moonslav59

Personally, I don't think it is luck, but I won't be shocked if Pivetta does not do well, next time. I think many Sox fans felt we were pushing our luck with Richards as the closer/key set up man for a while, then Brasier & Robles. I think Cora know how to pick spots where certain pitchers are best suited to succeed.

I found this... https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2021/04/garrett-whitlock-boston-red-sox-rookie-sensation-has-pitched-just-once-in-past-nine-days-team-wants-him-stretched-out-for-two-three-inning-relief-outings.html

First, am I confusing you with someone else who wants us to bring Schwarber back? We also need a utility infielder. Last year, we paid $3M and struck out with Marwin. Can we get Iggy back at $3M? If Bloom has $40M to spend, next winter, he'll have about $20M left, if he signs those two. That's enough to sign 4-5 RP'ers without going huge on anyone, but that's still a bigger chunk spent on the pen than I would prefer. Look, I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, making Houck AND Whitlock starters makes no sense. Of course, it is a good plan with a lot of merit and supporting arguments. The Rays have done a pretty good job building a pen on a low budget, but Bloom did not exactly go low-balling on the pen. He traded for Ottavino ($8.9M). He extended Barnes. He signed Andriese and Sawamura. He moved a $10M and a $6M starter to the pen. One worked for a while. He added 31 pitchers who pitched in relief in the past 2 seasons to the 8 that were already here. That's 39 RP'er in about 220 games. There was a lot of flux, trial and error, and I'm still not sure who our closer is (Whitlock replacing Brasier and Robles?) I can understand your position, and no we should not have to spend large on the pen, but if we have to fill the top 3 slots, like it looks like we need to do, it should cost more than last winter, where he added a #2 (Ottavino) and #6 (Andriese) and a #7 (Sawamura). I'm not sure why keeping Houck or Whitlock in the pen, and signing a SP'er (or bring back ERod) is viewed as any worse a plan than yours. Am I missing something?

I think right when Perez was pitching like our ace (end of May?)

I certainly understand that position, especially since he played a big part in the 2018 playoffs. I won't argue we could have or should have won without him, because I'm pretty sure we needed him, but $150M is a boat load of cash, and if we are counting the playoffs, then 2016 counts, too. I will say, I was happy we dumped half his salary and was not sad to see him go, which of course are entirely different things.

Good stuff. I still wonder why he's getting more K's without a good change up. Can he correct it? Can he pitch well enough without the change up?

Most wins in 2021 107 SFG OUT 106 LAD 100 TBR OUT 95 MIL OUT 95 HOU 93 CWS OUT 92 NYY OUT 92 BOS 91 TOR Did not make playoffs 90 SEA Did not make playoffs 88 ATL

It really was an awful call. Sad way for a whole season to end.

Smoltz probably watched those games, but doesn't think Pivetta will repeat that feat the next time. He thinks Cora is pushing his luck. The way Pivetta has looked great then awful several times, this year, he might not be wrong.

Did anyone ever explain why management went out of their way to say they were stretching Whitlock out to be a starter and then almost immediately started pitching him 1 inning at a time?

Of course, but when an extension is signed, we normally look at what would that player have gotten on the market at the time of the signing. Yes, if the debate is about what would he have signed for after 2019, team physicals would have played a major role in the price set on his next contract. Just for argument's sake, do you think the contract was fair at the time it was signed, despite knowing an injury was possible?

There is something strange going on with Sale. He might have been lucky to only have a 4.08 ERA in his last 4 starts of the 2021 regular season, but he got K's in 21 of his last 38 outs, including all 7 outs in his start vs WASH. He K'd 2 out of 3 in that one start vs TBR, too.

They sure spent the money "saved," though.

He earned $150M/4? He certainly was a big factor in the 2018 season, and I've said I would not say it was a bad signing due to that, but it's different saying he earned his contract, IMO.

I hear you. Houck is the only one of the two to go 5-6 innings in MLB. Whitlock has excelled as a RP'er going 1-2 IP.

Umm, our pen was carried by Whitlock, and at times Houck. Ottavino and Barnes also did well out of the gate. Ottavino was costly. If we move both Houck and Whitlock to the rotation, we will need major additions to the pen. We don't have the luxury to add 15 ho-hum pitchers like Robles and Sawamura, in hopes 6-9 stick. Our roster is deeper, now, than last year. Also, I'm not so sure why people are pointing at Sawamura as a success story. He was okay, but we aren't winning with 9 Sawamura's, next year. Please stop saying I think Bloom will have to spend high dollars on relief pitching. For one, I don't think that is what Bloom does, and secondly, he won't spend big on RP'er, even if he is given $40M and both Houck and Whitlock are moved to the rotation. He will likely spend a significant amount to fill a few slots (2-4, maybe) and then sign a bunch of minor league deals or deals that give a pitcher an option to opt out in May, if they are not on the 26 man roister. He will not spend a whole lot. We also need a utility IF'er and many here want Schwarber back. That won't leave much for high spending on the pen, anyway. While there might be dozens of Robles and Sawamura's, having to go through dozens and dozens, and I'm not exaggerating here, to find a few that stick can be very costly, in terms of early and mid season losses. With all the rag-tag moves Bloom had to make this year, which included moving a $10M starter (Richards) and $6M starter (Perez) to the pen, one could argue, he spent a lot on the pen, this year. (Almost $9M for Ottavino and the extension for Barnes, too) I'm a hug fan of Bloom, as everyone knows, but he is not some savant on finding quality but low cost pen arms at a better rate than anyone else, as far as I know. Here is a list of the pitchers used in the pen since the start of 2020: Bloom Acquisitions: Whitlock Ottavino Andriese Sawamura Valdez Robles Rios Davis Feliz Bazardo Gonsalvez Brennan Peacock Schreiber Espinal Ort (Richards & Perez from rotation) Weber Springs Brice Covey Osich Stock Mazza Hall Tapia Godley Triggs Leyer Workman (2nd time) Here before Bloom: DHern Barnes Hembree Taylor Workman Brasier Walden Brewer Bloom acquired 31 RP'er in the past 2 years. Maybe 3-4 have done well and another 3-4 okay. If Houck and Whitlock go to the rotation and Ottavino is not re-signed as a FA, we are losing our top 2 RP'er by IP and look to Barnes as the key for 2022. OPS Against in 2021 out of the pen (listed by most PAs against): RED= Gone from Pen, if 2 are moved to rotation .631 Whitlock (298 PA) TO ROTATION .728 Ottavino 276 .768 Sawamura 233 .641 Barnes 222 (Very bad in second half) .702 DHern 182 .700 Valdez 177 .659 Richards 113 .692 Robles 109 (FA after 2021) .615 Rios 98 (A hopeful for 2022) .864 Workman 93 .773 Davis 75 .795 Perez 64 .843 Brice 64 .742 Brasier 50 .493 Houck 42 TO Rotation FT Our 2022 Pen: R1. ______ R2. ______ R3. ______ R4. Barnes R5. Taylor R6. Brasier R7. DHern R8. Sawamura R9. Valdez/Davis/Rios/Feltman/Bazardo So, in light of the fact that we have about 3-5 roster openings after Rule 5, is the idea is to not sign a SP'er or utility man, but instead to sign 5 RP'ers at a low to moderate cost, in hopes they fill the 3 top slots?

I am pretty sure Whitlock starts. I'd like to see Houck as our closer, but I'd be fine, if he starts, too.

Great pull on Papelbon. I like the comp.

I know what they did. I was talking about what was expected on opening day 2013. Vic, Nap and Demp? Meh.

Yes, and since Price was a FA and signed for FA money, I think seeing how he did vs other FAs who signed is something of interest. Taking away the 2018 playoffs, do you think he earned his pay with he Sox? In a sense, we ended up paying him $150M/4.

He did start 25 games out of the gate in 2019, so I'm not sure anything would have shown up on a "physical." Certainly, 2018 put a scare into every GM, and a future injury was a big worry.

Price gave us innings most of the time, but I don't think he earned his keep. He helped in the '18 playoffs, so it's not something I complain about much. I was also for his signing, even though I knew it was an overpay, so being critical of him not reaching his contract value would be hypocritical. We may have been able to trade him elsewhere, but only by paying at least half his deal, IMO. I've never been a fan of the fangraph's value page, but usually because I think they overestimate the value a player gave to a team. Here is the value they gave Price: $35.2M 2016 $11.7 2017 $19.5M 2018 (not including playoffs) $18.7M 2019 _______________ n/a 2020 ($5.6M 2021 w LAD)

I do, too, and I don't want our GM spending big on the pen. (That's one reason I', leaning towards keeping both Houck and Whitlock in the pen, and one for sure.) If we do indeed have $30-40M to spend, this winter and don't spend much on the pen, I'm hoping we can sign a solid #2 or someone like Scherzer to a short term deal, instead of spending on offense.

I don't have any data, but it seems like signing a costly RP'er is almost always bad. Also, I'm not talking a $10M SP'er like Richards or Kluber. I'm talking $20-25M+. Yes, many of those type signings have not been all that good, either, but to me, it seems like they work out better.

I don't think people thought Vic, Napoli and Dempster were any better than AGon & Beckett.