Maxbialystock

Actually, I shouldn't complain. I'm only watching on TV--for free--and can change channels any time I want. But what about the loyal fans who paid top dollar to come to this ALCS game? They're watching Sox fold like a cheap tent and doing it in one the 3 or 4 worst ball parks in MLB (and by that I mean sightlines). I know the Astros have good pitching. The whole world knows. But 2 bare singles by the highest scoring team in MLB this years? If Verlander hadn't had that inexplicable cold spell, the Sox would be shut out with the 9th coming up.

No one's saying the Sox can't win a game, but many of us are saying this game is the pits. You disagree? You like Nunez at 3B? Our inability to hit? Workman? Sale going 4 big innings? The one good thing by the Sox tonight was when Cora pinch hit in the 5th for Leon. Moreland looked awful at the plate, but still got the walk.

Sadly, I agree with this. Horrible, horrible hitting. Both runs off Verlander were gifts. Sale struggled, but only gave up 2 and until the 9th (when Workman gave up the dinger on a really stupid fast ball right down the middle) the bullpen had gone 4 giving up 0 earned runs. Unfortunately, Nunez has yet to master the very difficult task of actually taking the ball out of his glove without looking at it and without dropping it. Just a miserable game by the lineup. A small criticism too of Cora--getting thrown out for complaining about something that in fact was not wrong and brought on by Beni's whining on the 3d strike when the entire known universe knew he deserved to K.

Sale has given up, what, 1 single? His problem has been control and now pitch count. He threw twice as many pitches in the first 3 innings as Verlander and will do very well to go 5 tonight. Verlander could go 9.

Nice K by Sale, great CS by Leon. Others said it before the game, but it is nuts to complain about his hitting when he is this good behind the plate.

1 out in the 3d and he's already at 63 pitches.

Wrong. He did look very good in the 1st when he actually threw strikes. When did you develop the theory that you can keep walking and hitting guys and still be doing fine? Sale only gave up that single in the 2d, but it followed two walks and an HBP. He is struggling.

A lot of not good things so far. Great 1st by Sale who had his slider and changeup working and kept the fastball away from the center of the zone. But then Bogie had two straight fastballs right down the middle and hit into a double play. Awful. Then Sale gives up 2 walks, an HBP, and a single drive in 2 in the 2d, followed by Verlander, now with his control back, makes the bottom of our order look like, well the bottom of our order. Now another walk by Sale after throwing behind the hitter. Awful. If he is cold, why is he in short sleeves when no one else in MLB does that in cold weather?

Come on. You know better than that. The Yankees did set the MLB record for dingers, but for any given at bat the odds still greatly favor the pitcher not giving up one. Sanchez had 2 dingers in 18 at bats in the ALDS. Terrific. But even he had 9 to 1 odds. Plus the fact that the Yankees got zero dingers in the Bronx. And the fieldable grounder by Torres was what Kombrel wanted. It just turned out to be so weak it was a tough but by no means impossible play. Nunez did not have to barehand it. Had Torres been safe, the score would still have been 4-3. You want lucky? How about Vazquez opposite field dinger in the 4th? Sabathia would tell you the Sox got really lucky with that home plate umpire. Oh, don’t forget the Yankees hitting no dingers the final two games. Given how Sale struggled in September, he was incredibly lucky to go 5.2 innings in game 1. But Kimbrel getting a save with a 3 run lead? The odds had to be very much in his favor. It’s a sad truth we are all going to have to live with—Cora was not an idiot for leaving Kinsler in there.

Sox have the best record, 108 wins, but are underdogs in the ALDS and ALCS. Fine with me. Worthy adversaries. Adds to the anticipation, especially for tonight. Ain’t it great?

Scaled back is likely and not necessarily bad if the slider and changeup are working.

And Cora has already shown an affinity for the early hook. Price left in the 2d inning in game 2.

I'm with Kimmi: go, Price! Horrible postseason record, but it can't go on forever. I do hope he learned something from Sale's start vs. the Yankees because Price has a pretty good changeup, slider, and, I think curve, but I think he uses his fastball and cut fastball too much. My impression of Sale in game 1 of the ALDS is that the first inning showed him not to rely in his fastball. Subsequently, he seemed to me to throw most of his fastballs out of the zone, almost as waste pitches. The guy is a seasoned pro who has had a very good season and the second highest WAR on the team after Sale. He leads the Sox in quality starts. A month ago he went 6.1 vs. the Astros at Fenway and gave up 2 runs. So we are not talking about a miracle here, only the art of the possible, maybe even probable.

Glad you're still here. Sorry about the ALDS because I still think the Yankees had a heckuva team this year--just not, in this one series, the best rotation. The NY Times postmortem picked team batting average (.249) as the culprit and said that the Sox pitchers tried very hard to keep the Yankees hits "in the park," which is actually what happened in the two home losses--zero dingers in games 3 and 4. The Yankees have that great bullpen, but they couldn't overcome the damage done to the rotation in games 1, 3, and 4 when they collectively gave up 14 runs in 8 innings. Which school was yours? CWS two years running is pretty darn good. It's also, I think, a pretty darn good tournament--including the regionals--but gets little coverage (unlike the LLWS).

I rarely, probably never second guess GM decisions simply because I know so little about what's out there. As for managers, I believe in having a lucky manager.

Pretty darn good synopsis. More than that, a recipe for success. You put a lot of trust in Sale, but, my goodness, that is one determined and very professional pitcher. He loves that upper 90's fast ball, but against the Yankees he showed he can do well without it. Plus you recognize the Astros are solid.

Kimbrel got a lucky 9th inning save? My goodness, the guy is paid a king's ransom to do one thing and one thing only--to close. Heck, he normally won't even close unless it's the 9th inning. And he had a 3 run lead. And he already had 1 save in the ALDS. His ERA for the season is 2.74 (1.91 for his career), and he has 333 saves. And he was lucky? I'm not saying he was perfect. Far from it. He started by walking Judge on 4 pitches although I do have a no doubt sniveling excuse for that. Throughout the inning he seemed to me to be consciously throwing to spots to avoid home runs, precisely what everyone but Price was trying to do and by and large succeeding. Did you know the Yankees set the MLB record for dingers this year? Do you know how many they hit in the two ALDS games played in their bandbox of a stadium? Zero. Anyway, he walked a guy and gave up a single. Then he struck out Stanton, the guy the Yankees are paying a lot just to hit dingers. That was luck??? Then a walk--bad, granted--and an HBP, even worse. But then, still with the bases loaded, he got two more outs--one a sac fly and one a weak grounder to 3B. Where is the luck in that? As I already said once on this thread, the lucky ones in the 9th inning were the Yankees. They got a great big rally--one that had every single Yankee fan standing up and shouting and clapping-- off of one little single, a grounder that got thru to RF. That's it--the only hit in the entire rally. And they darn near kept the rally going with a weak grounder to 3B. They got the two walks and the HBP (off a knuckle curve) in part because Kimbrel didn't have good command and in part because he wanted to keep anything hit in the park--and in that he succeeded as the entire Sox did in the two games at Yankee Mini-Stadium.

I have said repeatedly that yes, Kimbrel was to a degree horrible in the 9th which led to those 2 runs. He also reduced the margin in game 1 to 1 run when he gave up the dinger (on a knuckle curve) to Judge. But then he struck the next 3 guys for the save. Where you and I part company is that you would have had 2 or 3 guys warming up when Kimbrel took the mound--which would of course have told him you don't trust him and actually expect him to fail, which is a little weird for your ASG closer and completely different from the way Cora had managed the game up to that point. No one was warming up when Porcello came out to pitch the 5th, nor Barnes in the 6th, nor Brasier in the 7th, nor Sale in the 8th. But come the 9th, it's time to castrate your actual closer even though he goes out there with a 3 run lead. Would you seriously have done that? You also never made it clear when exactly you would have pulled Kimbrel, nor who you would have sent in. In fact, it reads as though you might have sent all 2 or 3 relievers out to the mound together--you know strength in numbers. As I have tried to point out, when to pull Kimbrel--if ever--was bound to be tricky because he is the closer and he had that 3 run lead. Would you have pulled him after the first two got on base? If so, you are forgetting Kimbrel struck the next guy out. So, based on what actually happened, we know pulling Kimbrel then would have been wrong. How about after the next guy walked to load the bases? Now you are getting into a really high pressure situation. The Yankees fans were going nuts, absolutely nuts, and doing everything they could to bother Kimbrel. Since you never named who you would actually send in, I'm going to guess that you have no clue who you could be sure could get 2 outs with the bases loaded. And guess what? I don't have a clue either. That's why I'm happy they pay Cora to make those decisions. And may I add that throughout the 9th inning he looked to me to be calm, confident, and, best of all, decisive because he--unlike you and me--was confident he already had the best man on the mound. I am more than happy to admit that Kimbrel in fact hit the next Yankee, bringing home a run (score now 4-2) and leaving the bases loaded. Not good. But then he got the next two guys out to get the save and clinch the ALDS. Right guy in the right place at the right time despite the horrible start to the inning.

Dead right about the "second guessing." I didn't defend Cora Tuesday night on guess work, but on hard facts. Second guessing is fun, but in the end it's just guessing. And, yes, I am prone to defend managers--although I have excoriated Cora at least once (when he left Wright in and he gave up 10 runs back in June)--because they know a lot more about the game and the players than any of us.

We weren't nearly as lucky as the dadgum Yankees, who had a huge 9th inning rally based on 1 single, 2 walks, and a HBP. That's lucky. the sac fly was not lucky. But that final grounder by Torres was incredibly lucky--a typical Yankee rally, a hit from a weak grounder. But it was definitely playable because Nunez did not have to barehand it. His throw was therefore pretty balanced but nevertheless off. Even then it was close enough to catch in the air.

Can’t disagree with that. Brasier, Barnes, and Sale were terrific, and Kimbrel’s control issues put the game in jeopardy. All true. But the issue is whether leaving Kimbrel in was the right decision. I say it was and have yet to see any hard evidence that it was not. My favorite example of soft evidence is whether Cora had enough guys warming up in the bullpen. Someone needs to cite an example of how guys warming up in the bullpen changed the outcome of a game simply by warming up.

Really? Who got 3 outs and the save? The tooth Fairy? At no point in last nights game was Cora indecisive and he sure as heck was never a spectator. His decision was to leave Kimbrel in the game, and events showed it was the right decision. You guys are all projecting what might have happened and ignoring what did happen. Please get back to me when you have hard fact, some evidence.

Meh. I don't want a "sense of urgency," but I do want a manager who makes good decisions in a timely manner. Take last night, for example. Porcello went 5 innings and only threw 68 pitches while giving up just 1 run. Nevertheless, Cora brought in Brasier and then Barnes who covered the 6th and 7th innings while keeping that 4-1 lead. For the 8th Cora brought in Sale which cause a huge uproar on talksox. The temerity! Our ace who would also have to start in two days if we lost relieving! But it worked like a charm and gave Sale a little extra confidence at the same time. That was also a superb example of thinking outside the box despite the caterwauling on talksox. Finally the 9th, which has been Kimbrel's inning almost the entire season when the Sox have a lead of 3 runs or less. It's what he lives for because we've seen it time and time again. As far as I can tell from Kimbrel's game log, Cora pulled him just one time in the 9th--on Sep 26 against the Orioles when they had a good lead. Kimbrel stunk. He walked 3 and hit 1--sound familiar? Cora then brought in Scott who liberated all three Orioles on the bases so that Kimbrell was charged with 4 runs. The most runs Kimbrel has given up in any other game this season is 2. Game 2, the loss at Fenway when Price went sour. Cora pulled him the 2d inning--the 2d inning! That sure sounds like a manager who isn't afraid to make a decision or use his bullpen. And he sent in a good guy, Brasier, who unfortunately--with men on base--immediately gave up a hard single which brought in at least 1 more run. I would argue: good, timely move but with a poor result. To me the inescapable conclusions from the above are: 1. Cora is constantly evaluating what's going on and always ready to make an informed decision in a timely manner. 2. He sure as heck isn't afraid to use his bullpen, even one as problematical as this one is. 3. He absolutely, positively doesn't want to give any game away. Thus pulling Price in the 2d and last night sending Sale out to pitch the 8th. 4. He knows Kimbrel and the rest of the bullpen way, way, way better than you do. Last night he made a timely judgment call that Kimbrel in trouble but still in the game was still better than bringing someone else in--at any point in last night's 9th inning. 5. He has a feel for the game that leads to a very high percentage of good decisions that often produce results. And that of course is exactly what happened last night.

If you weren't really worried, you weren't paying attention.

All due respect to dannycater, but no way, no how can a fault Cora for the 9th last night. Kimbrel was the right guy despite the 2 walks and the HBP. The first runner was a 4 ball K to Judge, horrible, but it was Judge; 2d runner was Gregorious with a seeing eye single to the right, Judge to 2B; but then he K's Stanton for out 1; then another BB but on a 3-2 count to Voit; then the HBP on a knuckle ball in the dirt that kicked left, scoring 1 run; then out #2 on a sac fly to LF, runner on 2B not advancing, score now 4-3 but 2 outs and no one on 3B; finally the soft ground out to Nunez who made a great play and Pearce an even greater one. Recalling that sequence again convinces me Cora had good reason to stay with Kimbrel, who was not panicking but did struggle with control. More importantly, I honestly believe no one else in the bullpen could have gone out there and done better once the bases were loaded with 1 out and the score 4-2. In fact, Kimbrel got the next 2 guys out. But pick another point in the sequence, say, men on 1st and 2d and no one out. Kimbrel actually struck the next guy out, so no way a new guy would have done that better. Now comes the walk on a 3-2 count to load the bases, lead still 4-2. Here I would argue any other Sox pitcher coming in would have melted like the wicked witch of the west. Ditto after Walker got the HBP, scoring a run and leaving the bases loaded with 1 out. And this. I don't know about you, but at home I was in a complete panic. But Cora wasn't. He stayed cool while assessing the situation and made a conscious choice based on what he knows about Kimbrel, the bullpen, and the flow of the game. I say this because, had Kimbrel given up a dinger at some point--or even if Torres grounder had resulted in a Nunez throwing error and the ball going to RF and allowing 2 runners to score and the Yankees to in--I would still be arguing I was and am happy with Cora's decisions. I think the guy really has a feel for the game and for this team that none of us comes close to having. And this. Way back in June in what became Wright's last start, he got killed and gave up 10 runs. I spent the next 3 or 4 days excoriating Cora for leaving Wright in. It made no difference that Sox won that one, I think 14-11 or something. Ever since then, however, I have been reluctant to second guess Cora. And there is no doubt in my mind he managed this ALDS brilliantly despite hitting issues (bottom of the lineup) and a problem bullpen.