnson Velazquez Pom Kelly Kimbrel Barnes/Hembree/Workman Eovaldi/Wright 2020 IP (Sale & ERod out all year) Perez Eovaldi Weber Valdez Godley Brewer Brasier Barnes

We still have Bogey, Devers, JD, Vaz, Sale, ERod, Eovaldi and Barnes from the 2018 team. The 2013 team had just went through one of this team's biggest purges in the Dodger dump. An even bigger dump happened after 2013, when we purged the whole starting rotation and watched as every single starter was replaced by 2018. Yes, some guys retired- like Papi, but others were let go to free agency or traded. Most PAs in 2013: 724 Pedey 636 Ellsbury 600 Ortiz 578 Napoli 536 Nava 532 Vic 401 S Drew 470 Salty 374 Middy 366 Gomes 243 Carp 234 Iggy 116 Ross 107 JBJ By 2015, only 4 of those top 14 players remained. (The pitching saw an even bigger turnover.) Note,I'm counting JBJ as a member of the 2013 team. Some may discount his roleo n that team. By 2017, only Pedey and JBJ were left over. We won in 2018 with best record in Sox history.

Yes, but it's not like the racism ended in the late 60's. (See the Tommy Harper incidents.)

Who said anything about not liking JBJ? We have a budget. You can wish we don't. You can argue We should have signed JBJ over Richards.

I'm a huge Cora fan, but I'm baffled. I can see, if they had hopes in Cordero in CF, but putting EHern at 2B and Verdugo in CF, it weakens 3-4 positions. Maybe his plan is Duran in CF. BTW, I don't expect to agree with everything a manger does, and I trust he knows more than I do.

Almost every team put their best hitters 3 and 4. Many put a contact hitter up 2nd, even if they had a .290 OBP. The idea was to move the guy to second for your best hitters. Oh, and by the way, Burleson was not a bad lead off hitter. That .305 OBP in 1975 was below his career .328 mark and was .330 from 1976 until his trade after 1980. Here were the Sox lead off hitters from 1975>1979 OBP/PAs 1975 .399 Carbo 339 .347 Beniquez 226 .303 Cooper 111 .333 Miller 33 .429 Lynn 15 .455 Evans 11 1976 .403 Burleson 328 .294 Cooper 155 .344 Miller 127 .361 Dillard 36 1977 .338 Burleson 721 .464 Carbo 28 1978 .297 Burleson 597 .307 Remy 37 1979 .311 Burleson360 .350 Remy 337

The 2004, 2007, 2013 and 2018 teams had a lot of different stars on them. When you win, it's fun. Those great teams of the 70's were fun to watch, and we traded almost everyone away. We got worse and worse, and that sucked.

We're a top 3 spending team and will likely remain in that vicinity for years to come. We've let plenty a star go- mostly at the right time (Pedro, Damon, Manny, AGon, Beckett...). The Betts loss is different, but I don't think it's a sign of a major change in our strategy and championship building planning. Times have changed. It's not so easy to just restock the farm by outspending everyone. Maybe, we take longer to win the next one than anyone here would like to see, but we will be right at or near the top in the next year or two. This year will be a step in the right direction, and the draft should help build our farm to the point of respectability. (Maybe a summer sell off might help, too.)

Newsflash: enough jabronis stuck for many years, and it was damn exciting... and will be again, soon. Sure, we left a few on the floor: the Michael Bowdens, Lars Andersons, Ranaudos & Kalishes, Middlebrooks & Cecchinis and lots more, but the formula worked for years. Time to reboot and get the next one.

No, of course not, and that's why I prefaced my comment with a conditional phrase.

How about $360M/18?

It's early, but EHern has been a minus at 2B over his career. He's much better as a CF'er, and wow, imagine that- we need a CF'er.

This is not the first time we have re-set, and more big spending is on the horizon.

I bet you wish all MLB owners were like the Dodgers.

They did go "light" after 2019, but in the context of what they spend after 2018, and the fact that we have had a pattern of spend, re-set, spend re-set, I'm not seeing a major shift in philosophy. Like you said, we are still a top spending team, so any talk of Henry going cheap is just that: talk. We spent a bit this year but had to spread it out due to having so many holes to fill, at once. I'm confident we will spend very large, next winter.

Yes. The two year period before coming to the Sox was his best ever.

I thought he'd get $21M/3 minimum and felt that was too much, so I have not been thinking we should sign him. When T started hearing $12M/2, I began to think, hmm... maybe..., but at that point, signing him to even that amount would have put us over the tax line. Thank you, JBJ! You gave us great defense and decent offense for many years. I hate to see you go, and I'm happy you got the contract you wanted.

29 is about peak prime, so I'm not sure about the "budding" label, but he had some very fine numbers with the Rays. I remember being very concerned about his splits, where he was .697 v LHPs before the signing. I called him a "glorified platoon player" and predicted his contract "would drag us down for several years." Thank God, the Dodger took us off the hook for that. Despite my hating that signing, even I was shocked just how quickly things turned south. CC had an .810 OPS over his previous 6 seasons and .834 in his previous 2 seasons. He hit .694 in 2011 and was off to a .785 start in 2021 before being traded, and had missed the start of that season. What a great trade that Dodger dump was!

If Duran could pull a Fred Lynn (who actually did not come out of no where), our line-up would be golden: 1. Duran L (CF) 2. Bogey R (SS) 3. Verdufo L (RF) 4. Devers L (3B) 5. JD M ® (DH) 6. Cordero L /Renfro R (LF) 7. Dalbeck R (1B) 8. Vaz R © 9. EHern R (2B) Bench: Renfroe or Cordero, Arroyo, Gonzalez, Plawecki (Chavis in AAA or go with 12 pitchers.)