Maxbialystock

It torques me that Sale had all those problems in the 1st and never threw a single changeup.

That 1st was brutal, but ended well. Moreland is a hero for that darn double. Now Devers needs to chime in.

No, no, no. You need to lead this. We lost last night, and Sale looks like he needs some help and new blood. Besides, I like your comments.

Why no game thread for tonight?

I love stats and try to use/understand so-called metrics, but I also think they are just a way to start the dialogue (and also to continue it). I like moonslav's the best but I think he too sees them as an aid and not the final word.

Compelling. I am aghast.

This post game thread is better on Farrell than the Farrell thread.

Exactly. Furthermore, I don't much care whether it's the players fault. You lose, you're gone unless management has compelling reasons to keep you. I think that's fair.

Here on September 3, I'm thinking I want Fister back. Also Sale and Price of course. Probably Porcello. Then the better of Pom and Rodriguez. You can never have enough pitching, but right now I don't want to go after new blood, espxially when the hitting is suspect and the salary cap is an issue.

Than you are better than I. After that September 2011 collapse and even though I steadfastly defended Francona throughout the season, I was fine with the dismissal. Heck, I was even dumb enough to think Valentine would work out. I'm a vet and a service brat, and to me the meaning of the Caine Mutiny is that you back the captain even when he clearly has issues (Queeg was paranoid, which I would suggest all MLB managers need to guard against becoming).

Ellsbury is exactly the guy I compare Beni to: speed and hitting and some defensive ability in the outfield. Funny thing, but I remember people, including me, being mesmerized by Ellsbury's speed and decent bat. He got very little criticism except on some of his routes to the ball. His rookie year, age 24, was 2008 when we had just come off our 2d WS win, fans were happy, and here was this 24 year old who stole 50 bases, some of which were dazzling. Wasn't that the year he scored from 2b on a wild pitch? This year the heat is on. The WS win 2013 is ancient history and now regarded as the result of a unique combination of things jelling. The very next year, most of the same guys had a rotten season. 2015 also rotten. 2016 better, but then killed by the Guardians in the ALDS after a very good September run to seize the AL East. This year we want more, and we are far less tolerant of mistakes than in 2008. Consequently, we don't quite see that Benintendi, while he is unlikely ever to steal 50 bases in a season, is having a better year than Ellsbury in 2008 when he was a year older than Beni is this year. Farrell has kept Beni up in the lineup when more experienced players, players who were really good last year, have not been able to deliver. That's pressure way greater than Ellsbury experienced. In 2008 the Sox were 2d in the AL in runs and 6th in dingers. Ellsbury was just the icing on the cake. Farrell has asked Beni for meat and potatoes and, dare I say, a little bit of icing too because he wants the Sox aggressive on the basepaths. On another thread several talksox guys said the Sox aggressive baserunning this year is generally (outside of Boston) regarded as a plus, not as constant running into outs. The Sox are dead last in the AL in dingers, but 5th in doubles, and not all of those doubles were safe or guaranteed--some of them were earned. The green monster has converted many would be doubles off the wall into outs at 2b. And, guess what? The decision to go or not to go is split second and demands what the Germans call fingerspitzengefuhl and we call exceptional situation awareness. I think Beni is very aware, but is still adapting to the better arms and experienced situational awareness of MLB defenses. We might not like everything he does in LF, but I would like anyone to name another regular Sox leftfielder (that's Beni's destiny until JBJ leaves, which is unlikely) who could play CF even better than LF. Instead of comparing him to Betts and JBJ, compare him to last year's LF and get back to me on that. The two best Sox leftfielders in the John Henry era have been Manny Ramirez and Jason Bay (who in 2009 had 15 assists and 0 errors--impressive). Jason Bay, who lasted just one full season (and 2 months of the year before), is the only Sox leftfielder in the John Henry who could both hit well--the first requirement of a Sox leftfielder--and field decently. Beni is the 2d. Manny of course was the best overall LF because of that great bat. This has been a pressure-filled season since April, and the pressure if anything keeps mounting. Here in September while other, more experienced--and that does help in MLB--players are flailing, 23 year old Beni is manning up when it counts. So me, I'll take that and not sweat the rookie mistakes because, all things considered, this is one heckuva rookie (and mostly under the radar at that).

Back to Bogaerts for a moment, please. Yesterday he missed his second straight game. Worse for him, Lin went in at 2b and Nunez stayed at SS. In other words, Farrell wants him to get comfortable there. To me that is a clear signal that, if Pedroia can play regularly (if not every single day), Bogaerts could be closed out at 3b and SS for the rest of the season. Farrell wants to keep Devers, Nunez, and Pedroia's bats in the lineup as much as possible, given that hitting is our biggest problem in a heated pennant race in its final month, and will use lefty bat Lin, with his good defense, to fill in now and then. That could well be an overstatement, but I think it points toward the reality of Bogaerts situation today. In order, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017, Bogaerts four full season WAR's in Boston are: 0.2, 4.6, 3.7, and 1.3.

He has a decent arm, but you could be right preparing to throw--he could be rushing.

This is me bashing you. I think the criticism is overly harsh. We have one of the best defensive outfields in MLB. Betts and JBJ are the biggest parts of that, but Beni is not a liability and certainly no worse than Ellsbury his first full year when he often played LF. Beni has a better arm.

Don't forget pitchers not covering 1b quickly on any grounder to the right. That's inexcusable and it happens with a few. I do not think really bonehead plays can't cost us a game and hope I will say so when it happens.

Let me say too that talksox is a terrific blog site and I truly appreciate the insights of everyone who wants Farrell gone or just can't stand him. A year ago I thought all the informal rules were stupid, but they work. This site is largely self-policing. The game threads are astonishingly restrained even though we all vent sometimes and the post game stuff is often far-ranging and insightful.

BDM almost always called Francona Francoma. Every loss could somehow be attributed to something he did. Universal applause when his contract was not renewed. Valentine lost BDM in spring training, but they were probably right.

Sale tomorrow. Sox are still very much in charge of their own destiny.

Agree. He gets September and October. Nothing beyond that should be guaranteed. We lost Ortiz which is no ones fault. But DD brought in some pretty good reinforcements and dumped Pablo. I don't like the hitting, but DD can't fix everything especially if the salary cap is a factor. I blame him for Price so far, but also think that could have been better than it has so far. Devers and Beni were not traded away a real plus.

If the Sox lose the ALDS because of bonehead plays, you will not see me defending Farrell.

I agree. More than that I believe the manager goes when the FO believes the team has underperformed in their judgment. That's usually because of wins and losses but not always.

"near totally void of any basic fundamental skills, and many of our losses can be tied to bonehead plays on defense, the base paths and elsewhere" is in my opinion unsupportable, especially the "tied to many of our losses" part. As I have now said ad nauseum, to me the dominant fundamentals of baseball are hitting and pitching, and not a single player on this team can say he has not been coached on those fundamentals, not only here, but all the way back to age 10 or whenever. But coaching don't always produce the desired outcome because those two skills depend so heavily on the individual's innate skill and determination to improve. Defense is a fundamental, I certainly agree, but frankly don't see the lack of coaching. Baseball to me is unique among major American team sports in that it requires an extensive apprenticeship and several levels of professional competition before even getting to the majors. That especially applies to hitting and pitching, but also to defense. And baserunning. MLB teams are also unique in playing 162 games a year, and before every single one of those games hitting and defensive skills are practiced and practiced. Pitchers have to be careful of how much they pitch before games and in between games, but it's a certainty those sessions are carefully monitored and coached--to say nothing of video replays. No other major team sports practices remotely as much as MLB. There is no way, no how these players are not told, coached, instructed, videotaped, etc in those three fundamentals to a degree that boggles the mind. In fact, my own theory is that lapses occur in part because the season is so darn long and the games so interminable. You can normally show every single play in a single game--but not all of the pitches-- in about 10 minutes, but it lasts 3.5 hours or so on average, and that time is dominated by the kabuki dances of pitcher and hitter mixed in with periodic meetings with catcher, coach, manager, and the odd infielder--all of whom have no interest in speeding up the game.

Absolutely. Tanaka gets tons of credit, and so does Sabathia Thurs night. Heck, so does Fister last night. Good pitching usually trumps good hitting. But I'm talking about 7 out of 8 games and find it hard to believe we only got to 1 of the 8 starters when the 5 of the 7 bad hitting games were against the Orioles and Jays who are not know for their great pitching. I commend you for your optimism on the hitting getting better. Last night I shared it. Now I'm not so sure.

Now why is that? Could it be that, while managers do have an important role in any game/season, baseball, far more than other team sports, depends more on the players and that the defining characteristic of a baseball game is the mano a mano confrontation between pitcher and hitter?

This is now the 8th game in a row--with last night being a fantastic and much needed exception--that the Sox hitters have been unable to get to the opposing starters. In the last 2 Orioles game we scored 1 run total. In the three Jays games, all wins, 1 run each against their three starters. Game 1 in NYC, 1 against Sabathia. Today 1 off of Tanaka. While I defend Farrell on not bringing in Workman sooner today, I don't strenuously object to the naysayers. My point is, even the "right" decision wasn't going to fix the fact that our 1 run today in 8 innings is off of a wild pitch--to Mookie, whom Tanaka owns. Yes, Nunez doubled, but that was a lucky run. We have pretty good pitching, but they can't win for us if the lineup doesn't do their part. You remember that excruciating final 2-1 loss to the Orioles when the Sox left 25 on base? Well, now we don't even do that. Tonight we left 6 on base. 0-4 with RISP of course.