Maxbialystock

Pretty good intro. Dodgers have pitching edge tonight. Sox have struggled against lefties this year and tonight will probably not have HanRam or Big Papi. Lately Farrell has sat Shaw against lefties, but can't tonight. He probably won't play Benintendi in LF--Brentz instead. And Hill at 3B. Maybe: Betts, Pedroia, Bogaerts, Bradley, Leon, Shaw, Hill, Brentz, Wright. If HanRam plays, he will bat 4th, then Bradley, Leon, Hill, Brentz, and Wright. A win tonight would be, for me, unexpected.

Since we won, I sure hope you're right, but I keep remembering our latest homestand when we went 4-5. We took two from the Giants, great, but then split 4 with the Twins and lost all 3 to the Tigers. On the road trip we have so far split with cellar-dwellers LA and with .500 Seattle. Now 3 in a NL park which probably means no Ortiz and maybe no Ramirez.

I think he was being ironic or facetious but not sarcastic.

I not only agree, but also point to the latest homestand when the Sox went 4-5. Lately the Sox are simply playing bad baseball.

I like Sparky Anderson's quotes and Kimmi's basic approach.

By your logic, almost any loss can be blamed on the manager because he wrote the lineup card, set the rotation, etc. Going back to Tuesday night, my reasoning is: 1) Price was our $217M ace, was going great guns through 7 innings, had only thrown 89 pitches, and Farrell should have been fired on the spot if he didn't stay with him in the 8th, especially with our flaky bullpen. 2) The solo dinger only made the score 4-1 and could have happened anytime and FArrell would have, should have kept his ace in the game. Besides, he correctly had no one warming up. Are you seriously advocating bringing in a cold pitcher to replace your ace with a 4-1 lead? 3) Next guy gets on with a "soft fly" which I didn't see but interpret as a fluke hit. Again, keep Price in. 3) Now a hard ground ball for a single. OK, warm someone up (which had probably already started), and send the pitching coach out. You still have a 4-1 lead and your ace on the mound. 4) Soft line drive, slightly flukish, but now the score is 4-2 with men on 1st and 2d. Probably time to bring in Barnes even though the bullpen is inconsistent. 5) Barnes does his job, strikes his man out. Great. Men still on 1st and 2d, but now one man out. But coming up is one of the best lefty hitters in the AL, sort of like David Ortiz. Abad is available, is a lefty, and has a good record against Cano. Barnes is also a good choice because of the K he got, but by no means the only choice. 6) Abad gets two strikes on Cano, which to me demonstrates Farrell made a good decision, but then he throws a fat pitch that Cano clobbers for 3 runs, the lead, and the game. That's baseball, Give Cano some credit, the same way we always give Ortiz credit (and never blame the opposing manager for having the wrong pitcher in the game). 7) Abad gets the next two guys out, including another good hitter, Cruz, again indicating Farrell made a good choice despite the outcome. 8) Shaw walks in the 9th, but Bradley, Leon, and Benintendi all strike out, which of course is Farrell's fault because the players are never at fault. I apologize that some of the above is over the top, but I did it that way to emphasize that to me Farrell's choices were reasonable and that that's all we can expect. I might add that we/you are only assuming a better outcome if Farrell had not sent Price out for the 8th or removed him sooner or kept Barnes in or whatever. We don't in fact know what would have happened. We only know we don't like what did happen.

I hope you realize that the lion's share of the Farrell criticism for Tuesday night is about leaving Price in too long. The argument goes that FArrell should have had guys warming up when Price went to the mound, that he should have dashed out to talk to him after the first batter's dinger, etc. But, borrowing your approach, going into that inning Price was going great guns and the smart move was not to panic just because it was the 8th and the Sox only had a 4-0 lead (joke) and Price had already thrown 89 pitches (a low number for him). I too thought Barnes was lights out--but that was just one batter. Coming up was one of the best lefty hitters in the game. Yes, Barnes has that good fastball, but we have many times seen that a good fastball is still hittable when the batter knows it's coming. But my real point is this. If Barnes had stayed in and given up the dinger, you would be insisting that Farrell failed to use that great lefty arm, Abad, who had a good record against Cano. Heck, I might even agree that Barnes was a slightly better choice against Cano, but I only expect a manager to make a reasonable choice.

Again, thanks for your civility. I think we come from different perspectives. I don't think managers win or lose games to the degree that players do. I also assume the every manager in MLB has access to better information/stats and better advice (pitching coach, bench coach) and has more experience than any of us. I therefore assume every decision is reasonable regardless of the outcome. But there is another school of thought that believes outcomes are the only basis for evaluating a manager. I believe that's true in terms of the overall performance of a team. If they are underperforming, the front office has every right to consider getting a new manager, which is exactly what Sox management did after the September 2011 debacle. However, I must add that, when Francona was the manager and I was on that other site, Francona was basically blamed for every single loss to Sox had--by some fans, anyway. Those fans assumed that good managers don't lose, period, as preposterous as that sounds. After every loss, without exception, there would be a few who said, "Francona should have done this or that." It is because of that experience that these days I tend to defend the manager on specific decisions even when I agree that overall wins and losses should determine his fate.

I woke up at 1 am and watched the bottom of the 8th and the next 3 innings. It was actually a classic baseball game from an earlier era (100 years ago?) when scoring was at a premium. If you get mlb.com At Bat as I do for my ipad, you can get the highlights for replay. For last night's game there were 12 highlights for 11 innings which is far and away the fewest highlights I can remember for one game. I missed Pomeranz but noticed he gave up 6 walks in 6 innings. That must have been fun. Farrell ended up using 5 relievers, I thought to good effect. Someone complained that Kimbrel should have pitched the 11th and ignored the brilliance of pulling Abad for Kimbrel in the 9th with two on, two out, and Cano coming to the plate. Kimbrel seems to have rediscovered his knuckle curve during his time on the DL because he is using it more now than before and used it with great effect on Cano, who in this case had the advantage, lefty batter vs. righty pitcher. He grounded out--not a hard grounder--to Pedroia on that lovely knuckle curve. Kimbrel pitching the 10th also made sense. Had Ziegler not been available, I think Kimbrel would have pitched the 11th, but I can't see how anyone can question the use of of Ziegler. The fact that Kimbrel only needed 14 pitches means he is available tonight against the Dodgers. Ditto, for that matter, Ziegler. Has no one else notice that the Sox great scoring machine ain't exactly hitting on all cylinders? They have averaged over 5 runs per game for the season, but have scored more than 5 runs in exactly one game out of the last 9--the 6-2 win over the Angels in game 2. Earlier, they scored 3 against the Tigers in game 3; 1, 2, and 3 runs in the other 3 games against the Angels, and 1, 4, 1, and 3 runs against Seattle. During that same period Ortiz had 3 rbi's and 4 hits. The point is, right now we need good pitching from both the rotation and the bullpen. Fortunately, the rotation is probably better right now than it has been all year. And the bullpen is capable if not lights out.

Good comments by both of you. I myself tend to be critical.

I broke my rule Monday night and watched the whole darn game, didn't get in until 7:30, and was semi-worthless most of the day. We are talking about addiction here. Not good. With the weekend so close, I'm thinking of watching some of tonight's game even though it's Pomeranz.

Really? You guys should do a little fact-checking now and then. At 97 pitches Iwakura was already over his average of 91 pitches/per game. He has thrown more than 97 pitchers in 4 of his 22 starts, and when he did he threw 98, 98, 100, and 102 pitches. This explains why the bullpen was already warmed up. The Seattle manager was fully ready to pull the trigger. Price, on the other hand, thrives on throwing over 100 pitches. His 8th innings are his 4th best innings, especially when he is going great guns as he was Tuesday night. And, as I pointed out before, when Barnes came in with the score 4-2, Boston, with men on 1st and 2d, the situation was way better than the night before when Ross came in with the Sox down 1-0 and men on 2d and 3d with 1 out. The difference which you two keep ignoring is that Ross did his job and struck out 2 to end the inning. Then Hill homered and then so did Betts to win the game in the 9th. Tuesday night Barnes did his job, but Abad did not. I sometimes think you guys have a simple rule--if the Sox lose, Farrell must have done something wrong because it's rarely the fault of the players. Speaking of which, how come the Sox got nothing off Iwakuma whose ERA before the game was over 4? We had 7 hits and 2 of them were by a guy who was facing MLB pitching for the first time in his life. Our team RISP was 0 for 5, and we had 8 K's and 0 walks. To remind: I do believe managers are accountable for wins and losses and that the front office is always entitled to fire a manager if they believe the team is winning fewer games than they should with the talent they have. I was in favor of firing Farrell last year for exactly that reason. But this year I like the winning record. On the other hand, I think this team has enough talent right now to get into the playoffs. If they don't, it's on Farrell. My goodness, management made the gutsy decision to move up Benintendi even though Holt wasn't gawdawful, and it looks like he just might be ready to contribute. But the Sox still lost another one. Remember, it's not just a bad road trip. The homestand beforehand was also bad--4-5 at Fenway, including splitting with the Twins and losing all 3 to the Tigers. Whether or not Farrell is making good decisions on pitching, this team right now is adrift.

I don't need a reason. I hit the sack at 10 so I can be at the office by 7.

Thanks for the civil response. Am I right in saying that the Sox are paying Price $217M ($30M/year), that Price shut down the Mariners for the first 7 innings on 3 hits, no walks, and 5 K's, that going into the 8th Price had only thrown 89 pitches, that Price left the game having thrown 98 pitches, fewer than he had thrown in the previous six games, and that our bullpen has not been all that reliable?

I think you guys are ignoring that, when Barnes came out and struck out the only batter he faced, the score was 4-2 and men were on 1st and 2d. The game at that point was not out of control. Indeed, Farrell then had the option of keeping Barnes in or bringing in Abad to face Cano. Most would agree Abad was the better choice and in fact Abad got 2 strikes on him before missing his target and putting one in the center of the zone (or so I've read). The night before, I think it is worth noting, Farrell had a very similar situation in the 7th inning when ERod had been cruising. He got the first out on a grounder, then have up a single to Cano and a walk to Cruz. Then a visit to the mound. Lee then doubled, scoring Cano and moving Cruz to 3B. ERod out, Ross in, and Ross hits the first guy to load the bases. Then, however, he struck out the next two guys to end the inning with the Sox down 1-0. Later Hill homers in the 8th and Betts in the 9th to win. No outcry, none, on that game thread about how slow to react Farrell was, about how he should have had at least two guys warming up when ERod went out to pitch the 7th, about how the pitching coach or Farrell himself should have run out to the mound immediately after the double by Cano, especially in a 0-0 tie game. And why was there no outcry Monday night? Because the Sox won the game. Because Ross got out there in time to stop the bleeding and, after hitting a guy, struck two out. Last night Barnes did his job, but Abed did not. To me Farrell did his job too--both nights. But one night the bullpen excelled (in their own way) and the other night the bullpen did not.

Two initial points: 1) I didn't stay up and watch the end last night; 2) reading this thread, I was pretty convinced Farrell really did blow it this time. Then I looked at the summary of the 8th inning, which I recap for one and all: Zunino homers. Martin singles on a soft fly ball to center (note word "soft"). Sardinas singles on a sharp ground ball to right (note words ground ball). Coaching visit to mound (after 3 batters in the 8th). Heredia singles on soft line drive to right, Martin scores, Sardinas to 2B. Score now 4-2 Sox, no one out. Coaching visit--Barnes in for Price. Barnes strikes Smith out. Another coaching visit, Abad replaces Barnes. Cano homers for 3 runs, Seattle now up, 5-4. Abad gets next two out on fly to CF and grounder to 1B. In the 9th, Bradley K's, Shaw walks, and Leon and Benintendi (the anointed one) strike out. From the above I think Farrell's decisions were very defensible. He sent Price out for the 8th because of the 89 pitches and a good track record in 8th innings, which is the same reason for not warming up the bullpen right away. Moreover, Tazawa and Kimbrel. presumably his two best, pitched the night before. But my real point is that Barnes went into the game with the score 4-2 and immediately struck the batter out. At that point Farrell and the bullpen had re-established control of the game. All was far from lost at that point even though no one had warmed up before the bottom of the 8th began. I might also note that, except for the dinger, Price was not hit hard in the 8th--soft fly, grounder, and soft liner. If there was a mistake, it was bringing Abad in for Barnes, but Barnes would have been a righty facing one of the best lefty hitters in the AL, Cano, and Abad, a lefty, was not only available but apparently had a good record against Cano. He even got 2 strikes on him. But Abad threw a fat pitch to one of the best hitters in the game--kind of like Ortiz. When I go back and look at the complaints in the thread about Farrell's rank stupidity, no one mentions that Barnes actually got into the game with the score 4-2, men on first and second, and struck out the first batter he faced. To me that's a pretty big omission.

Your view of Betts is mostly in the eye of the beholder. In fact, it was the Pedroia dinger in the 9th that drove in the 3 runs. Betts single was good and kept the rally alive, but Pedroia was the man. For most of this season, in case you haven't noticed, the man has been the old fart Ortiz. That said, anyone who isn't rooting for and loving what Betts does is blind. He is having a great year and doing it in a tough spot, leadoff, where he is 2d on the team in rbi's and 1st in runs scored. Plus he plays that tough RF position. I would never question anyone who picked Betts as the team MVP.

If by terrible, you mean not in the right location, I agree. But I like those stats, which I have not seen before.

Maybe I wasn't watching attentively enough, but I thought ERod threw a whole lot of fastballs, sometimes mixing in with sliders, but sliders that were mostly outside of the strike zone. Before the game he mentioned he was really happy with his changeup, but in the game he threw very few, or so it seemed to me. I agree with the view that the results were fantastic--until the 7th, the Mariners couldn't hit him.

A pretty amazing game for the 2d game in a row. While Kimbrel's curve may be a pain to catch, it is also borderline unhittable whereas his fastball is not. Before the knee injury he threw mostly fastballs, but last night was mostly curve balls. In these two close games the winning home runs were hit by the top of the order. Sox and Jays now 1 game back of the Orioles, but the wild card contenders are accumulating--the Astros and Tigers, anyway. Only two teams in the AL, Oakland and Minnesota, have given up more runs than the Sox. Last night I thought Farrell handled the bullpen about as well as it can be done. That is, he took ERod out at the penultimate moment before the deluge, kept Ross in even after the HBP that loaded the bases, and stuck with Tazawa, despite issues, for the 8th. Leon finally figured out it's OK--indeed, a good idea--to actually move your feet when a curve is going in the dirt to your right.

After yesterday's spectacular 9th inning following tough losses to the Angels and a mediocre home stand, it's hard to predict anything. It's the best of times and the worst of times. Every one of our starters can deliver a solid game--or not. And lately the hitting is the same way.

Could not agree more, and I started this thread.

I agree he's the one guy, etc--present tense. But you better believe there have been seasons--or parts of seasons--in Boston when he was not the best choice. As for right now, he leads the AL in OPS, plus he has a ton of hitting experience, so of course he is everyone's first choice. To me a hitter is clutch when he consistently over-performs in clutch situations. Thus Pedroia's dinger yesterday was almost beyond clutch because he had already struck out 3 times and he doesn't have the big OPS like Ortiz and he doesn't drive in a lot of runs and he has half as many dingers as Ortiz.

Pretty convincing. I definitely think veterans can help, but it depends on the veterans. To me Pedroia is a better leader than Ortiz because he also plays a position in the field. He missed the 2004, but not the 2007 and 2013 WS, plus he has a pretty good track record when he is healthy. I agree with you that it's an intangible. I have seen no evidence that clutch isn't real, but I've seen nothing that says it is real. I do think hitters with talent and experience are more likely to hit in clutch situations simply because they are more likely to hit period. So much depends on what the pitcher is throwing.

May I add that I'm pretty sure both dingers were on sliders, which kind of undercuts my thesis that these guys can't hit breaking balls.