Maxbialystock

Fulmer is 9-2, ERA 2.41--daunting. ERod is far better than his 6.70 and 2-4, but still . . . Aaron Hill in for HanRam, but playing 3B with Shaw at 1B. Sox now 2.5 back of Baltimore and .5 back of Toronto. I think it was in last night's thread that someone said the Sox have now lost 7 times in games in which they scored 8 runs. And Kimmi pointed out that the Sox last 4 losses (to the Twins and Tigers) were all by 1 or 2 runs and winnable. Two pretty obvious trends: the Sox do struggle against good pitching even when the game is close and our starter is pitching well; our rotation and bullpen right now are both suspect. Farrell is under attack again but the complaints are reasonable and not harsh. Maybe the heat is bothering our guys more than the opposition (but I doubt it). On the upside, which Kimmi would insist upon, I still like the lineup and the defense and some possibilities with the rotation--Price is bound to come back, Pomeranz looked excellent, ERod could stick, Porcello should be fine, and Wright hopefully will adjust his knuckler. The bullpen is missing Kimbrel and Uehara, and getting another arm or two by trade is not a Herculean task (like getting a good starter). The upcoming brutal road trip could be worse--Angels in last place, Dodgers struggling, Mariners only 3 over .500. Sox are still a playoff team.

It's not just a matter of, "it ain't broke." It's also a matter--fear, really--that shifting players around will break what has worked awfully well so far. Betts leads the team by a bunch in runs scored and is second in rbi's. His OPS just went by Bogaerts and is headed toward .900. He is comfortable leading off as few players are. He is 2d in dingers and leads the team in SB's. Pedroia, meanwhile, has an OPS of .816, which is the highest it's been since 2011, 5 years ago.

In the postseason you go with what got you there. REmember, the lineup you disparage is the one that led MLB in runs scored and OPS, and Bogaerts contributed 18 games, 44 at bats. and a .684 OPS. Middlebrooks OPS was .696 with 17 dingers. It seems to me that Farrell started with the guys who got them there, but adjusted based on outcomes. Bogaerts hit well in the postseason and Middlebrooks did not, so by the WS Bogaerts was playing in all 6 games to Middlebrooks 1 game. A reasonable adjustment by Farrell. As for Salty, he was one of the best hitting catchers in the AL. This year we thought we had a solid defensive catcher in Vazquez, just what you would have ordered, but where is he now? In AAA because he can't hit and Sandy Leon can. Indeed, I will go one step further and say that defense does not win games in MLB. Hitting and pitching do. Defense and baserunning are important, but secondary. Besides, the one thing you can be sure of in the playoffs is that managers will not hesitate to make adjustments as they see fit to do. Wasn't Coco Crisp our CF in 2007 and didn't Ellsbury get some starts in the 2007 postseason and WS? Same thing happened to Nava/Gomes, Middlebrooks/Bogaerts, and Salty/Ross in the 2013 postseason. But you at least start the dance with whoever brung you.

Are you honestly saying it was the right instinct not to play Salty in the 2013 playoffs when he had one of the highest BA and OPS among AL catchers while Ross hit .216 in the regular season? Salty had 4 times as many at bats, but his offensive WAR (OWAR) was 3.5 to Ross's .3 , a huge difference not explained by 4 times as many at bats. Ross was a defensive catcher and a solid backup, period. I said Salty is still playing, FYI, as evidence his defense can't be all that bad. Same goes for the regular season in 2013--he wasn't good, but he wasn't a disaster. For one thing, the Sox pitching held up pretty good that season. On the decision to bench Salty after game 3 of the WS. You're right, by then it made sense and wasn't all that bold. But the fact remains that up until the WS the Sox had fared well--beating the Rays 3-1 and the Tigers 4-2--and, more importantly pitched well with Salty as the primary catcher. I did omit the fact that Salty did not hit well in the postseason, which probably made it easier to bench him after game 3 of the WS. But up until the WS you can't convince me that Ross should have suddenly been made the primary catcher for the ALDS and ALCS. Middlebrooks vs. Bogaerts. Like you and everyone else, I liked Bogaerts from the get go, but the simple fact is that he didn't even get to Boston until August 19, 2013, after which he played in a grant total of 18 regular season games. Middlebrooks had had an excellent season in 2012 with 75 games, 17 dingers,and an OPS of .835. In 2013 he played in 94 games with 19 dingers and an OPS of .696. Plus he was 4 years older than Bogaerts. Despite the very significant differential in age and experience, Farrell actually played Bogaerts in 12 games to 10 games for Middlebrooks in the 2013 postseason. By any rational measure, Farrell brought Bogaerts along very well. Luck factor in 2013. Beyond question, the Sox and Farrell were lucky. Stuff came together. Lackey blossomed after the tommy john and was better than ever. Lester had a great year. Uehara didn't start as the closer, but became one and did incredibly well, especially in the postseason. And so on. To me the story of the postseason was great pitching--team era was 2.00--and some timely hitting despite a low team OPS. Ortiz stood out with 13 rbi's, but guess what? Victorino had 12. Ortiz also had 12 runs scored, but Ellsbury had 14. Uehara had 7 saves, no BS's, and an ERA under 1. Fantastic. But he pitched 13 innings to Lester's 35 and Lackey's 26,and both of them had excellent postseasons. And let's not forget that of the Sox 5 postseason losses, one belongs to Uehara--game 3 at Tampa. My point is it was a team win and Farrell managed the team well. He did not in fact take "too long to adjust."

I hated his defense too and am confident that's the primary reason--plus other, better catchers coming up in the system and the cost of keeping Salty--the Sox let him go. But your case against Farrell, basically that he should simply not have used Salty in the 2013 postseason, is just silly. FWIW, I was surprised to learn that Salty's defensive WAR in 2013 was .3 to Ross's .6, which to me isn't a huge difference. And Saltalamacchia's overall WAR that year was 2.9, 4th best among AL catchers, to Ross's .7. And guess who is still catching in MLB and currently for the Tigers? Salty. The point is, it made all kinds of sense for Salty to be the primary catcher in the 2013 postseason, despite his defense. I pointed out--and you chose to ignore this--that he couldn't have been that bad defensively in the ALDS and ALCS, not only because the Sox won the first 3-1 and the second 4-2, but also because Salty caught the only Sox shut out, game 3 against the Tigers, in the 2013 playoffs. Farrell also didn't hesitate to have him pinch hit for Ross in the 7th inning and then stay in to catch in the 1-0 lost to Detroit. You keep saying that Farrell finally did what you recommended all along, but I see what happened very differently. He got some good use out of Salty in the first two series, ALDS and ALCS, which the Sox won, and used him in the WS, but then made a very bold decision after game 3 not to use him again, and it worked. I say again, I am not a Salty fan and basically agree with you about his defense. Plus I didn't like his K's (as a hitter). But the evidence is very strong that the Sox got good use out of him 2013 and then let him go when it made sense and Farrell in particular handled him brilliantly in the 2013 postseason. As I recall, I also preferred Nava over Gomes by a big margin in 2013, but give Farrell a ton of credit for getting the most out of both of them in the playoffs. It is also beyond me how you insist that not using Bogaerts more when he was 20 was a big mistake. Again, I didn't like Middlebrooks that much either, but he had experience. As it was, I think the evidence is very strong that Farrell brought Bogaerts along beautifully in 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016. Yes, a ton of credit goes to Bogaerts himself--the kid is talented--but Farrell helped by playing him just the right amount. Then of course there's the simple fact that the Sox won the WS in Farrell's first time managing in the postseason.

Offense is the problem because they couldn't figure out Verlander.

Rarely have Iseen the Sox have trouble against fast balls in or near the dead center of the strike zone. The best they seem to be able to do is foul those gopher pitches off. Shaw just swung and missed for strike three, two men on, against a fastball just below the center but otherwise in the middle of the zone.

Helluva game so far, 2 innings. Pomeranz was great after giving up the leadoff double in the 2d. Verlander threw the right pitch, a changeup, on that 3-2 count to Shaw, but it sure didn't move much and wham a double driving Bradley home.

No, I just didn't see Bellhorn's point because you didn't quote him in your response. Now that I understand the context, let me say the following about the 2013 World Series-- 1. You want to fire a manager whose team won that World Series, 4-2 over a good Cardinals team. 2. In game 3 he could have pinch hit Napoli for Workman--he'd already pinch hit twice for pitchers--but he decided to let Workman hit, I assume, so that he could stay in the game and pitch, maybe because Workman was our 5th pitcher in that game and the game was tied going into the 9th inning, in which Workman pitched. Not a bad idea, I'd say, given that Workman gave up no unearned runs in the 9th. 3. In the Series, Gomes had a higher OPS, .580, than Nava, .357, and more rbi's. How can you fault Farrell for using Gomes more? 4. I am no fan of Saltalamacchia and agree Ross was better defensively. But you know something? Horrible, stinking, rotten catcher that he was, Salty caught the best game pitched by a Sox pitcher in the 2013 postseason, game 3 against Detroit at Detroit, a shutout by Lackey, when he beat Verlander 1-0. He also pinch hit for Ross in the 7th inning and stayed in to finish another well-pitched game, the 1-0 loss to Detroit in game 1 of the ALCS. And let's not forget that that egregious error by Salty to lose game 3 to the Cardinals was actually not an error by him, but by Middlebrooks for interference. Nevertheless, Farrell correctly (in my opinion) decided that Salty was terminally stupid for making the throw in the first place and didn't play him again. Although Ross ended up with the higher OPS in the 2013 postseason, going in it made sense to play Salty because of his bat. And, as I say, he did catch a pretty good game or two. 5. Bogaerts. Are you serious saying he didn't play enough in the 2013 WS when he played in all 6 games (while striking out 8 times vs. 1 walk and having an OPS of .594)? All in all, the defense rests on the simple fact that the prosecution of Farrell as an inept 2013 WS manager is based on very flimsy evidence.

I have to say that's pretty thin gruel. In order, What year, 2013 or 2014, did Farrell not pinch hit Napoli? If 2013, who the hell cares? We won everything. If 2014, really, the same deal, only we were mired in the cellar. Salty in 2013. Again, who the hell cares? We won everything that year, and Saltalamacchia that year had an offensive WAR of 3.5, fifth best on the team and higher than Nava or Napoli. As for Gomes and Nava, I hope you know that Nava had 458 at bats vs. Gomes 312 at bats (and Gomes hit 13 dingers to Nava's 12). On top of which, who the hell cares when the Sox won it all? Too slow to play a 20 year old rookie? Come off it. Besides, who the hell cares when the Sox won everything? Your specific examples reinforce my belief--more than ever--that fans simply like to gripe about the manager regardless of how well they are doing overall. But when you pin them down, as I said at the outset, they turn out to be serving pretty thin gruel.

He had to use 4 pitchers last night to finish up the final 3.2 innings, and tonight he's already had to use 3 relievers after 7 innings. If Buchholz is available, he has to be used. Ditto Layne who gave up 1 walk and 2 hits and 2 runs without getting anyone out. Meanwhile guys like mvp78 are saying he overuses Uehara, which translates to restricting him to maybe once a week even though he is being paid $9M apparently to sit and watch games.

You blame the 7th on Farrell when the relievers can't get guys out and the outfielders play like clowns? Is it his fault Betts wasn't in RF tonight?

This game shows what a difference pitching can make because the Sox have a terrific offense, and Ortiz is central to it--but they still got that GIDP with the bases loaded in the 9th and no one out. Plus their starter went 8 giving up 1 run and 2 hits. Rodriguez had a decent start but only went 5.1 innings, which left 3.2 for the bullpen, which mean 4 pitchers (Hembree got no one out while giving up a hit and a walk). Good job by the bullpen and Farrell to keep the game close and give the lineup a chance to win it.

Very nice 3d inning by ERod.

This is starting to look like a ball game. The Twins pitcher looks pretty good to me. Erod has control problems.

Dead on. Last time he definitely looked like a good version of 2015. If he repeats that tonight, he is on his way. If he sticks, that's a rotation of 3 lefties, a knuckler, and just one righty. Of those three lefties, none has a really good, reliable changeup. I'm pretty sure Pomeranz doesn't have one and that the other two do have changeups, but not reliable ones.

Agree with both of you. And both of those skills can be improved upon with practice. Heck, they should have been fixed by now, but I guess Farrell is just grateful that Hanley can in fact play 1B as he could not play LF.

That's actually what I think too. Price is still good despite the ERA, Wright and Porcello continue to amaze me, and ERod could be last year's version returned. Pomeranz is a question mark, but that's OK for your #5.

I was supposed to ignore the manager? Or, if I did mention him, I was supposed to ignore that most everyone applauded him in 2013 but people want him fired in 2016, largely because of 2014 and 2015? To me one of the "thought-provoking" elements in the OP is that these two very different teams are playing or did play pretty good baseball for the same manager who stayed in Boston through two grim years. It's the same exact guy, only now he is despised in some corners despite the team playing well. But I do agree it's still an interesting topic without even mentioning Farrell because of the dramatic overhaul since 2016--about which the mind boggles. And let's not forget that in 2014 Cherington had every intention of keeping most of the 2013 team. He didn't want Lavarnway as catcher and couldn't meet the Yankees price for Ellsbury, but he kept most everyone else until midseason. Even with the acquisition of Sandoval, the rebuild has been pretty darn successful despite the pitching issues.

Just 3 years apart, but humoungous changes. In 2016 a new SS, 3B, 1B, LF, CF, RF, and C plus an entirely new rotation of Price, Porcello, Wright, Pomeranz, and ERodriguez. 2013 team had a new but well respected manager named John Farrell, but in 2016 we are stuck with a loser ( 2014 and 2015) named johnfreakingfarrell who insists on abusing and misusing his bullpen, who had the temerity to play Young in LF against righty pitchers, who allows his players so much freedom on the basepaths they are continually getting picked off or thrown out trying to steal or advance when it's inadvisable, who is clueless on when to take a starter out, ditto on putting together a lineup card. Nevertheless, despite the liability of a loser manager and an astonishing turnover of position players and starters, the 2016 team is now in first place in the AL East and has a real shot at the playoffs. With 93 games played, they are 15 games above .500 with 54 wins and 39 losses. The 2013 team at this points was 56-37, 2 games ahead of the current Sox. The 2013 team had better pitching but surprisingly, were still ranked 14th in MLB in ERA, whereas the current Sox are 18th in MLB in ERA. The 2013 team, however, was about half an ERA better. Both 2013 and 2016 led/lead MLB in runs scored and OPS, but the 2016 team has a higher OPS and should outscore the 2013 team by a bunch. Fielding-wise, I'd called it a draw: Bradley>Ellsbury, Betts=Victorino, Holt>Gomes, Napoli=Ramirez, Pedroia 2013>Pedroia2015, Drew>Bogaerts, Shaw=2013 conglomerate, Leon>Salty. Overall, I have to give the edge to the 2013 team because their pitching, with a cumulative ERA of 2.00, was just unreal in the playoffs. Nevertheless, this team, like the 2013 team, is a lot of fun to watch. Feel free to disagree.

I hope Farrell finally has the good sense to get more arms in the bullpen--most MLB teams carry 12 pitchers, but we probably need 15 or so--to prevent injuries like the one to Uehara. The Sox are not paying Uehara $9M this year to go out and pitch every damn night. He is paid to pitch only when he is good and ready and fully certified by the team doctor, repeated MRI's, the MLBPA, and at least 10 pitching coaches. From here on out, the rule in the bullpen must be, "no more injuries, which means fewer appearances per reliever, fewer hard fastballs (anything over 85mph), and fewer pitches that cause extra strain on the arm, shoulder, knee, etc. If a pitcher just tells the pitching coach he doesn't feel like pitching, he should be excused, simple as that." These are simple measures, and, if Farrell can't implement them, he should be fired.

Truer words were never spoken. Kimbrel and all those other relievers on the DL have had the same fate. Farrell seems intent on wrecking the bullpen by constantly sending those guys out to pitch when they need rest and lots of it. I've heard rumors that before going out there the last time, Uehara was on the phone begging Farrell not to send him out yet again. I understand the UN is looking into the possibility of human rights abuses. When will this Red Sox nation nightmare finally end?

It would be nice if Wright could go 7 or 8 innings tonight. Last night the Sox could only manage 16 hits against the Giants, so let's hope they can do a little better tonight. With Duffy a righty, probably the same old lineup tonight. Hannigan might go in for Leon and bat 9th, moving Holt up to 8th. -I just checked mlb.com, and Hanigan is in there, but batting 8th to Holt's 9th.

What velocity? His fastball has always been below 90 mph. What makes the fast ball effective is his control and his splitter, which, I agree, isn't what it was in 2013. I hear you on the age thing, but he is also being paid $9M/year, about the same as closer Kimbrel. Most teams like to have a set pattern for their best relievers--closer gets the 9th, best setup and occasional closer gets the 8th, etc.--when games are close. It sounds as though you believe that age alone should circumscribe how our presumed second best closer should be used. More importantly, you blame the injury on overuse when in fact every pitcher, young or old, is risking injury. Kimbrel is 14 years younger and on the DL after knee surgery.

I agree with those urging caution vs. rush to judgment. Nevertheless, it is clear Farrell was not impressed. Given the 8-0 lead, he could have left Pomeranz in a little longer.