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You only care about the name on the front, huh? How noble of you. Let us all bow in your presence. Schilling's average game score last season placed him 16th in all of baseball. He finished ahead of, among others, Bonderman, Bedard, Capuano, Verlander, Zito, Rogers, Willis, Lowe, Glavine, Felix Hernandez, and Wang. Very simple statistic and it certainly doesn't capture everything, but it puts standardized weight on particular game occurances that impact one's chances of winning. A strike out is a point a hit is -2, etc., Looking at the list of the top 15 I see a great number that are among the best pitchers in baseball: Santana Carpenter Webb Sabathia Oswalt Zambrano Smoltz Halladay Arroyo Young Schmidt Mussina Peavy Lackey Harang Schilling Myers He was 14th in K/9, 14th in OBP against. The man was 12th in K's and his 6.54 K/BB ratio was far and away the best in baseball (by 1.33 over Santana's 5.21). If you're arguing that I'm thinking about '04 Schilling I expect you to show me some stats to back it up. Not only am I thinking about '06 Schilling, I'm putting out a significant amount of proof that Schilling is still one of the best 20 pitchers in baseball, he is a workhorse and certainly an ABOVE average #3. Even with the traditional ERA stat Schilling had a better season than Capuano, Bonderman, Peavy, Westbrook and Pettitte, finishing 29th in overall ERA. He went 9-1, with a 3.06 ERA in 94 IP at home last year, striking out 91 and walking 10. If he does that again next year in half of his starts we'll be happy to have him.

Nah. You keep a guy like Schilling around because: a) at WORST he's ML average for a #3-4 pitcher you have at least three pitchers who will benefit greatly by being able to say "I pitched with Curt Schilling for 'x' years". (Matsuzaka, Papelbon, Beckett in particular, Lester as well). c) If you get into the playoffs you want Curt Schilling pitching for you, period. Sign him for one more year at 13m. Overspend to get the guy to stick around and retire a Red Sox. No brainer if you ask me.

Papelbon. He will be the 5th starter and will be moved back into the closer/relief ace role for the playoffs and World Series. He's the ace in the hole. Let's hope that's the scenario at least. Barring that craziness, Bryce Cox or Craig Hansen.

I love how he looks at the glass of beer after he finishes it. He's got a firm grip on that glass but looks VERY satisfied. Like striking out a little child. It's like he's saying "that all you got? I guess so." Good acting. I'm thirsty...

I think KC is the perfect place for him to get his feet under himself in his first start. Are plane tickets to KC expensive? This kid has got some f***ing moxie. He's just so damn cocky and seems to have a good sense of humor and a bit of humility too (paradoxical, yes, but I think its true). He seems genuine, thoughtful and well-spoken (or at least his Harvard graduate translator was all of those things). But you can see from his ability to make eye-contact, his head nodding when listening to questions, etc., that this guy is pretty bright and self-assured. Anyone read the report on him by Callis in Baseball America's Prospect Guide? All three of the reviewers rank him as their #1 prospect (in all of baseball) and the page-long write-up is nothing but positive projections. While calling him a prospect is 'marginal' at best, I think its safe to say that if jacksonian can be so certain that Phillip Hughes is going to be worth something then Sox fans have absolutely every right to believe with confidence that Matsuzaka is a tremendous addition to this team. Anyway, a little taste from the piece (for copyright reasons I shouldn't put the whole thing): Personally I think he'll be a #1 by the end of the year. His stuff, his control, he poise, his history of success under pressure, his age, his work ethic, everything just screams "best Japanese pitcher yet". He's a tremendous addition to this team. Think about how much the Tigers benefited from adding a Justin Verlander to their rotation... it can be huge to add a big-time starting pitcher.

What list is this? Doubront was ranked 18th by BA this year and I think he certainly deserves to be ahead of 42nd regardless of the validity one puts on BA's rankings.

My Grandfather's Cousin was Bill Fischer (that's my mom's maiden name) pitching coach for the Sox in the 80's. A brief search shows that he was notable for a few other things: "A former Marine drill instructor, Fischer established a ML record in 1962, pitching 84-1/3 consecutive innings for the A's without giving up a base on balls, surpassing Christy Mathewson's mark of 68. That season, Fischer walked only eight batters, covering 127-2/3 innings. He became a pitching coach for the Reds and Red Sox." He was once traded, along with Tito Francona, for Bob Shaw and Ray Boone " May 22, 1963: At Yankee Stadium, New York blows a 7–0 lead and allows Kansas City to tie the game and send it into extra innings. Mickey Mantle, leading off the 11th, is fooled by Bill Fischer on a slow curve, then cannons a 2–2 pitch that almost clears the RF roof. "The hardest ball I ever hit," Mantle later comments, a ball that, by some accounts, was still rising when it struck a foot below the top. It is conservatively estimated by Dr. James McDonald, a physicist who studies long-ball trajectories, that the ball would have traveled 620 feet if it had not struck the facade. "That was the only homer I ever hit that the bat actually bent in my hands," Mantle tells Dale Long, from whom he borrowed the bat." I guess I'm fairly-closely related to someone who may have given up (one of) the longest shots in recorded history. :thumbsup:

I certainly think it could be, but if they're demanding Hansen or above in talent and if they're making the sox pay a ton of money then its just not worth it. If they want someone to pay half his salary and to get a package of MLB players back then the Sox are their team. Now Helton will, A-Rod style, go to the Yankees and become hated by Sox fans.

People value him so highly because he's very young, can hit 98 mph and, according to every scout out there, has a slider that is actually his best pitch. Imagine Brad Lidge at 23 years old. Lidge was in the Florida spring league, Hansen just finished the second season in which he had time with the big club. I think hansen would be the first to say that his slider has been lost since he signed, but he will likely have success with it again. With MDC what you see is what you get. A number of plus pitches but nothing absolutely outstanding. I just think that Helton will provide more in the clubhouse, defensively and in other ways on the field than MDC will and its worth pulling the trigger if MDC is the missing piece. .

Schilling is still a good pitcher. He will be fine. He wants a deal quickly and I see no reason why the Sox wouldn't give it to him. If anyone deserves one year at a moderate FA salary, its Curt. The rotation will not be any worse for the wear and if Wakefield retires then Lester gets a shot. If he doesn't then it gives another year for Lester to develop and for Buchholz, Bowden and Bard to learn some new tricks as well.

I don't think so. There is never accurate information on these things. Remember the day before the Matsuzaka posting was announced: "NY Wins!". From what I've read there is Hansen AND Delcarmen, Hansen OR Delcarmen, Ellsbury as deal breaker, they're willing to take Jon Lester, the Sox are interested, the Sox are not interested, the talks have died, the talks are progressing. Who knows? If any of the Delcarmen or Hansen stuff is true then the Sox have a lot of thinking to do. I mean, who wouldn't do a deal that was essentially Todd Helton + 50 million (Matsuzaka's posting fee) for hansen, tavarez and Lowell? You lose Lowell's contract, get half of Helton paid for (which is the same as the posting fee) and add a hitter who, in my opinion, is going to age pretty well as a 1B with tremendous hand-eye and OBP skills. the more I think about it the more I think Helton is exactly what this team could use. The problem, of course, is the length of the contract, not the player. 5 years from now Helton will not be anything special, though I think 3 seasons are not out of the question. If the Rockies are paying half of helton's contract perhaps the Sox would be willing to pay more of it now (say, 2/3) and less of it later, so that colorado will pay 4m, 8m, 8m, 12m, 18m in each year of the contract. By 2011 the Sox would be paying a couple of million, plus the buy-out of his contract. It doesn't seem absurd if 50m is what they're looking at, and if Hansen or Delcarmen are all that's asked with those other throw-away guys then I'm all for it.

So Kason Gabbard and Abe Alvarez are too much? I think we should start with a select group of prospects and young players who are off limits and work from there: Lester Pedroia Hansen Delcarmen Buchholz Bowden Bard Ellsbury Masterson Cox Kris Johnson Kottaras Jason Place That's my rough list of 13 players who I would have some hesitation in giving up. I would refuse to give up Ellsbury, Bowden, Buchholz, Lester, Pedroia and probably Hansen. After that, Bard, Masterson and Cox would be hard to part with but negotiable if the deal were sweet enough. I don't see what all the fuss is about trading Delcarmen. I like the guy, a lot. I think he has starter potential and good stuff. But he isn't the prize of the group. If we lost him for Helton then c'est la vie. No big deal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chien-Ming_Wang This is more what I was looking for. it says 97. For a guy who can throw that hard I can't help but wonder why he's so prone to contact. He's a very good pitcher, but it is curious. He certainly doesn't seem like a guy who throws 97. Lester has never had a chance in the pros to relax and throw without feeling like he has something to prove. That's not to say he doesn't have anything to prove, he does, but last year he pitched on the edge a lot. By which I mean he got himself deep into counts trying to make perfect pitches, and had those bad innings where he got himself into trouble. He had a marked ability to get himself out of trouble too, which I imagine is something that has always been with him, as his WHIP is average but his success has been definitely above average. He was thrown into the mix much too early last year, but he survived. He's a great athlete with deceptive stuff. I think of him and Hansen as opposites at this point. Hansen needs to get hungry and attack the strike zone with his stuff, and not care if he gives up a walk or two in the process because he will always be throwing his pitch. Lester, on the other hand, is bull-doggish on the mound and he attacks the strike zone with his pitch most of the time. He walks too many but also gets a good number of K's and can work out of jams, seemingly with increased concentration (or luck).

Here's Lester and the paper saying he can hit 94. Now, show me where Wang has ever hit 99. http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/08/12/lester_learning_to_be_a_leader/?page=2

So how do you explain Chein-Ming Wang's 44 against KC on September 4th, or his 50 on May 27th? Isn't he the guy you say is the Yankees best pitcher? Wang's best game was an 82, against Tampa Bay. Wang's average game score of 50 isn't all that impressive, despite different BB numbers. Lester struck out 60 to Wang's 76 (81.1 IP vs 218 IP). 4 years younger I have plenty of faith that Lester will be a fine #3 pitcher in 3 years, particularly because he'll be on a team with 3 other stud pitchers. I can't think of a whole lot of 94 mph throwing, 23 year old lefties out there.

You say all of that about Lester, but I look at his longest pro-season, his AA season in 2005: 11-6, 148.1 IP, 163 K. 2.61 ERA, 9.89 K/9, 1.15 WHIP and I say "that guy's a pretty good pitcher". He was 21 when he did that. He's still very, very young at 23 years old. He had a game last year where he struck out 10. His average game score was 47, but he had a high of 80 (compared to Beckett's high of 81). With more innings that would put him in the middle of this list: Aaron Cook 48 Cliff Lee 47.8 Jarrod Washburn 47.7 Mark Hendrickson 47.6 Matt Morris 47.5 Tim Hudson 47.2 Brad Radke 47.1 Claudio Vargas 47.1 Jon Lester 47 Kris Benson 46.9 Zach Duke 46.8 Livan Hernandez 46.7 Miguel Batista 46.4 Paul Maholm 46.1 Joe Blanton 45.1 It's not a absolute lock statistic. But it does sort of speaks to what type of production one should expect from a pitcher in terms of innings, runs allowed, etc., and with these names I see a lot of reason to be happy about the performance of the 22 year old. his best game score was an 80 (compare that to Beckett's best: 81,

Its easy to make a blanket statements about the value of prospects if you don't pay attention to the facts about them. I know you don't talk out of your ass and you know a bit about the 'specs, but to say that you don't have time to pay attention to the prospects and then to imply that those of us who do pay attention to them can't possibly forecast them at all seem contradictory. To take from philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein, "whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent". If you don't pay attention to them then you should say "I'm not sure whether or not we should trade Ellsbury or Bard or Buchholz or Bowden for Helton" rather than "no prospects work out, we should trade any prospects for Helton" (which I felt was implied by your statements on this issue). I know you've had a lifetime of watching prospects fail to jade you, but there are plenty of people who make a living from watching prospects and judging whether they will pan out or not. I do not. However, I don't think its too hard to make predictions about certain players. Starting pitchers with + stuff, who haven't been hit at any level, guys who strike out more than 1 per inning, who have youth, size and a mid-90's FB, those guys get shots at MLB. You don't just trade them willy nilly if you're looking to make your team young and cost effective. Thanks for calling my attempt to argue "ernest". I take that as a compliment and I appreciate all the work you put into discussing the MLB guys. What I said above (about you not paying attention to minor leaguers) can certainly not be said of your knowledge of the big club. You're as good a fan as any. I only recently started paying a lot of attention to the Sox minor leaguers, probably 2 years ago, so its new for me as well.

I'd be willing to bet that he doesn't swing at many breaking pitches from lefties, and the ones he does swing on he is fooled on. He's the type of hitter who could happily wait for a pitcher to prove that he can throw strikes with breaking pitches, or take a walk trying.