Maxbialystock

Fister in the 3d was the one we know. Two nifty throws in the 2d by Bogie and Devers--the very same guys I maligned earlier on this thread. I love that.

So far Biagini is pitcher better than Fister--more strikes, more corners. But I'm not yet worried because Fister has been so good at adjusting, and becausBiagini is not exactly owning the Sox hitters. 1-1 after 2 is fine. Oh, and Fister just got a 5 pitch K in the 3d .

Is this a NYC thing, this inability to find an apt example from history? The rest of Europe ganged up on him and beat the crap out of the French Army because they caught Napoleon cheating, like on his mistress or something? You don't think we have bunches of cheaters who got their comeuppance right here in the good old USA? We are knee deep in famous cheaters who got nailed. Besides, what's the point in going after Farrell when his ineptitude is what is putting him at risk? Or so we think on talksox, anyway. One theory is that firing Farrell now just might help the Sox, not penalize them. And don't forget the big signal from the FO--Farrell's contracts are year to year. Do you really think other MLB managers would be reacting to Farrell's firing now with, "boy, look what that cost him." On the other hand, I would be most interested in any information on how often and in what games the Sox were cheating. My impression based on what I've read is that it was a cumbersome process that maybe wasn't always timely and therefore now and then no help. The Sox ineptitude hitting this year was and is a powerful incentive to cheat, but at the same time I'm not so sure it helped. Moonslav says the Sox OPS's are not only mostly worse than last year, they are also worse in the 2d half than the 1st half of this season.

You betcha red ryder.

Is there anyone on talksox who disagrees with that?

I sure don't believe that. They are losing because they can't hit. Moonslav has documented that most everyone has a worse OPS this year than last and the second half vs. the first half of this season. I completely buy the idea that their attitude is just fine. NOAA map shows a lot of stuff on top of eastern Massachusetts (Boston included) and more coming from eastern and central NY state. 50% might be optimistic, but local weather guys are probably pretty good.

1 Nunez 2b 2 Pedroia DH 3 Benintendi LF 4 Betts RF 5 Moreland 1B 6 Bogaerts SS 7 Devers 3b 8 Leon C 9 JBJ CF Pedroia for HanRam at DH a small surprise, but I thought Pedey looked better at the plate last night. Devers, honestly, is no surprise with Pedroia at DH. He might be in a slump or struggling to make adustments, but we flat know he can hit. And we can be pretty sure that Lin, Marrero, Holt, et al, can't. (I cite those three under the assumption that Nunez is fine at 2b or 3b which would allow any of those 3 to play 2b). Devers a little problematic fielding at 3b, Nunez going back on popups ditto (but now he has JBJ and Betts backing him up). Bogie only so-so at SS. But Devers was at 3b for Fister's last, superb start. Nunez played SS and 2b. Pedey started at 2b. IF should be OK if not sterling.

Thanks. Do we know precisely which games in which the Sox were stealing signals (even though they may have been doing so earlier)? The 12 games still apply, however, except for that one great game against Gray.

This ain't the development league. Devers is 20 in his first MLB and not even his rookie year. This is September, not April. The 8 dingers are both real and significant,just as you say. But they were all in his first 20 games. In the next 16 he has 0 dingers and 2 doubles. Plus we are all watching his every at bat, which tell me that he has yet to adjust to what opposing pitchers are throwing. You make a good point that leaving Devers in the lineup, even when he isn't hitting, won't make that much difference given the rest of the lineup, but you are also forgetting that his defense ain't helping either. He has 7 errors in 34 games and a DWAR of 0. For all those reasons--pennant race, Yankees on our tail, 23 games left, struggles at the plate, age 20 in first MLB season, doubtful defense--I give Farrell on pass on whatever he does. I honestly think Devers will get back in there precisely because of that stupendous hitting talent. But I am not quite ready to throw Farrell into managerial purgatory because he is mishandling Devers.

Are we talking about the 4 games series just completed at Yankee Stadium? Or another series?

Very interesting, both of you--one saying will be fired and should be, the other this is no big deal.

I'm against cheating and am fine with any punishment that comes down. That said, 1. This cheating sure didn't help the Sox much. 2. Sign-stealing is completely OK, just not electronic sign-stealing. 3. But electronics are themselves just fine and are used in lots of ways to discover opposing team's weaknesses. One is to study a pitcher's motion throwing various pitches to spot a telltale. Maybe the Guardians have done that with Sale. Another is to spot a hitter's weaknesses, and this is undoubtedly what has happened to Devers. Another is to study a pitcher's motion to anticipate when is the right time to steal on him. 4. Every MLB team now has a dedicated video guy during the game whose only job is to instantly replay any suspect calls the manager might challenge. This has become so commonplace--especially the detailed replays--that some baserunners are now working on special sliding techniques to be able to snag the base even when the throw has beat them. They are hoping the replay will catch something the umpire didn't. 5. Legal sign-stealing has made the game even more complex because catchers must find a way to combat it. I would be surprised if there weren't regular instances when a pitcher--with a runner on 2d--throws the wrong pitch simply because the catcher signals are so complex he misses the call. All because of that guy on 2b. Some catchers now almost routinely jog out to the mound in key situations, including a man on 2b, simply to tell the pitcher what they should throw next. How is any of that good for baseball? The Sox should be punished, no question. But I'm not sure a slam dunk resolves the whole issue regarding sign-stealing.

Can't disagree. I personally don't like the "legal" sign-stealing because it causes these very complicated catcher signals, some of whom now paint their fingernails.

That's just making excuses. Sox were wrong and must pay. I hate cheating. Let MLB worry about other perps.

That's me too in most games. But the Sox current situation--September, Yankees closing on us, loss streak, etc--combined with that totally unexpected 9th inning kept me riveted.

Bingo! Exactly the same for me. I wanted to go to bed at 11 but couldn't. Then nature (and my age) took over.

But ain't it nice to finally have a win and the Yankees 3.5 back? That 19 inning saga was a tonic even with the weak hitting. It's also nice to see ERod start a game with some authority and Mookie to get two great doubles when the really counted. And the bullpen, my gosh. 11 guys, 0 runs, 13 innings. There is no doubt in my mind all 11 would love to go out again tonight in another close game. They have to be thinking that they absolutely, positively won that game last night and when it was badly needed.

Fister is the man, no question. Biagini may be as rotten as his 5.01 ERA, but last night was the 12th straight game--with the singular exception of the three dingers against Gray last week when our guys were probably stealing signals--our lineup has been unable to get to the opposing starter. My expectation is a hard fought, low-scoring game.

Dead on--on both accounts, attitude and lack of hitting. The attitude is why we keep watching and the hitting is why some pain is involved in watching.

Thanks to MVP78 for squeezing out that last bit of mojo to get this win and to moonslav who has kept the faith.

Agree. But, honestly, I thought that guy was a little hesitant on earlier plays and that maybe Betts was counting on that. But you are right about what we would have said if the CF made the grab, especially with no one out. What was he thinking? My answer is he was thinking about the 9th when HanRam came to bat with men on base and grounded out to the left side. My answer is that that pop to CF, if caught, would not allow Betts to get to 3b with one out. My answer is that Betts put that entire game on his back and did what he thought would win the game. And he was so right. I have griped about his hitting as much as anyone, but there is no doubt in my mind he is a great ballplayer, one who can beat you five different ways (hit, hit with power, field, throw, run the bases). On top of that, I think he has exceptional situation awareness.

Meh. You twisted my words, of course. I am absolutely not anti-Devers because of his obvious potential. I'm not blind. All I'm saying is that he is missing games right now for a reason--mostly, his hitting has dropped off, but also because his defense is suspect--and that the easy K last night did not suggest that he has things figured out. Then I also said I can see the real possibility of Devers getting back into the lineup with Nunez going back to SS and Bogie dropping out. This ain't April or even August. Given our hitting woes and the reality there are just 23 games left, patience is not a virtue right now. Farrell has to go with the guys he thinks can help right now. If he says Devers, I am fine with that. If he doesn't, I will understand why.

Longest game thread this season? This game, this much-needed win certainly deserved it Betts the real batting hero, far more than HanRam. Mookie's two doubles led directly to all three Sox runs. In the 2 run 9th to tie, Mookie had the only Sox hit. In the 19th his leadoff double meant he could score on a variety of fly outs and groundouts. His judgment allowed him to go on HanRam's pop single to CF in the 19th. Farrell used his bullpen right for once. 3.5 up on the Yankees with 23 still to play--excellent. Devers K did not suggest he needs to get back into the lineup--he couldn't hit fastballs, meaning he couldn't even foul one off. However, of the other infielders, only Nunez and Pedey seem able to hit, and Pedey apparently not every day. Erod solid start simply because from the first pitch he was keeping the ball low, hitting his spots,and mixing his pitches. Maybe he has learned what it takes to be a real MLB pitcher. Sale says, "don't worry about me." But it's hard not to given his September track record. Porcello has not found his way back. Pom can be good, but rarely good enough to go beyond 6 and too often beyond 5. Fister alone still seems to be solid. But we are in September, the month of bottomless bullpens. Bullpen so good it's still hard to believe. 11 arms, 13 scoreless innings. Two good catchers.

Meh. I would have used him too, but seriously doubt he would have made a difference. Better to have him pinch hit when we really need just one hit.

Did Scott spend two bits on a shave and a haircut?