a700hitter

The last paragraph of this article is interesting. Yankee fans on this forum have claimed that the 2000 team went into cruise control in September when they almost blew their entire lead. Torre's book suggests that maybe they were drying out from roids in September and got a new supply for the playoffs. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2009/01/27/2009-01-27_in_the_yankee_years_david_cone_spills_ju.html

This is certainly not going to aid any reconciliation between the Yanks and Torre. I think it has closed that door for good. He did it to himself. He acted like a petulant child during his last salary negotiation and he followed up with insults in a book. His exit was not at all graceful.

Do the Sox really need to save face if they don't sign him? They sell out every game.

Your argument makes no sense in the context of our discussion. It went like this. You said the current offer was a genius offer. I said that it is only a genius offer if he accepts it. I don't know how anyone could dispute that. If he doesn't sign, not making any offer would be just as "genius" as the current offer. You asked me what I would offer him. I replied that I would keep the guarantee at $5 million but I would add incentives that would allow him to get to $10 million. If he hits the incentives, it means that he had a good year. That would be good news for the team. Again, I don't see how that point could be disputed. Here's where your logic went off the mark. You reponded to my proposed offer by saying "why would they offer him that contract when he already turned down $10 million guaranteed." The logical link is lost here. To boil it down. You like the current offer. I think he will reject it. I proposed an incentive contract. You say that he already turned down $10 million guaranteed. You are confident that he will sign for the current offer, but you scoff at my proposal, because he already rejected an offer for more? You think that is an effective response? Are you saying that an incentive laden contract with the same guarantee is too rich? If that is what you are saying, you didn't say it very clearly at all. If my proposal is too rich, then we can agree to disagree. I don't think he takes the current offer, and if he doesn't, there is no genius to the current offer. I think they need Tek in 2009, because the alternatives are not good ones. I am no big fan of Varitek's. I think that he should be PH for in almost every pressure situation from the 7th inning on. I just don't like Kottaras and Bard as the alternative. I think an incentive deal is the way to go. If he falls on his face, only $5 million is guaranteed. If he rebounds (a good thing), he makes more, but wouldn't he deserve more if he rebounds?

The question has never been whether there is or has been a market for this garbage. There is and always has been a market for scandalous information. How do you come to the conclusion that I am trying to deny that there is a market for this type of material? You are way off the mark. The issue is whether there has been a breach of trust. The issue is whether this action is antithetical to the image that Torre and the press cultivated for him for 12 years. The issue is whether this damages his image.

One thing about you Example is that you are consistent. You always get it wrong. I never said that I don't know the prospects or that I don't follow them. I just don't get excited about them until they hit the majors. Remember the whole debate where i told you that I don't get excited or emotional about guys that I haven't seen play. I do read the scouting reports and look at stats, and I have seen this guy in Spring games. IMO Bard and Kottaras are not okay for 2009. Neither one is ready to be the primary guy in 2009. When Tek came up, he caddied for Hatteburg for 1 year before he took the reins. Hatteburg was better than Kottaras or Bard. Nice try example, but as usual, you never get it right when it come to understanding the posts of other members.

Common ground! It is fun to see the two camps of Yankee fans on this. Those who realize that he betrayed his players and broke the clubhouse code which he lived by, and those who are so crushed by this hypocritical and selfish act that they have rushed to his defense and tried to focus their attention on Torre's alleged mistreatment by the FO. Legends die hard in the minds of those who believe them. I am enjoying every minute of it.

I am just commenting on the information in the several articles written about the book. None of the articles paint Torre in a good light. Are you saying that the information in this article is wholly inaccurate or that each of the writers has an axe to grind with Torre?

The first fact is that the Padres gave up on a 23 yr old catcher for 1 month of a 42 year old fat David Wells. That should tell you the high regard in which he was held. His minor league stats are comparable to Tek's at the same age, but it took Tek until age 27 to develop as a major leaguer, and he was a huge prospect from Georgia Tech. Kottaras is not ready to take the reins in 2009. He should be Tek's caddie in 2009. http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=7902

No, because he has no talent.

How well did Leo Mazzone do with the Oriloles staff? Their worth is greatly inflated. Where is Joe Kerrigan? He was another highly proclaimed pitching coach.

You asked me to give you my rationale for valuing Varitek more than Farrell. I never stated that no other catcher could get the same production from the pitching staff. I just don't think there are any such catchers in the organization who are ready to take the helm in 2009. First of all, I am not aware of any offer from the Sox of $10 million guaranteed for 2009. Second, if they already offered him $10 million guaranteed, why wouldn't they be willing to offer him $5 million guaranteed with contingencies that would allow him to earn $10 million. Your argument makes no sense. Let me get this straight. According to you, they offered him $10 million guaranteed and he turned it down. Now, they offer $5 million take it or leave it. I suggest that they close the deal by offering attainable incentives that will let him get back to $10 million and your response is: "Why would they do that when Varitek already rejected $10+ million guaranteed?" The logic of your statement escapes me. Are you saying that they wouldn't have a better chance offering him $5 million guaranteed with incentives bringing it to $10 million than just offering a guaranteed $5 million? I don't know what point you are trying to make.

I don't have a very high opinion of pitching coaches. I have had dinner with Tom Seaver a few times, and one time I asked him about the way all the 60's Met pitchers relied on their legs-- him, Koosman and Ryan. I asked him if the organization stressed and taught the "drop and drive" delivery. He told me that the coaches didn't teach them anything, and that they learned from each other.

I recollect that he was big on handling matters behind closed doors in a private manner, which is why this is a betrayal to his players. He betrayed his own philosophy regarding the clubhouse.