moonslav59

The problem with trading Jansen, Martin & Turner for something decent, and then counting on replacing them, in kind, with equal money, next winter is that you don't trust Bloom to find equal value. The theory makes some sense. The execution of the plan is scary, but then again, all those 3 could suck, next year, too. Their ages are warning signs.

In theory, you do the best you can to improve the 2024 roster by trading players not expected to be back, next year (Paxton, Duvall, Kike & Kluber.) It's a little more complex when talking about trading players under team control, next year (Jansen, Martin, Turner w his dual option) or beyond (like Dalbec.) For them, you might get more return, especially, if you pay all of their 2023 salaries, and then in theory, you replace them with like signings, next winter- perhaps for younger and better players. Jansen+Martin+Turner is a lot of budget space opened up. You end up with a deeper foundation and farm and then use the budget space to backfill key slots. You build off Bello and maybe some others that show more hope over the second half of 2023. There is no guarantee it works or even helps, but it makes more sense than what we did in '22. ]

My guess is, boards like this one in Philly, last year and the other teams, cities and years you mentioned, were saying similar things as this.

As we have seen, the glow can wear off very quickly. (To many, there has not been a glow since the start of 2019.)

Part of the "giving the impression" is to say glowing things to the fans and to throw a bone, like the Story signing, every now and again.

Most of us knew it was not going to be easy getting back on track after 2019-2020. We lost a ton of talent and many others declined and or were hurt from 2020-2022. We watched as our farm produced just Houck from the Devers call up in 2017 to the maturing of Bello in 2023. This aspect alone should knock up aside the heads of all the fans scratching their heads and wondering "Why?" We saw a truly massive budget cut before 2020, that still had deadweight like Sale, Pedey and half-Price as our highest paid players. It took 2-3 years to return to any semblance of prior budgets, and we were still ranked as low on spending as any JH years on record. New MLB rules make it much more difficult for high spending teams to throw money at the draft and IFA market. It just can't be done, anymore. To me, where most of us stand, now, is based on what we expected 1, 2 and 3-4 years ago, and our understanding of just what we were facing. There was a sizable crowd, back then, that basically said, "We'll rebuild the farm and will fill the holes with free agents, as needed and won't miss a beat." They blamed 2019 on "Restgate" and felt it was not a sign of decline, since we had so many of the same players as 2018.

Well said. This is the same team that went on a couple nice stretches. They could/can do it again. I, for one, like watching Paxton starts, too. I go into Houck, Whitlock and Crawford starts with interest, too- just not a lot of confidence. I keep waiting for that to develop. I think the bats will warm up, again- I just hope for a longer stretch, this time.

Isn't that what it has been? It worked in 1 of 3 years.

That was the question. We know your answer. I doubt we win at least 6 of the next9 to get us over .500 at the break, but if we do, the next15 games before the deadline could change things. I still have very thin hopes.

I think he was given 4 major objectives: (In order of importance over first 4 years) 1. Build farm to a sustainable and respectable system. 2. Get the budget under control (lessen dead weight/long term deals) 3. Build a foundation of supporting cast players. 4. Try to give the impression we can or might compete every season (starting after 2020.) Going forward, the order may shift to 3, 4 and 1-2 tied for 3rd with #4 becoming actual competition and not just the perception of doing so.

What will it take for us to think we might want to be buyers- not sellers- at the deadline? 2 of 3 @ TOR 4 of 6 v TEX & OAK before the all star break and... 4 of 6 on road trip v CHC & OAK 3 of 5 v NYM (3) & NYM (2) 2 of 3 @ SFG

Rafaela hit his first AAA homer: Dalbec his 19th, as Woo swept 2. POR shut out NH. I Coffey went 6 IP, 3H, 0ER, 2BB, 4K Hickey homered. Kavadas went 1-3 w BB. GRE won 6-1 Blalock 6IP, 5H, 1ER, 0BB, 4K 2-5 Paulino w HR 2-5 Anthony 1-2 Lopez w 3BB

I really thought this would be Bloom's "legacy" or "make or break season," because I felt he'd have enough to spend and to put his stamp on the team. Only Sale is dragging the budget down as a non Bloom guy. I'm not sure JH is viewing this as make or break, especially if the idea is to go over the line, next year. If JH brought Bloom on board to build up the farm and foundation, then he must be fine with waiting longer for the results. (He did pull the plug on Ben's rebuild plan, so I still have some doubts.) I admire what Bloom did building up the pen. It looks like he's done a good job building up the farm, foundation, while bettering the long term budget outlook. I had hoped the rotation would be better, and the amount of resources spent on it went down from 2022. The win-loss records seem to be the big sticking point with many fans, and it's not rocket science to know why. I hate watching us lose over and over, too, and my opinion will change, if we suck, again, this year, but I'm not so sure JH will can him, if we suck by game 162.

"I got that backwards." Dipre, for sure.

The 3 wild cards do keep more teams in it, but even with one, just 3 AL teams would be over 6 games behind, right now. I think it’s 7 or 8 NL teams.

Every Sox fan I knew was aware that ownership would not go that extra mile to get it done. We all knew it was about pitching, and the Sox never went out and got one. The “near misses” were not the result of the owner going all in. Lonborg was no ownership brilliance. Tiant was not either. Clemens took no special ownership intrusions. The Pedro trade marked the seed change, and that was before JH, but it took the change of vision to bring Schilling, Beckett, Lackey, Sale and Price aboard. That just never happened, before.

I would not be at all surprised, if we had no rings had JH not been our owner. I guess one can call this praise, but to me, it’s just describing reality. The previous owners seemed content on just coming close and giving fans the perception that we were “close.” JH hired the right guys and spent what was needed to get us over the top, as well as rearing a few times. I’m happy he was and still is the owner. One can poo poo the 4 rings in 20 years all they want. I’m not so sure about the idea of rolling the dice on hopes a replacement ownership will come close to that.

Yes. I view that trade as a good one.

True, but 2 top 15 prospects for 2 months of Vaz…

Doing what we did last summer didn’t help the image, either. Getting next to nothing firBogey, Nate, Wacha, JD and Hill was the bigger failure. Look what we got for Vaz. We might be surprised at what we could get by paying down all these deals as we trade them. Note: I’m not supporting the fire Sale idea, right now, but I’m being pulled in that direction with every loss.

There are a lot of teams in the race, and several will not want add salary or might, if it’s not too much. Expanding the teams involved in the bidding should help on any returns.

Henry has shown he spends in cycles. This is becoming a long down cycle, but I still think he will spend big, again.

Agreed, but it's a fine line to walk, and keeping the fans is often about keeping the perception alive and well. He needs to be careful not to lose too many fans, There is no guarantee they will come back, once lost.

I totally agree, and just because many owners start cutting the budget or long term commitments before a sale, doesn't mean that is what Henry is doing. Besides, he just locked up Devers forevers.

If we pay most or all of Jansen and Martin's deals, they would both be worth more than Pivetta.