moonslav59

Maybe okay with some of the time table achievements but not the one that matters most to fans.

It's even worse than this. There were dozens of plays that should not or would not have been called errors in the past, but most other teams make. This team's D was beyond the worst of the worst I have ever seen. That's mostly on Bloom. I do think he left a better defensive team for the next guy than we had all year. Yoshi to DH. Story healthy. Rafaela in the fold. Duran in LF not CF. Urias & Reyes at 2B and back up 3B and SS. Hopefully, Casas, Wong and McGuire a year more experienced (and improved.)

No GM came close to doing what Sullivan did to that Sox team of the 70's.

I was just a teen in the 70's so that hit me harder than it should have, but man, I was excited and engaged in the team. We had a lot of talent to be excited about. After the purge of Fisk, Lynn, Burly and others, there were some fun teams, but not close to the 70's. Clemens and Boggs was about it for 20 years. I still watched just about every inning of every game I could, but the failures were way worse than now. Bloom's record is close to .500. Ben's was not as bad as some in the 80's and 90's. There is bad and there is awful.

Some grade on what your final product was and a .500 or average team is about a C+ to D+.

Agreed. John I Taylor got 2 rings in 3 years back in the 1910's, but JH is clearly the best.

That's fine. I happen to think his overall grade is between a C+ and D+, and a B- might be closer to my choice than a D, but I put a lot of weight on the foundation handed over and the speculative value of the farm. I would not give him a B-. Years from now, I may change my grade to B- or even a D, depending on hos his guys do.

4 years of IFA signings added Devers, which was great, but precious little else, except for trade pieces for DD, like Moncada and Espinoza.

Exactly, and he actually cut off DD's spending after the 2018 season, except for the Sale, Bogey and Nate extensions, which I feel JH felt had to be done, after letting Betts go. We did not bring bacl Kimbrell and Kelly or even try to replace them, in kind. There were also no significant prospect trades after the 2018 deadline moves. This all didn't start under Bloom, and it is my opinion that DD would not have stayed, if asked to trade Betts and Price and not replace their salaries and Porcello's.

I think the plan was 5, but they buckled and had to throw blame on someone. It will never be JH who accepts the blame. Sox Nation was not going to accept status quo. They barely accepted Bloom being given year 4.

'67 was a 7 gamer, too. IMO, the playoff and WS appearances were too far apart to be anything less than painful, but I did stay entertained. BTW, I was entertained this year and last. Many games were exciting and close. It sucks to lose, but I still enjoyed a lot about the 2023 team, especially the younger players and JT.

He'd probably say they put no limits on what Bloom could spend on pitching. My guess is the real answer is, they did not want to spend large and long on a pitcher, when they knew they were not going all in, yet. You don't sign David Price 3-5 years before you think the window opens. You sign him right at the time you think the window opens. Just my opinion. All the signings over 4 years were just fluff and deceptions. The longer ones, like Story and Yoshi were designed to overlap the upcoming window opening- I HOPE!

I have to think the ring in 2018 had something to do with JH's willingness to allow DD to go "all in," especially okaying the Price sand JD signings, plus lesser deals like Porcello, the Bogey extension and others.

No doubt, but I'd rather stay with my current "mean wife" than go back to my ex. LOL

Ok. it's all good. I still think building up the farm and foundation has to count for enough to move him off an "F." I think even a D or D- is a bit harsh, given the circumstances, but I'm fine with other having different opinions and priorities. C+ to D+ seems to be the range I find acceptable, but that's just me. I'd be more inclined to accept a B- than a D or D-.

It has worked, so it's hard for me to choose the unknown over a 4 time ring winner like JH & Co. Those first 30 years of being a Sox fan were "fun" but also painful.

I've said I am not going to predict he spends big, this winter. I've said that for 2-3 straight winters and been wrong. Even this past winter's large winter budget was a bit deceiving, since we lost guys like Bogey, JD, Nate, Wacha, Hill and Strahm, along with their salaries. While dropping in the team budget ranking might be partially due to more teams starting to spend big, and not resetting in 2023, we could have or should have finished higher than we are, now.

Let's go back to the glory days before JH! LMAO!

You said this on post #9354: ... i don't think he should get a higher grade due to better draft picks because they were so freakin' awful. Maybe you meant the "they" to refer to the team, but the correct literal meaning would be that the "they" was referring to the last noun, which was "draft picks." If you meant the team, then it's not comedy.

I'm still not so sure it's "unfortunate." 1. We don't know who might replace JH, and it could be much worse. 2. JH has gone up and down on spending, and if he goes back up, and like real soon, maybe he can get back into our good graces.

I get that, but this concept is not complex. It's also been explained in simple terms, over and over, and some choose to just ignore it. It's all reduced to "We lost under you: you suck." I also think there is an underlying "spoiled" aspect to it all. Despite the fact that 1-15 teams are spending and trying hard to win, if we can't win every year, someone has to be the fall guy. We deserve to win. When we don't, heads need to roll. A smaller part of it might be the avoidance of admitting they were wrong about the "impending cliff" debate of 5-6 years ago. (Yes, I said the naughty word.) If they damit Bloom was dealt a rotten hand, it's an admission of being wrong, before. This is not an excuse for Bloom not getting the team to better records in 2022 and 2023. I feel he should have. In some cases, I thought he did, but I turned out to be very wrong. I'm not trying to come off as holier than thou. I've been as wrong as anybody, if not more so.

Yes, but I doubt the talks included Price or half-Price. The decision was made before Bloom even walked in the door. Who we got for Betts had some Bloom influence to some or a major degree, although when only one team would take half-Price, even that is severely limited. Yet, Bloom is still attacked as the one who traded Betts with absolutely no context allowed.

To me, there are some major differences: 1) The foundation roster left to DD included many of the best players being Theo guys. 2) Many of the best prospects DD was handed by Ben were Theo prospects. 3) Many of the most highly regarded prospects Ben handed over to DD to trade have not amounted to squat. (It was DD that maximized their value by trading them that won us the ring and 3 first place finishes, not the fact that Ben gave DD a great farm.) Yes, a lot of the foundation Bloom is handing over to the next guy are DD guys (Devers & Sale), and graduated prospects like Bello, Casas, Houck, Crawford and Duran, but the roster turnover in Bloom's 4 years is much more far-reaching: Verdugo Whitlock Wong & McGuire Winckowski , Bernardino and Kelly Story & Yoshi Schreiber & Refsnyder Abreu, EValdez and Dham Urias & Reyes Jansen & martin Duvall, Paxton and JT (gone, soon) The 2024 rookies and top prospects is a healthy mix of both DD and Bloom kids: DD: Rafaela, Murphy, Walter, Wikelman, Perales, Mata, Dalbec, Bonaci, Castro, Paulino Bloom: Abreu, Anthony, Teel, Mayer, Bleis, Cespedes, Zanetello, Yorke, Joh Garcia, Drohan, Meidroth, Romero, Hickey, Gambrell, Jordan, Anderson, Monegro I think it's safe to say the Bloom group is stronger than the DD group, here. I'm not sure how the DD farm was stacked, as in Ben vs Theo top prospects, but I seem to recall the best ones were Theo's.

You wonder how JH can say something like that with a straight face. There is just no way the Betts trade was not an organizational decision. I'm leaning towards the idea that the choice was made without Bloom's opinion even mattering, except on who to trade him to and for what. I know this is an area of contention, and it quickly morphed into a Bloom Basher vs Bloom Apologist divide. To me, it's not even apologizing for Bloom, because there was nothing to apologize for. There has been so many actions and non actions to be critical and highly critical of Bloom over, but there is no need to invent areas that were out of his control (like the betts-Price trade), or largely out of his control (like slashing the budget). I have no problem with his being let go, but let's not join in on throwing him under the bus over things that were not his fault. If that makes me an "apologist," to some, so be it. I don't see it that way.