moonslav59

Ho won't be. Hell, we can throw in DHam... LOL. If it were up to me, I'd find a way to get Luzardo or Garrett for Mayer, and let them keep ECab.

BTV accepts... To LAD: Jansen & Yorke To MIA: Grove & Duran To BOS: ECabrera, AJ Puk & Berti

We do have a glut of LF'ers, and trading Duran does keep Cora from playing him in CF, but for Duran for a pitcher who walked 6 batter per 9, last year is not worth it, to me. For what it's worth, BTV has Duran at 34. 0 and Cabrera at 19.6. It does accept Duran + Mata for Cabrera + AJ Puk. (Having Puk might allow us to trade Jansen's salary and then sign a SP'er.) I'd give them Bernardino & Duran for the two. Trade Jansen to LAD for a nice prospect and sign Monty. Monty Gio Bello Pivetta Cabrera Crawford Houk Whitlock Puk Martin Wink Schreiber Campbell/Slaten/Mata

Some would have been better than Downs, but maybe not Dugo. Lucchesi and Quantrill both have had 2 decent seasons mixed in with some not-so-good ones. Campusano is still just 24 and had a nice season in '23.

83 IP + 14 in the PO's is astounding, in today's game, for a closer, byt the guy pitched more innings in a previous season and very close in a few others: 105 in '99 as a closer 88 + 2 in '00 (90) 81 in '01 78 in '02 87 + 5 in '03 (92) w OAK 83+14= 97 in 2004 Price had one really good season (2018), too and 2016 was pretty good, too. The injury in '17 hurt, but his first 3 year totals were very good: 481 IP 3.74 ERA (119 ERA+) 3.76 FIP 1.18 WHIP After 4 years, his FIP was even better at 3.74, but his ERA was 3.84 (118 ERA+) Lackey gave us 1.5 good seasons, including the 2013 ring year and he gave STL 1.5 good seasons, too. That's 3 out of 5 plus a not too bad first year w BOS. Last 3 years of contract: 605 IP (avg 200+) 3.35 ERA (119 ERA+ was the same as Price's for less than half the cost) 3.73 FIP He has a 3.85 FIP in 215 IP, year one (2010.)

Too many ifs and hopes for my liking. I can't stop thinking about DHern when Cabrera talk comes up. I know not all high K & BB are doomed to failure, but Cabrera has had a pretty long time to at least show improvement on the BB rate, and seems to be getting worse- not better. He'll be 26, soon, and that is still young enough to turn a corner, but is BB/9 and WHIP was worse than his career numbers in 2023. I'm not sure Bailey can do anything for him. If he can, then maybe he can just do it for Whit, Houck and others we have, right now. Career: ECab: 10.1 K/9 and 5.4 BB/9 (197 IP) DHern: 14.0 K/) and 7.7 BB/9 (85 IP) Note: Out of 3,200 pitchers with 80+ IP over the last 50 years, the K/9 leaders are: 15.0 Josh Hader 14.8 Edwin Diaz 14.8 A Chapman 14.2 D Betances 14.2 G Kimbrel 14.1 F Bautista 14.0 DHern Worst BB/9 rates: 8.3 J Briscoe 7.9 S Randolph 7.7 K Coffman 7.7 DHern That being said, I'd like to add ECab to our staff, but not at what you have suggested as the return (Duran.)

I agree that the vast majority see the FO for what it is: a sham. The Theo addition barely makes a dent in that impression. Unless the results change, or the perception of the team's strength- here and now i proves, it won't matter. I still think that 2021 team allowed the FO enough cover to keep many fans "fooled" for a year or two longer than had we sucked in '21, but the jig is up, now. The thing is, I'm not sure they realize 80-90% of the fanbase knows this. In some ways, I think if this is true, it's even worse than thinking they know but just don't care enough to change things, this year or next. They have to know, right?

The Padres were the only other team rumored to be in on the Betts trade. If I'm not mistaken, Myers was part of their talk or offer, but w/o Price. When people say, "We could have gotten more for Betts," I tend to think that is true, but I just don't think anyone was offering much better than what we got. It seems strange. I think we also see how poorly the Jeter Downs part of the trade worked out, and it's easy to think, "Yes, we could have done better," but at the time, he was pretty highly regarded.

It's not going to be Snell. We aren't trading top prospects for an ace. Cleninger is not going to excite enough fans to make a difference. It does seem like it's Monty or bust. I do think adding Monty gives us enough hope for 2024 to keep interest barely high enough. Bare minimum. Monty, Gio, Bello, Pivetta & Crawford Houk & Whit in the pen as long men Wink as the innings eater middle man Jansen & Martin as the 8/9th innings blood & guts guys. That leaves 3 pen slots for the rest to fight over, and there seems to be enough decent pitchers to fill those 3 slots, very well: Schreiber Bernardino Campbell Slatten (Rule 5 restrictions) Mata (out of options) Extended depth: Murphy & Walter Fitts & Gambrell Criswell & Weissert Kelly & Guerrero Long shots: Benitez, Olivares & Song

I think the Sox were trading Betts, no matter what. I think they felt adding Price was a way to save even more money, even if it lessened the return value or teams interested in making offers. Yes, they are that cheap.

I spend time in Maine, every summer. I have no interest in meeting up with trolls.

Agreed. JH can save some money by trimming some of the head honchos.

I totally agree. The Theo addition is not going to placate any fans, if we lose. It might help raise some hopes, right now, for some, but if nothing more is added to the roster, this winter, most fans will not be any more joyful.

I get that, but Price, Lackey and Foulke were all signed for multiple years to be just what you want the team to have- year-to-year, recognizable players. The problem was, none of them stayed healthy. None of them came close to giving us consistent production. All of them ate up a chunk of budget space that limited filling other need areas. All contributed to the ups and downs many fans abhor. (We still did okay with Foulke on the '05 and '06 teams, but won just 86 games in '06.)

I defer to your knowledge of pen pieces, and I totally agree on the great need to add one of those SP'ers. Pushing Houck or Crawford to the pen gives it an enormous boost. Not just with the skills they would bring, but more out of the fact that either could pitch 70-100 IP in relief, which might be 15-20% of all the IP needed by the pen in 2024. It would take a big strain of the rest of the pen arms and lessen the deep dives into the farm to find meaningful innings eaters in the pen. Win-win-win-win. (4 wins with one SP signing.)

I don't like that idea, but it is better than nothing. Maybe he thinks he has "backfilled" the pen, already: Campbell Slaten Criswell Fitts (will be a SP'er to begin 2024 in AAA) Weissert The return of Frank German & Noah Song Maybe he thinks better health and full seasons from these returnees will help fill some gaps: Schreiber Bernardino Mata Murphy, Walter... I've never been a fan of quantity over quality for the pitching staff and depth chart, but I do think we look okay in the 6-15 slots (and beyond #15)of the pen. The 1-5 slots can look pretty good, the more tweeners we have in the pen, instead of the rotation, and adding another top 5 RP'ers would help, but I'd still rather add an innings eater SP'er that would allow us to lessen the depth we have to go to in the pen. Last year, we used 33 pitchers, including Reyes in a couple games. We only had 2 pitchers with over 130 IP. That really kills a pen. We had over 655 IP from our pen, which does not count the "opener" IP or "pen game" starter. We used 27 pitchers in the pen, not counting Reyes. We need to try (or hope) we can- go through 2024 using just 15-17 pitchers from the pen. Hopefully, we won't need to demote any SP'ers to the pen, like we did with Pivetta, Kluber and Whitlock in '23. That alone would help reduce the need to go so deep into the system to fill the need for innings from the pen. Maybe Gio can give us over 180 IP, Bello and Pivetta over 170 and whoever our 4 and 5 is, over 150, but that is likely wishful thinking. Last year Wink gave us 83 IP from the pen and only the pen. I hope we keep him in the pen for another 80-100 IP. Pivetta gave us 56 IP from the pen, including some memorable long outings. Replacing his IP in the pen is crucial. (Whitlock?) Matin (48) and Jansen (45) are essential to our pen success in 2024. If they can repeat 2024, our top two slots are set. The rest of the 2023 pen by most IP: 48 Murphy (He may not even give us 10 IP in '24) 45 Schreiber (missed a chunk of '23) 42 Bernardino (joined us mid season) 31 Bleier- GONE 30 Llovera- GONE 25 Jacques- may be the next guy DFA'd 23 Walter- doubtful contributor in '24 22 Crawford- probably our 4 or 5 SP 21 Brasier- GONE 20 Whitlock (would love to see 70-90 IP from the pen in 2024) 19 Ort-GONE 17 Garza- GONE 13 Kluber-GONE 11 Robertson-GONE 11 Joely-GONE 9 Kelly (missed 5 months) 9 Weiss- GONE 8 Bearclaw- GONE 7 Sherriff, 3 Littell & Scott and 2 Lamet & Faria- ALL GONE Maybe we can get by with 500 IP from the pen. This might be the ideal IP breakdown: 90 Wink 80 Whitlock 55 Schreiber 55 Bernardino 45 Martin 45 Jansen 45 Campbell 40 Slaten 45 Others I know this is a pipe dream, even with 100% good health from the pen. Whitlock or Wink will likely be forced to start some games, and some of the RP'ers I listed will struggle and need to be replaced by someone (Mata, Kelly, Fitts, Murphy, Weissert, Guerrero...?)

I think you are totally right, on this, but imagine what this whole Lester narrative would have been like had he decline, got injured or if his cancer returned, right after an extension. I realize most of us wanted him back, at the time, so this is not really hindsight judging, but my guess is, we'd have a whole different take, if that one over 30 pitchers ended up doing like many do: decline.

They were all big keys for a ring season, for sure. It's hard to determine, if it was worth it. To those who prefer consistent winning and don't like the cycle results, I'd think these kind of signings are what helped lead to the ups and downs.

I agree that the tear down was premature and too extreme, but they dragged out the rebuild by playing it half-way, too often. They kept trying to pretend we were going to be competitive, and the success of the 2021 team convinced them it was working. Yes, they should have kept the core together, longer, but had the traded a few more players, earlier, or instead of letting them walk for nothing, the rebuild might have been just 3-5 years long, not 6-8. The comp pick slot drop due to foolishly going over the tax line was unforgivable. The one year we lose two top players for comp picks, we choose to go over the tax line in a failed sham season. The non trades of Sale, when he had moree value, JD, Nate, ERod, JBJ and even lesser players like Hill, Strahm, Wacha and others were all opportunities lost. We all know Bogey had a no-trade clause, but I do believe he'd have agreed to be traded, if they just owned up to him about no extension being possible. If they had convinced themselves they had a shot at extending him, that makes them look even worse. Trying to walk the line of looking respectable while rebuilding makes it hard to do either.

This pretty much sums it all up.

Nothing done seems to be for the here and now, except the Gio signing. He's like all those one year $43-10M deals rolled into one player. I guess one could say O'Neill is, too. The Theo addition seems more about the long term, but maybe with the idea his addition may placate some of the fan unrest.

Agreed, but not bringing back Kimbrell & Kelly was a sign of change, even before the 2019 dip. (Not replacing them was part of the reason for the dip, too.)

I always appreciated your posts, both here and at that other site. Even when we disagreed, you made good points and backed up your positions with supporting details. I wish you'd post here, more, but I can understand wanting to avoid it.

MLBTR... The Red Sox have acquired catcher Tyler Heineman from the Mets, per announcements from both teams. The latter club, who designated Heineman for assignment earlier this week, receive cash considerations in return. The Sox designated right-hander Max Castillo for assignment in a corresponding move.

Maybe Theo will be our next Lucchino.