Maxbialystock

Complete agree. I am hard on Pom but agree the rotation is murky after Sale. Hell, it was worse than murky last year in the ALDS when we had the $30M man Price and the Cy Young winner Porcello bomb in the first two games--I mean just handed those games over to the Guardians. I have seen just two starters--Sale and Fister--actually work on their pitching to make it better. I have seen nothing like that from Pom or from ERod (except maybe for lately). I like Price, and he definitely has good stuff, but I'm not sure he works hard at his tradecraft.

I have been very specific about what I don't like, but I am also willing to acknowledge his numbers--WAR or ERA--say he has had a good year. Frankly, I think he has been lucky in the same way Sale has been unlucky. Sale, in case you are unaware, is five months younger than Pom but is the consummate professional who has worked hard at this craft and at being a complete pitcher. He is great on grounders to the right. He fields his position well. He has a terrific fastball, but also a good slider and good changeup. This year he has worked hard on staying low in the strike zone. He takes nothing for granted despite his great talent.

My gripe with Pom goes back quite a ways. The lousy start only confirmed what I have long thought. He doesn't routinely cover 1b on grounders to the right. He is a lefty who normally faces 6 of 9, 7 of 9, or even 8 of 9 righty bats and does not have a changeup. He has a good knuckle curve, but does not spot it well. He is more accurate with his so-so fastball, but also does not normally throw it for strikes in the bottom part of the zone. He has 16 quality starts in 31 starts largely because getting to 6 innings is a struggle for him because he wisely (I'm serious) uses a lot of pitches to get through an inning. He has to pitch carefully because he does not have great stuff and because he does not really have great control. As I said to moonslav, the fact that Pom remains our #2 starter is more a commentary on the fact that Price has been on the DL so much, Porcello has had a terrible year (after getting the Cy Young), and ERod, while he has good stuff, has struggled with command of his pitches, especially in the early innings.

Yeah, but none of them ever managed in the all American girls professional baseball league. Plus mays and Aaron never played for the Sox. Wise up.

Nice post. And bosoxmal certainly deserves it.

Not me. I just don't like Pom. Bullpen was great again. Lineup got it down to 1 run. I'm admittedly worried about Betts wrist, however.

I have to say that Holt is actually a pretty good hitter when the pitcher can't throw strikes. Seriously. It's those darn strikes that cause the problem. But he is just a young kid--barely a year older than that other great youngster Pomeranz--and, you know, is just happy to be here and wants to get better.

Big kid? He's 28 years old and this is his 7th season in MLB to say nothing of his minor league experience. And he still doesn't cover 1b on grounder to the right and he is still without a changeup in a veritable universe of righty batters to face.

Too true. Season to date, Pom has unquestionably been our second best starter. This to me, however, is a commentary on Price's injury, Porcello's absolute stinkeroo of a season, and ERod's immaturity in not working harder on commanding his pitches (he overall has good stuff). May I also say you alone have been saying the Sox will win this game. Well done even though we are still 1 down.

Actually, I've never liked him for the reasons stated, most of which center around his lack of professionalism, beginning with his disdain for covering 1b on grounders hit to the right--which he showed again tonight. He is a lefty with no changeup. He does not keep the ball low. In 32 starts this year, he has 16 quality starts, which is half the time. This is mostly because he has hard time getting to 6 innings. In September, for example, he has 5 starts and 25 innings. comparing Pom to Sale is a travesty because Sale is everything Pom is not, including his willingness to make adjustments which I have never, ever seen Pom do. He just throws the same old s*** and hopes his knuckle curve will get him thru. Sale always covers 1b on grounders to the right and in fact tries to field his position. Pom can't be bothered and in fact throws in a manner which routinely has him finishing toward 3b.

Incredibly stupid at bat by JBJ. 6 straight sliders low and away with one an actual strike, but he just couldn't resist swinging.

Pom is a lefty who has no changeup and over relies on a weak ass fast ball. He has a good knuckle curve, but can't keep it low. He does not believe in covering first bast on grounders to the right side even though he sometimes does it. He is easily the worst pitcher I have ever seen with an ERA of 3.15 this late in the season.

Did I forget to mention that normally, usually Pom is not good at keeping the ball low, which has been very much in evidence tonight.

moonslav likes to comment on weak fundamentals but has never to my knowledge gone after Pom, who to me represents the polar opposite of Sale, who is professional in every way. I can never forgive a pitcher who can't be bothered to cover first base on grounders to the right. I am continually astonished he has been pitching this long and doesn't have a usable changeup unlike very other starting lefty in MLB. I give him credit in some games for having decent command of two pitches he does have, but would comment that even then he needs a lot pitches to get thru an inning.

ABsolutely right.

Tonight Pom is revealing his unprofessional side. First and foremost, he made absolutely no effort on that ball to the right side that was in fact a grounder. Second, he has no changeup even though he is a lefty sure to face 75% righty batters. Third, he can't spot his knuckle curve very well, which means batters can sit on the slow motion fast ball of his. He has to be the worst starter I've ever seen with a 3.15 ERA this late in the season. And he right now is our #2 starter in the playoffs. Lots of luck with that.

POm was lucky to give up just the 1 run because all he threw for strikes was that weak ass fastball.

wrong thread.

Gotta like Pom as the starter, especially with this lineup against a lefty starter-- 1 Bogie SS 2 Nunez DH !!!!!!! 3 Betts RF 4 Ramirez 1B 5 Vazquez C 6 Devers 3B 7 Young LF 8 Marrero 2B 9 JBJ CF

Dorothy yearned to return to Kansas. I lived their (eastern side, close to KC) 3 times. Nice state. Beginning of the Sante Fe Trail. Geometric center of the USA (not including Hawaii or Alaska). Lots of wheat. Not sure I see it as baseball country. The Kansas City Chiefs and Royals, FWIW, are both based in Kansas City, MO.

You are never unfriendly. I just like illinoisredsox's perspective and the notion that,once that throw went amuck, the normal procedure for rundowns between 1b and 2b just might have left home plate uncovered. I just don't know. Try this on for size-- Pedroia was running toward 1b and maybe should have been the guy covering home. He was the mostly experienced and probably the headiest player on the field. But he never made a move after the bad throw. Workman was the guy trying to catch the ball and was no doubt thinking about retrieving it. He made no other move. Plus he's a pitcher and not the best guy to race home. Vazquez hustled to back up 1b which it turned out was a good idea. He may have been the one who actually retrieved the ball. In the final shot he was running toward home plate, as were Bogie and Devers. Moreland was somewhere near 2b. Covering home was not his responsibility I think. Devers had to cover 3b, but still tried to race Hamilton home. Bogie was also near 2b but he was supposed to be the guy Workman threw to if the rundown continued. But he also saw the bad throw and probably should have been the guy going home, which he did but belatedly. I would suggest that he has not had to react that way very often in his young professional career and maybe never--running from 2b to home to cover home plate. Remember, when the bad throw was made, Hamilton was actually headed back to 1b, then quickly reversed. All in all, I would say the worst mental mistake had to be made by Pedroia. He saw the bad throw and was in the best position to cover home plate because he could see the catcher retrieving the ball. But he didn't, maybe because it was not part of the normal routine of a rundown between 1b and 2b.

Well put. The problem was execution on the rundown, which led to an errant throw by Pedey of all people. Thereafter, as you point out, guys needed to figure out where to go or be because it wasn't part of the rundown playbook. Funny no one mentions that the Reds let Betts score from 2b on a infield single, with no errors committed, because they too became absorbed in getting Devers out at 1b and just kind of forgot about Betts. Hamilton like Betts is fast and simply capitalized on a misplay by Pedey followed by reactions which had to go outside the usual rundown playbook. The carping critics are using 20-20 hindsight.

Guys have played with a lot of grit this year, no question. I am anti-Stanton as well, plus I think several will bounce back next year. Meanwhile they have been fun to watch especially now that the have a good shot at 95 wins this year. If I were to single out players, it would probably be Sale, Betts, and Kimbrel in that order. Sale for his stunning ability and numbers, but also because he is a complete player and willing to make adjustments in his pitching. Betts because in a down year he still leads the Sox in hits, total bases, runs, OPS, rbi's, dingers, SB's, you name it. Kimbrel because he has mostly been lights out when closing out a game.

You are correct. Sale did not pitch against the Astros in June.

I consider it unlikely as well, but stated it simply because of the slim possibility that the October 1 game might determine who has home field advantage for the ALDS--us or the Astros. I like the home field advantage, but don't think it is as important as leading with Sale in game 1 on October 5. Illinoisredsox thinks Sale could start October 1 and maybe go 2 or 3 innings as a tune up for October 5, but I would prefer the Astros seeing him for the first time since mid-June.