Maxbialystock

That lineup worked against Manaea--way, way better than a month ago when he threw the no-hitter.

Of course he is, and by a good margin. But the whole idea of WAR is to measure the whole player. That's why I went through that exercise arguing that the average lineup player's bat is five times as important as his glove. By and large Cora has shown a willingness to play JBJ despite the weak hitting, but lately not so much because the bottom third of the lineup is struggling and the Sox aren't winning as much.

I'm arguing against 20-20 hindsight. On general principles, I want a hitter to hit the ball, preferably hard, which is close to what Swihart did in the 4th after Bogie walked and Nunez--wait for it--hit a grounder that got thru for a single to RF. Swihart's problem was he hit his grounder right to the SS.

His WAR is currently -.4, 2d worst in MLB among starting centerfielders.

Yup. It's why Ortiz liked having Manny Ramirez in the lineup--in his words, so he could get "a pitch to hit."

There are I think zero managers anywhere who will tell or want a batter to strike out, even with men on first and second and less than two outs. That's why NL managers want their pitchers to learn hot to bunt--to do something useful besides K with men on base.

Hanley was very good in 2016, OPS .866 and 111 rbi's, with Ortiz in the lineup. He was 32 then, 34 now, so my thought is you are probably right. Except for the baserunning gaffe--pause to watch what turned into a double when there were 2 outs--I think he has also played with enthusiasm.

Got it. When JBJ is in the lineup, the best thing he can do for his team at bat is to K. What a relief. We can stop complaining about those because JBJ is our best at denying GIDP's. What a guy.

You must mean me, so I'm delighted you put me on the same level as Alex Cora. Just so we know what we are arguing about, here again is what I wrote earlier. I think 80% of defense is the guy on the mound. This might explain why every MLB team without exception carries 12 pitchers on their 25 man rosters. That leaves 20% for the 9 guys, including the pitcher, defending against various flies, grounders, liners, bunts, etc. Divide 20% by 9 and you get a little over 2% of the defense depends on any given defender. The offense depends on the 9 guys in the lineup--100%. Divide that by 9 and you get something over 10% for each guy in the lineup. So a lineup player contributes 10% to the offense and 2% to the defense, so his bat is 5 times as important as his glove. You can probably make a case that some fielders, especially very good ones, are contributing more than 2%. In JBJ's case, maybe it's 3%, but I doubt seriously it's more than 4% because outfielders don't have as many total chances as infielders and catchers have more than anyone else. So best case for JBJ is that his bat is 2.5 times as important as his glove. This could explain why, season to date, he has played in the second most games of anyone on the team. Cora likes him in CF (occasionally RF, but not often). As for last night, JBJ in CF could have made that grab that Beni just missed. Beni is actually faster afoot--this is not arguable--and he had to come a long way from right center field (batter was a lefty) to left centerfield. We can assume JBJ would have gotten a better jump on the ball, but I'm not so sure about the better route. The real question is how much closer to the wall--the ball did hit it on the fly--was JBJ willing to go vs. Beni because he clearly slowed a little when he got close and in fact ran into the green monster, but not hard into it. Even assuming JBJ makes the grab, it saves one run. The score is still 5-5. So it's really hard for me to see how that missed grab cost the Sox the game. It did happen in the 4th inning, not the 8th or 9th. Me, I blame Porcello for having his 2d straight lousy start and for letting a really weak hitter like Fowler hit one off the wall in left center field. As for the lineup, Cora was clearly loading up with righty bats. The two lefties in the lineup, Beni and Devers, both scored and knocked in runs. Swihart was the only righty bat left on the bench besides Vazquez--Moreland and Holt are both lefty hitters. Is if fair for me to point out that this stupid, no good manager put in a lineup that scored 4 runs off the exact same pitcher who pitched a no-hitter against the Sox the last time he faced them? It seems to me you have a really weak case on the lineup because this one worked way better than I expected. The guy who didn't work was Porcello. I blame him and no one else. I don't even blame Smith because the bullpen went 3 innings and gave up just 1 run and were far better than Porcello.

Nonsense. Our problem last night was Porcello and nothing but Porcello. That triple you mock was by a guy hitting under .200 and it was into deep left centerfield and in fact hit the dadgum wall.

Me too.

It’s a game thread. We all vent at some point.

A good thought. Thanks.

The rotation is back to being a problem after that great start. This is two straight rotten starts by Porcello. Pom was horrible last time and has a lousy ERA. Price is anything but consistent this year. ERod is up and down. That leaves Sale. To me it is criminal when the lineup gets 4 off of the same guy who no-hit us last time and who is having a good year--and have Porcello get hammered the way he was. We don't need more JBJ or more Swihart or more whoever to improve this team. We need better starts from the rotation.

Really nice swing by Swihart. Simple fact is that Porcello gave up 5 runs and the bullpen one more. The lineup scored 4 off of Manaea, which should have been enough.

Who really gives a s*** whether Swihart starts as catcher when the Sox to date are tied for the best record in MLB? The Sox know his catching strengths and weaknesses far better than any of us.

The offense stinks? The offense stinks?????? They just got 3 runs off of the same guy who pitched a no-hitter the last time they faced him. It's the starting pitcher who stinks, pure and simple. Correction, the stinking offense has scored 4 runs of Manaea. You know very little about this team.

Funny thing, but I don't think I've seen Porcello throw a lot of fast pitches tonight. Yet a guy hit .153 hits a slider off the left center field wall. I have to wonder if Porcello is telegraphing his pitches because this is now two games in a row he has been pummeled after being our best starter this year. This year, unlike last year, he has been good at keeping the ball low and avoiding fat pitches.

BS. He started more games at catcher in 2014 than anyone else. This year, I agree, but where is it written that a sub, a utility guy, is supposed to play regularly on any team? Consider this simple rule. When a team is tied for the best freaking record in MLB while not playing one particularly guy regularly, maybe it's good idea to keep doing that.

I'm not at all sure JBJ is a sure bet to catch a fly that reached the wall in left centerfield, especially when Beni was positioned why the heck over in right center field. Plus JBJ can't hit lefties this season, especially this lefty. The real problem isn't the lineup anyway. It's the starting pitcher, which is plain as plain can be.

You betcha, red ryder.

Thanks, Thunder. I'm pretty sure this is Swihart's third start and all of them have been as the DH. To me this is pretty strong evidence that Cora and the coaching staff don't think that much of his defense in LF, at 3B, or at C. Also interesting that Devers is batting 8th. Last year I argued that was his best spot, but I don't think so this year. I like him 5th or 6th, but only if he is hitting. It's the middle of May and the Sox are already in the thick of a pennant race or at least a contest with the Yankees for the best record in MLB. How sweet is that? The Yankees are at the Nationals tonight and the Washington Post's Dave Shenein had a piece today about how incredible the Yankees are, just like the 1996-2000 model. Oh, and the brilliance of Cash, of course.

Agree on all, especially the pitching. I had my doubts, but regained confidence after the first two losses in Yankee Stadium. ERod was way better than I expected, and it wasn't luck. Porcello was awful for him, but the lineup got us that 6-5 lead going into the 8th when the wheels came off the bullpen. Losses are never good, but some are definitely better than others. Now I still get stuff to gripe about (Pom yesterday), but do see what you and others like cp176 see. Toronto ain't half bad and the Sox darn near swept them. Now it's the A's at our place against Porcello, ERod, and Sale: time to rectify losing 2 of 3 in Oakland 3 or so weeks ago.

Your point was still well taken. In the game thread I kept backing Pom, especially against jacksonianmarch, right up until the wheels came off in the 5th. I have been anti-Pom most of the time, but moonslav has made a good case for being patient. Plus he had a really good year in 2017. For the life of me, though, I don't see how he does it. We have four lefty starters on this team and three of them use their changeup, but not this guy. On the other hand, he went six pretty solid innings against the Yankees. He's now had 5 starts and two were quality, barely. His WAR is .2, and Velazquez's is 1.0, and that to me says a whole lot especially when Velazquez has pitched more innings than Pom.

Agree. But the bullpen done good--four of them, including Kelly with the save.