Maxbialystock

Kimbrel got a lucky 9th inning save? My goodness, the guy is paid a king's ransom to do one thing and one thing only--to close. Heck, he normally won't even close unless it's the 9th inning. And he had a 3 run lead. And he already had 1 save in the ALDS. His ERA for the season is 2.74 (1.91 for his career), and he has 333 saves. And he was lucky? I'm not saying he was perfect. Far from it. He started by walking Judge on 4 pitches although I do have a no doubt sniveling excuse for that. Throughout the inning he seemed to me to be consciously throwing to spots to avoid home runs, precisely what everyone but Price was trying to do and by and large succeeding. Did you know the Yankees set the MLB record for dingers this year? Do you know how many they hit in the two ALDS games played in their bandbox of a stadium? Zero. Anyway, he walked a guy and gave up a single. Then he struck out Stanton, the guy the Yankees are paying a lot just to hit dingers. That was luck??? Then a walk--bad, granted--and an HBP, even worse. But then, still with the bases loaded, he got two more outs--one a sac fly and one a weak grounder to 3B. Where is the luck in that? As I already said once on this thread, the lucky ones in the 9th inning were the Yankees. They got a great big rally--one that had every single Yankee fan standing up and shouting and clapping-- off of one little single, a grounder that got thru to RF. That's it--the only hit in the entire rally. And they darn near kept the rally going with a weak grounder to 3B. They got the two walks and the HBP (off a knuckle curve) in part because Kimbrel didn't have good command and in part because he wanted to keep anything hit in the park--and in that he succeeded as the entire Sox did in the two games at Yankee Mini-Stadium.

I have said repeatedly that yes, Kimbrel was to a degree horrible in the 9th which led to those 2 runs. He also reduced the margin in game 1 to 1 run when he gave up the dinger (on a knuckle curve) to Judge. But then he struck the next 3 guys for the save. Where you and I part company is that you would have had 2 or 3 guys warming up when Kimbrel took the mound--which would of course have told him you don't trust him and actually expect him to fail, which is a little weird for your ASG closer and completely different from the way Cora had managed the game up to that point. No one was warming up when Porcello came out to pitch the 5th, nor Barnes in the 6th, nor Brasier in the 7th, nor Sale in the 8th. But come the 9th, it's time to castrate your actual closer even though he goes out there with a 3 run lead. Would you seriously have done that? You also never made it clear when exactly you would have pulled Kimbrel, nor who you would have sent in. In fact, it reads as though you might have sent all 2 or 3 relievers out to the mound together--you know strength in numbers. As I have tried to point out, when to pull Kimbrel--if ever--was bound to be tricky because he is the closer and he had that 3 run lead. Would you have pulled him after the first two got on base? If so, you are forgetting Kimbrel struck the next guy out. So, based on what actually happened, we know pulling Kimbrel then would have been wrong. How about after the next guy walked to load the bases? Now you are getting into a really high pressure situation. The Yankees fans were going nuts, absolutely nuts, and doing everything they could to bother Kimbrel. Since you never named who you would actually send in, I'm going to guess that you have no clue who you could be sure could get 2 outs with the bases loaded. And guess what? I don't have a clue either. That's why I'm happy they pay Cora to make those decisions. And may I add that throughout the 9th inning he looked to me to be calm, confident, and, best of all, decisive because he--unlike you and me--was confident he already had the best man on the mound. I am more than happy to admit that Kimbrel in fact hit the next Yankee, bringing home a run (score now 4-2) and leaving the bases loaded. Not good. But then he got the next two guys out to get the save and clinch the ALDS. Right guy in the right place at the right time despite the horrible start to the inning.

Dead right about the "second guessing." I didn't defend Cora Tuesday night on guess work, but on hard facts. Second guessing is fun, but in the end it's just guessing. And, yes, I am prone to defend managers--although I have excoriated Cora at least once (when he left Wright in and he gave up 10 runs back in June)--because they know a lot more about the game and the players than any of us.

We weren't nearly as lucky as the dadgum Yankees, who had a huge 9th inning rally based on 1 single, 2 walks, and a HBP. That's lucky. the sac fly was not lucky. But that final grounder by Torres was incredibly lucky--a typical Yankee rally, a hit from a weak grounder. But it was definitely playable because Nunez did not have to barehand it. His throw was therefore pretty balanced but nevertheless off. Even then it was close enough to catch in the air.

Can’t disagree with that. Brasier, Barnes, and Sale were terrific, and Kimbrel’s control issues put the game in jeopardy. All true. But the issue is whether leaving Kimbrel in was the right decision. I say it was and have yet to see any hard evidence that it was not. My favorite example of soft evidence is whether Cora had enough guys warming up in the bullpen. Someone needs to cite an example of how guys warming up in the bullpen changed the outcome of a game simply by warming up.

Really? Who got 3 outs and the save? The tooth Fairy? At no point in last nights game was Cora indecisive and he sure as heck was never a spectator. His decision was to leave Kimbrel in the game, and events showed it was the right decision. You guys are all projecting what might have happened and ignoring what did happen. Please get back to me when you have hard fact, some evidence.

Meh. I don't want a "sense of urgency," but I do want a manager who makes good decisions in a timely manner. Take last night, for example. Porcello went 5 innings and only threw 68 pitches while giving up just 1 run. Nevertheless, Cora brought in Brasier and then Barnes who covered the 6th and 7th innings while keeping that 4-1 lead. For the 8th Cora brought in Sale which cause a huge uproar on talksox. The temerity! Our ace who would also have to start in two days if we lost relieving! But it worked like a charm and gave Sale a little extra confidence at the same time. That was also a superb example of thinking outside the box despite the caterwauling on talksox. Finally the 9th, which has been Kimbrel's inning almost the entire season when the Sox have a lead of 3 runs or less. It's what he lives for because we've seen it time and time again. As far as I can tell from Kimbrel's game log, Cora pulled him just one time in the 9th--on Sep 26 against the Orioles when they had a good lead. Kimbrel stunk. He walked 3 and hit 1--sound familiar? Cora then brought in Scott who liberated all three Orioles on the bases so that Kimbrell was charged with 4 runs. The most runs Kimbrel has given up in any other game this season is 2. Game 2, the loss at Fenway when Price went sour. Cora pulled him the 2d inning--the 2d inning! That sure sounds like a manager who isn't afraid to make a decision or use his bullpen. And he sent in a good guy, Brasier, who unfortunately--with men on base--immediately gave up a hard single which brought in at least 1 more run. I would argue: good, timely move but with a poor result. To me the inescapable conclusions from the above are: 1. Cora is constantly evaluating what's going on and always ready to make an informed decision in a timely manner. 2. He sure as heck isn't afraid to use his bullpen, even one as problematical as this one is. 3. He absolutely, positively doesn't want to give any game away. Thus pulling Price in the 2d and last night sending Sale out to pitch the 8th. 4. He knows Kimbrel and the rest of the bullpen way, way, way better than you do. Last night he made a timely judgment call that Kimbrel in trouble but still in the game was still better than bringing someone else in--at any point in last night's 9th inning. 5. He has a feel for the game that leads to a very high percentage of good decisions that often produce results. And that of course is exactly what happened last night.

If you weren't really worried, you weren't paying attention.

All due respect to dannycater, but no way, no how can a fault Cora for the 9th last night. Kimbrel was the right guy despite the 2 walks and the HBP. The first runner was a 4 ball K to Judge, horrible, but it was Judge; 2d runner was Gregorious with a seeing eye single to the right, Judge to 2B; but then he K's Stanton for out 1; then another BB but on a 3-2 count to Voit; then the HBP on a knuckle ball in the dirt that kicked left, scoring 1 run; then out #2 on a sac fly to LF, runner on 2B not advancing, score now 4-3 but 2 outs and no one on 3B; finally the soft ground out to Nunez who made a great play and Pearce an even greater one. Recalling that sequence again convinces me Cora had good reason to stay with Kimbrel, who was not panicking but did struggle with control. More importantly, I honestly believe no one else in the bullpen could have gone out there and done better once the bases were loaded with 1 out and the score 4-2. In fact, Kimbrel got the next 2 guys out. But pick another point in the sequence, say, men on 1st and 2d and no one out. Kimbrel actually struck the next guy out, so no way a new guy would have done that better. Now comes the walk on a 3-2 count to load the bases, lead still 4-2. Here I would argue any other Sox pitcher coming in would have melted like the wicked witch of the west. Ditto after Walker got the HBP, scoring a run and leaving the bases loaded with 1 out. And this. I don't know about you, but at home I was in a complete panic. But Cora wasn't. He stayed cool while assessing the situation and made a conscious choice based on what he knows about Kimbrel, the bullpen, and the flow of the game. I say this because, had Kimbrel given up a dinger at some point--or even if Torres grounder had resulted in a Nunez throwing error and the ball going to RF and allowing 2 runners to score and the Yankees to in--I would still be arguing I was and am happy with Cora's decisions. I think the guy really has a feel for the game and for this team that none of us comes close to having. And this. Way back in June in what became Wright's last start, he got killed and gave up 10 runs. I spent the next 3 or 4 days excoriating Cora for leaving Wright in. It made no difference that Sox won that one, I think 14-11 or something. Ever since then, however, I have been reluctant to second guess Cora. And there is no doubt in my mind he managed this ALDS brilliantly despite hitting issues (bottom of the lineup) and a problem bullpen.

That's a pretty important (and sensible) cautionary note at the end. That's where I start from, but the ALDS has persuaded me not to under value our own team. We had 3 of 4 solid starts vs. the full-up and hot Yankees lineup, and two of them were in their bandbox. That's a rotation. Almost as impressive was knocking out both Happ and Severino. Less impressive was not scoring after the 3d inning in game 1 and not after the 4th last night--on top of only scoring 2 in game 2. I am hopeful the bottom 4 of our lineup will be OK and would like to see more of Holt. I suspect that Leon, however, will catch at least one game, Sale's, and maybe two, also Price's. Yes, horrible at bats, but Sale pitching well is worth almost any hole in the lineup. I don't think our defense is all that great, but boy it looked pretty darn good in the ALDS. That one bad throw by Nunez followed by another that actually got an out thanks to Kinsler. Nothing all that spectacular in the outfield except that incredible throw by Betts, I think in game 1, that darn near got a Yankee tagging up after a fly out down the right field line (foul?). Wow. Kinsler also made a nifty stop of a hot liner/grounder to his left that was not luck. And the bullpen was OK, considering. The Yankees bullpen was better, but the Sox were always able to keep whatever lead they got off three Yankee starters.

Love iortiz's enthusiasm for the ALCS. But I'd like to go back to last night for a moment and without starting a new thread. That rally was almost entirely Kimbrel's creation: he gave up 2 BB's, 1 HBP, and a single to score the Yankees 1st run. With the bases loaded and 1 out, he got the catcher to fly out deep to LF, making the score 4-3 with men on 1st and 2d and 2 outs. Then Torres hit that weak grounder, which Nunez swept in to field cleanly and throw quickly to 1B. About the time the ball arrived the Yankees had one guy around 3b and the other at 2B. If that throw at that angle gets past Pearce to his right, it ends up in RF and there's a good chance the Yankees with the game 5-4. Of course, I think it would have been a travesty if that had happened, but it almost did, which would have meant game 5 after today off. I say travesty because there is no doubt in my mind that the better team won.

Fascinating discussion about the Yankees lineup, which I think was pretty good. The best insight I've read was in the today's NY Times, who said the problem was the team batting average of .249. They went on to say that batting average is passe and usually disregarded but nevertheless underscores a fundamental weakness in the Yankees offense. They then said the Sox pitchers stayed focused on keeping the Yankees lineup "inside the park," which worked beautifully in every game but game 2. The problem now for the Sox is that the Astros offense beat the Guardians pitching like a drum. In 3 games, 8 dingers, 21 runs, Avg .327, and OPS 1.037--way, way better than the Yankees' 6 dingers in 5 games (including Oakland), .219 Avg, and .669 OPS. Plus they have better pitching and are the defending WS champs. About the Sox home field advantage. Maybe it isn't. The Astros were great on the road this year, 57-24 vs. our 51-30--and they took 2 of 3 at Fenway Park a month ago. They also took 2 of 3 in Houston.

See Thunder's comment. You are probably right, but the media without exception slobbered over your Yankees all season long.

I was one of the pessimists during the ALDS and so have no great claim to insight. That said, the Sox beat the 100 wins Yankees at their best even though Happ, Severino, and Sabathia weren't at theirs. And they did it with starting pitching, timely hitting, and just enough bullpen. And the better manager, beyond question. ALCS will be 2017 ALDS redux--when the Astros took 3 of 4 with Sale losing twice, Pom once, and the bullpen, mostly Price (of all people), getting the one decisive win. The Sox lost game 5, but it was 5-4, and in that game Sale gave up 2 in relief and Kimbrel 1 in relief. My point is, this year's Sox, despite concerns again about our bullpen, is a lot better than last year's. When your rotation gets three good starts, two of them in NY, against the Yankees, you ain't pushovers. But neither are the Astros, who have the best pitching in MLB. Right now, I would call the ALCS a toss-up.

I think you have the seeing problem. Kimbrel stunk but doesn’t always and does need that knuckle curve to complement his hittable fastball. Beni had a bad night, but so did Mookie. Yes, the Yankees have a terrific bullpen. This surprises you? And Cora is an idiot for using his ace closer with a 3 run lead and not his ace starter?

Indeed.

Agree Leon is good, but Cora was right to stay with Vazquez as events proved. You didn’t say Cora was dumb, but certainly implied it when he did not pinch hit for Vazquez. Not so?

Exactly the thing to do.

Jacksonianmarch is excellent.

Are you kidding? Talksox wanted to lynch him for letting Sale go anywhere near that mound.

Ask Cora. He’s the dummy according to you. Now that the game is over, did you count the number of wild pitches Vazquez prevented in the 9th?

No. Kimbrel is a great closer but tried hard to blow it tonight. He was by far the worst of four Sox relievers tonight but will expect a kings ransom to stick around.

FWIW, I think your hitting is fine, but your rotation is not.

If you check, I’m sure you will find that Cora never ever pinch hit for any catcher with a 3 run lead this year. Why? Because it’s just dumb.

Yeah. Poor Sale looked helpless out there without Leon. And tonight VaQuez had more hits than Beni and and Mookie combined.