a700hitter

Honestly, I will not. BTW, I will call you on your cute little barbs at others too. You have been playing that cute little game for too long. I must admit that you are usually excellent at it, but yesterday and today, you stuck both feet in your mouth.

I see it It is mainly directed at the team, the FO etc, but it is mainly not at other posters, and when it is at other posters, it is rarely personal or unprovoked. When posters have gotten into it with UN, I have cautioned them not to play that game. We have no control over what others say, but we can do better, and I am trying.

Should I consider any of these to be personal insults? I count 5. Yes, I am surely paranoid.

I caught you with your pants down about the so-called "incongruity" -- which was nothing more than one of your subtle shots that never has anything to do with the topic at hand. We were discussing the Pineda trade and you look to give me a veiled shot about Bard. I didn't take your bait, and answered in good humor. No victim here. That wasn't good enough for you that I ignored your baiting, because you can never be ignored. You and E1 went onto bash the negativity about Bard. When confronted with longstanding consistent evidence from posts back to August about me being in favor of Bard being a starter, you scream that I am playing the victim card. If you want to accuse about being negative about stuff, get your facts straight. Talk sports, stay on topic, and stop you ******** gotcha games. You are great for statistical analysis. It enlightens everyone, but recently I haven't seen much of that, but you have bitched and whined and been nasty a lot. No victim here, because if that's how you want it to be, I can be a prick with the best of them. I am not optimistic about having two relievers converted to the rotation in the same season. I can't see that working. I want them to get another established starter, put Aceves back in the pen, and give Bard his shot to start. I disagree with those who want to leave Aceves in the rotation and put Bard back in the pen, so again, you are spinning and twisting the truth.

Vitriole directed at who... and why does that bother you? iortiz, I and others were right that the team was collapsing and needed to get pitching. We called that about September 1st. We were right that the FO and the manager and everyone in between was responsible. They are almost all gone. Oh, and in August, I was right that the team was considering converting Bard to a starter in 2012. We are yet to be proved right about 2012, but as I pointed out yesterday, you and the positive people agree with us that we need a starter, so I am not sure what anyone needs to be proved right in 2012, since we all seem to be in agreement. The only vitriole that I see in this forum is directed by one group of posters at another. I am disappointed that you have been one of the spewers.

It was a huge misstep precisely because they missed ony by 1 game. The need was clear. They were down 3 starting pitchers. They needed help. Almost no help was provided by the FO. They thought they had enough to make it through. They did not. That is precisely why the misstep was huge-- they missed the playoffs. The biggest reason for missing the playoffs was that a rotation with two starting pitchers could hold down the fort? Okay, if that's your opinion. Their failure to come up big was definitely a reason. So, now we are arguing about what was the "biggest cause" or "biggest reason"? I don't recall that being the argument, and I don't know what was the biggest cause. I do recall saying that there were several reasons for the collapse. IMO it was an organizational failure on all levels-- players, coaches, FO and everyone else except the food vendors. The FO bears its share of responsibility. First, you argue that injuries were the reason, now you are looking to throw it all off on Beckett and Lester? What don't you spin in a few more circles. The argument was whether injuries excuse the FO. I say it doesn't and I backed up why. You come back with it is mainly Lester's and Beckett's fault? They had been operating with 2 competent pitchers for more than two months. They had a big problem-- an obvious one. They did almost nothing to address it. and no one was throwing it "out the window on a nonsensical cliche". Injuries are an acknowledged reason for the collapse - a very big reason, but it does not excuse the FO from its responsibility for the collapse.

They didn't need to rebuild a rotation. They needed some patches.

I think you could read the remarks of Tito and Theo as being in a comfortable position knowing they had the wild card in certain years. It's not a nonsensical conclusion. They don't start the season that way, but as things progressed during certain seasons they thought that lining up their pitching for the post season was more important. They said it. I didn't. You need to take it down a notch. You can't just reply to another poster's opinion with "that's nonsense." We have one ******* like that already. That's enough.

I think there are probably about a dozen instances over the last several seasons where Tito and/or Theo have answered questions by saying that their goal was to win the Division, but it was more important to have their pitching lined up for the playoffs. I think that raises the question legitimately in peoples minds about whether they are just playing for the wild card. Your response of "nonsense" was nonsense.

Two comments on this post. First, we were not trotting out 6 and 7's. The guys we were trotting out like Weiland and Miller should not have been on the roster. Wakefield should have been in an assisted living facility. Harden and Millwood would have been 6 and 7's. We weren't in need of a big rotation piece. We needed a few competent starts from competent starters. Second, how can you say we were going nowhere? We needed 2 more wins to get into the playoffs.

Your command of the English language is excellent. You should invite some of these posters into the Latin thread so you can confirm your suspicions about their circular arguments.

Why is it nonsense? Please explain.

Here was my opinion about the issue before the season ended. http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/15817-should-red-sox-consider-bard-starter-2012-a.html#post698177 ^Read this thread This is one of several positive posts in that thread made by me about Bard going to the starting rotation. Of course, you have assumed that I have been negative about this. You should read that thread and then you'll know how I feel about the issue. Maybe you should be certain about your facts before you start criticizing others. Here was my first post about Bard becoming a starter. The date of this post is August 14th. I was basically told that I was crazy and had no proof that the Sox were considering Bard as a starter. Maybe you should read that thread too. http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/15588-jonathan-papelbon-can-we-lock-him-up-please-2.html#post685732 ^You should read this thread too. But you are not negative. BTW: With regard to this thread, some of us have been asking for discussion about this for many months. We already had a thread about this. Edit; So how about we keep the discussion to sports since you really suck at insulting posters?

So let me get this right ORS. I make a post about Pineda's abilities, because our competitors the Yankees just got him, and you take that as an opportunity to start an argument with me about Bard who I have discussed becoming a starter before the season ended. You don't think that is being unnecessarily argumentative? It was also without any provocation. Even after your lame-ass attempt to get under my skin, I still played it off in good humor, but that was still not enough for you. You had to launch into a whine-ass festival with E1 about other posters. That's not negativity? You have problems dude.

The problem SFF is if the Yanks moves are wash with regard to their 2011, they did beat us by 7 games in 2011, so we are not closing the gap.

The Yankee rotation will be much stronger in 2012 than it was in 2011. They have an ace that always contends for CY Young, and they are 7 deep at the major league level.

Of course the players lost it on the field. That is where things get decided. Howver, we were only running two capable pitcher to the mound (Beckett and Lester) for the last 2 plus months of the season. The missing pieces of road were clear to everyone.

It looks more like a detour year. The bridge apparently collapsed.

There was nothing revisionist in my post. There are huge errors in your post above. At the time of the trading deadline, it was being reported that Buchholz condition was not improving and rather that it was worsening. As of July 28th, they were scheduling him to meet another back specialist and there was genuine concern that he would not return in 2011. It was being acknowledged in the press that Buchholz's injury might change the Sox approach to the trading deadline. It was reported in the press on August 1st that he had a stress fracture and was unlikely to come back. Here are links to articles that I found at that time. I am sure there are many more. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/782809-mlb-trade-rumors-clay-buchholz-injury-worsening-red-sox-forced-to-trade http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/7/28/2300619/clay-buchholz-injury-red-sox-back http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2011/08/boston-red-sox-clay-buchholz-back-injury/1 I acknowledged in my post that sometimes injuries cannot be prepared for or dealt with after the fact. However, 2011 was not that situation for the Sox. They had several options available to address the situation-- some very low cost and others at a high cost (like Fister-- who is a great pickup for the Tigers). The Sox opted for one fragile pitcher who was on the DL with a bad knee. They blew it. I never said that injuries aren't part of the discussion of what happened. Of course they are part of the reason for the collapse. There is no doubt about that. No one is disputing that. However, it is not an excuse for the FO in 2011 who didn't deal with the situation that was clearly becoming a crisis by the trading deadline. They knew Buchholz was not recovering. He had not even thrown off a mound by the trading deadline. They knew he had a fractured back before the deadline. Dice K had already undergone TJ surgery and it was suspected that Lackey was injured. There was a crisis staring them in the face and they responded with Bedard to bolster a $170 million payroll that was clearly in need of 3 starters. That was a huge misstep, and many of us non-professionals could see it at the time. What would Harden have brought? He only needed to bring 1 or 2 wins more wins than either Weiland or Wakefield or Miller. That was it. He didn't have to bring a lot. It's acknowledged that he has good major league stuff. He was going to be better than the guys we were rolling out there 3 of every 5 games. They didn't all get fired? One walked? Tito wouldn't have gotten fired if chicken-gate didn't go public? :lol: You really have nothing. Finally, going forward, the FO Office apologists should be on notice that injuries will not be an excuse in 2012, unless as I said previously, their plane crashes. We have a rotation of 3 reliable Major League pitchers. To say that our pitching staff lacks depth at this point going into 2012 would be a huge understatement. The situation is clear to everyone. If they do nothing to address it and they suffer an injury to the big 3, while it will be a reason for another bad season, it will not excuse the FO negligence.

It's starting to occur to me that the FO (including Benny Boy) wants Bobby V to play the bad cop. The statements we have heard and the ones today about Tek and Wakefield are probably more a result of a bigger strategy rather than Bobby V just being a loose cannon. I guess this type of strategy can work, but it is not ideal for player-manager relations. If it is going to work, he will have to have the complete unequivocal support of the FO. I don't know if he can put a lot of faith in that. LL is a duplicitous SOB. Edit: I didn't like reading the quote below from Valentine today, because it is probably true. One thing Benny boy hasn't done this season is mislead anyone. He has done what he has said he would do. Bobby V is in the know, and this is probably Benny boys plan.