example1

So now its okay to point to someone's stats/accomplishments to justify giving them a spot, but referring to Pedroia as the Sox minor league offensive player of the year, or the NCAA defensive player of the year doesn't count for something? I mean, Pedroia's stats/accomplishments in lower levels are not the same as a gold glove, but in combination, with a real eye toward who Pokey Reese was when the sox got him I think it easily balances things out. I just think that if you're going to disagree with a FO that has some of the best sabermetric minds (people like Bill James) consulting them about how to evaluate players and value, you better first try and construct what the FO's argument is about why Pedroia should start, and then construct a better argument that addresses the FO's argument. You gotta bring some ammo. Saying that a guy hasn't played, or he's a rookie and shouldn't be given the spot because of that seems pretty dogmatic if you ask me. Is that a rule that applies to baseball across the board? Does it apply just to 2B, or just to 2B with + defensive skills and + on-base skills? You should just go root for the yankees if you don't like what this FO does!! :harhar: I love grape flavored kool aid myself. You're just the pillar of rationality and soberity huh a700? Mr. Balanced. My only real reluctance is for the FO to spend a considerable amount of time seeking a second baseman who meets your standards, although its not really an issue since I don't think they're going to. I mention the type of guys they've traditionally gone for for the position you're talking about and you seem to agree that at best the Sox can hope for one of the numerous 'average' 2B who are always out there. So why freak out about a guy like Pedroia? The annoyance I have with this situation in particular is that otherwise level-headed people are using this as a platform to criticize the FO's ability to construct a team when, by most estimations this is on only going to happen soon one way or the other (be it April or Sept), but Pedroia is the plan for 2B for the forseeable future.

The only people saying the last month of the season counted are the anti-Pedroites. While you were too pissed off to notice, aparently a number of us noticed that this kid has some skills and appears to have the ability to play in the bigs. Also, why do you have to type like its a sonnett? I'm getting used to it but man its annoying.

Pokey played plenty of 2B, so, he was backing up who... nobody? And by "Pedroia is not Nomar" you must mean the Nomar BEFORE Pokey Reese came along, because the Nomar of 04 sucked and he was injured before the season started. Look at the articles when the Sox signed Reese... it says they signed him to be their next 2B. Lo and behold, he ended up playing some SS too, but they got Reese to START at 2B, not to backup Nomar. Reese didn't even end up starting at 2B for much of the season once Bellhorn was found... but I digress. Does it matter? They seem to be valuing HIM quite a bit and it seems to be something people here should just accept rather than bitching and moaning as if they have some better idea of what to do at 2B. Yes, a700. You figured it out. I drink before I post. Very smart a700. Very smart. You're right, Mays etc., weren't given starting jobs. Of course, neither was Pedroia. This kid played for 2 months last season, without being told that he was the starter. So, interestingly, Pedroia wasn't "given" the starting job at all, he played backup for much of last season. I have no problem with having a backup plan, you and I just disagree about it. We can go and find guys who are EXACTLY LIKE EVERY OTHER plan we've had in the past. Guiteriez, Reese, Damian jackson, Willie Harris, etc., are all the types of players that we can have in a heart beat... so would that make you happy? Or, do you have to pay a guy like Loretta a ton of money to sit on the bench... or, is it possible that you actually aren't concerned about the BACKUP plan, but more about the PLAN itself? I think its the latter, because you've never been comfortable with the idea of Pedroia being a starter despite pretending to have accepted it and really just looking for a backup plan when backup plans are a dime a dozen.

Nice stevece80. I've seen you on other boards, but I'm glad you've decided to come say hi. Hope you stick around. Great Matsuzaka pic.

Oh yeah, missed this part. Would the Red Sox being able to move Matt clement be a "Great move"? To me it seems like it would be a necessary move, an important move but not a "great move". Despite Gom's tendency to rain on every Sox fan's parade whenever anything good happens for them, he's okay to turn around and start praising the Yankees FO for a "great move" of getting rid of players they never should have spent the farm on in the first place? Does ending a nightmare that never should have started in the first place end up being a "great" move. Is that the type of thing that Yankee or Red Sox fans should walk away, patting themselves on the back about how great their FO is? If so that's pretty weak and that's what I was responding to.

Yeah, wasn't that convenient for a few days when everyone assumed we'd pay Matsuzaka 12-14m a year and thus pay him more than 20m a year. Wasn't that cool when yankee fans could say that the Red Sox were basically the same as the Yankees in payroll. I didn't buy it then--although I thought it strengthened their argument--and I don't buy it now. Matsuzaka is paid like a top line pitcher who was a FA. nothing more. Manny makes less than multiple Yankees do, and other than that the Sox are closer, MUCH, MUCH closer to the other teams than they are to the Yankees. So, yeah, for a few days it made sense to say the Sox were just free spending and I bet it felt pretty good. I don't believe it. They filled some holes at the necessary price (SS, RF(?)), but so did a whole lot of other teams.

Am I done? What kind of question is that? You saw the f-ing period, you saw that I submitted the post, then you just tell me I missed his point entirely. Here's what his point was: if the Yankees can get Zito and get rid of RJ it would be a "great move". I went to considerable lengths to show that, although that particular part of the deal would be a "nice" move for the Yankees (getting rid or an inconvenience for a decent player), the entire RJ acquisition (which, in many ways, epitomizes the crappy management style they've had the past few years) can not be seen as a success and the word "great" deserves a better placement than to be referring to ANY deal the yankees have made with RJ.

There's only one way to find out.

Christ you guys are all shortsighted. We have a backup second baseman, his name is Alex Cora. You want another one? Okay, how about Ricky Guiteriez or Pokey Reese or any of those guys that we've had the past few years? The Sox FO thinks Pedroia is MORE than an average second baseman, which is why they spent a 2nd Round pick on him, why this guy was their minor league Offensive Player of the Year in 2005(!) and an International league All-Star last year. Just accept it: it doesn't look like Loretta is coming back. So.... let's start exploring some other solutions instead of saying "Pedoia isn't Soriano! Wahhhh" Stop bitching and moaning about "Pedroia isn't Soriano. He's not Joe Morgan!" Jesus, just shut up already! It's true. Jason Varitek isn't Yogi Berra, Julio Lugo isn't Honus Wagner and Coco Crisp isn't Willie Mays. So what? Does that mean they can't be good, useful players? You guys would rather that Pedroia sit on his ass until 2 months in, when your mediocre aging replacement second baseman gets injured and Pedroia comes off the bench cold for the first month or two, which will inevitably lead to you guys continuing to bitch and moan at Pedroia. Some of you don't seem to understand the value of a player who is a + fielder and who can get on base better than 90% of players his age at his posiiton. Perhaps your just getting bored talking about getting more relievers and a closer, :dunno: but have some faith in this FO and ALL of the scouts who have watched Pedroia. When a player is, at worst, projected to be a solidly MLB average 2B then you don't need to drop everything to get some mediocre "name" that you have all heard of, to make you feel better about 3rd and 4th contingency plans. Let this guy's career unfold. You're all saying its not hard to find a replacement, its not that important of an offensive position, or most teams deal with average 2B... then it won't be hard to find a player when that is necessary. This team isn't going to sign Soriano (who is a LF/CF by the way) so get over it. Dustin Pedroia is goign to be on this team for 5 years (my prediction). I WILL be calling those of you out who can't seem to do anything other than complain at this point.

He may not be very impressive or exciting but he's got some skills and will be given a shot at a starting job. What second baseman would you suggest (not rhetorical)? I think Loretta would have been a "high end" 2B, who would have been wasted on the bench. There is some sense that the sox are trying to cultivate some of their younger base into a core more quickly, and giving Pedroia the job is part of that. You're right that second basemen are not very expensive. I think that's an argument against them going out to get someone else... second basemen are not very expensive because they're all relatively the same. On the top end you have a guy who gets 15-25 HR, drives in runs and plays solid defense (say, Utley). Under that there a bunch of guys who have different skill sets. Some guys have speed, some are tremendous fielders, few are very useful batters, most are average. What's the problem with giving Pedroia a shot for the first 3 months of the season and making changes along the way? In the past we've had Guitteriez, Pokey Reese, Damian Jackson, to back up guys like Bellhorn and Todd Walker and things worked out fine. What do you hope to get from a second baseman?

Prime Rib, Taters, Yorkshire Pudding, Gravy and probably some useless vegetable to get in the way! Merry Christmas everyone.

I imagine an extra incentive for the Yankees is keeping this pitcher away from the Red Sox. I'm willing to bet that was part of their thought process.

I think you guys are both doing the same thing. Its a form of relativism, just pointing to certain tendencies or stats of a list of particular people and saying "I have a reason for my belief too!". What you need are statistics that are not based exclusively on notable individuals who go from one league to the other, but based instead on aggrigate stats, team stats, league stats and over a few years. I don't know what stats those are and league ability is a very complex question to answer statistically, balancing each league against itself, each park against each other park, etc., I'm sure someone here could come up with a good argument though that would be better than a list of examples. There's always an excuse or counter example when done that way.

Welcome back dude. Haven't you been back for a week already?

That's not necessarily true Jacksonianmarch. I think you're partially right, in that Theo will have to pay more than one would usually be comfortable with to get the pitcher he's looking for. He also won't get a BJ Ryan/Joe Nathan/Mo Rivera type shut-down, Rolaids® Relief Award winner, etc., However, the sox are pretty deep in the minors and do have some parts they can move for something as important as a relief ace at a reasonable price, at a good age and for the next few years. He may intentionally get bent over and not consider it as being a bend over if it is the exact piece his team needs.

I second that. Nice list.

I've got to agree with this assessment. Melky has certainly earned his spot on the team and it would be a shame to get traded for a reliever. I think Melky is a very good player and I wish the sox got him. He's solid.