Alex Cora Wants the Red Sox Stars To Play Every Day. Is That a Good Idea?

This is most certainly a flip and an indication that Cora is open to change and trying something else- for good or bad, I guess.

Neither way seemed to help.

4 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

This is most certainly a flip and an indication that Cora is open to change and trying something else- for good or bad, I guess.

Neither way seemed to help.

The headline may be deceiving itself... "the Red Sox stars" - as in plural?

Atlanta's entire infield is comprised of All-Stars, and they have an MVP rightfielder and a DH who's slugged 77 homers the past two years. A core like that should play as much as possible if you want to win.

In contrast, Boston has one rampaging star outfielder, and some others who are pretty good at basically one thing: corner infielders who can go deep when their bodies let them, a decent shortstop glove that's rarely healthy, several all-or-nothing power hitters, a contact bat with little power, a catcher who can hit better than he catches, and some utility men who rake lefties.

If the next Sox' core reaches true stardom, please surround them with able bench pieces to give them an occasional rest -- like Cora had in '18, and Francona had in the '00s, and Zimmer didn't (or refused to use) in the '70s.

39 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

The headline may be deceiving itself... "the Red Sox stars" - as in plural?

Atlanta's entire infield is comprised of All-Stars, and they have an MVP rightfielder and a DH who's slugged 77 homers the past two years. A core like that should play as much as possible if you want to win.

In contrast, Boston has one rampaging star outfielder, and some others who are pretty good at basically one thing: corner infielders who can go deep when their bodies let them, a decent shortstop glove that's rarely healthy, several all-or-nothing power hitters, a contact bat with little power, a catcher who can hit better than he catches, and some utility men who rake lefties.

If the next Sox' core reaches true stardom, please surround them with able bench pieces to give them an occasional rest -- like Cora had in '18, and Francona had in the '00s, and Zimmer didn't (or refused to use) in the '70s.

Great point.

I could see the 2025 season unfolding where only 3 guys could be seen as 162 game players: Duran, Devers and Casas, and I only list Casas, because we have no back-up 1Bman who hits better than .760 vs LHPs.

Of course, if we call up Anthony, it should only be as a FT player, but probably not 162 games, and with so many OF'ers on the team, we'd need to get them playing time: LHBs: Duran, Abreu and RHBs: Rafaela, Refsnyder and maybe Campbell.

I'd say Story should be 162, but I don't want to be laughed at, and with LHB Mayer knocking on the door, I could see Story being "rested" quite a bit.

Catcher: we have a poor fielding RHB in Wong and a promising catcher who bats LH'd in Teel.

2B: We have LHBs Mayer & DHam and RHBs Campbell, Grissom & Romy

CF: We have LHBs Anthony & Duran (when not in LF) and RHBs Rafaela and maybe Campbell.

RF: We have 2 LHBs in Anthony & Abreu, and we can play RHB Ref in short RF's, or play him in LF at Fenway vs LHPs. We might also try Campbell (RHB) in RF, someday.

DH: Yoshida looks FT, but with a full OF, one could argue Ref should DH vs LHPs. (LHB E Valdez offers depth at platoon DH, for what that is worth.) If ref retires, maybe Abreu would be the back-up LHB DH with Campbell as the RHB platoon, assuming 2B is full.

We have a ton of mix and match options at almost every position, except 1B, unless we count Devers, Mediroth, Wong & Romy as legit depth. 3B is a bit scarce, unless you view Story, Mayer or Campbell as an option. Meidroth, Campbell, Romy and Sogard are possibilities, too, so maybe it's not all that scarce.

To me, we need a major plan to improve our pitching, as quickly as possible, while the window of these everyday players remains open. One could claim the window will be widest somewhere around 2026-2027, but I think we can open it wide in 2025, with several strategic and major additions, this winter.

Again, this is not a prediction. I seriously doubt JH & Co. see this winter as "THE WINTER" to get bold. IMO, even if they don't see this winter as the one, they can make 2-3 moves that help in 2026 and 2027, while also greatly improving the pitching staff for 2025, along the way. 

I know it is costly, moneywise and in trade capital, but we need to acquire younger pitchers with 3 or more years of team control. Starters and relievers, and at least 2-3 of them. (I'd prefer 4, but know that will not happen, this winter.) We have a surplus of everyday players: use it. We should have a sizable chunk of change to spend, this winter: use it wisely and only on pitching. This whole Bregman talk is foolish.

ACQUIRE PITCHING! Improve the pitcher development system! Pitch who we got where they can be most successful! Stop forcing square pegs into round holes!

5 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

To me, we need a major plan to improve our pitching, as quickly as possible, while the window of these everyday players remains open. One could claim the window will be widest somewhere around 2026-2027, but I think we can open it wide in 2025, with several strategic and major additions, this winter.

Again, this is not a prediction. I seriously doubt JH & Co. see this winter as "THE WINTER" to get bold. IMO, even if they don't see this winter as the one, they can make 2-3 moves that help in 2026 and 2027, while also greatly improving the pitching staff for 2025, along the way. 

 

Teams don't need to wait for a window to "go for it" to invest in top level pitching. Nor should they...

Good under-30 arms and proven veteran MLB starters are both prerequisites for any contender built to go deep in the postseason.

And there's no such thing as "wasting" money or service years by acquiring top-of-the-rotation starters even before the next core of position players become stars -- which, btw, has no scheduled linear timetable (when was the last time every club's top minor leaguers became studs all at once).

Spending on good pitching now expedites everyone else's development; it establishes a winning culture with younger hurlers, helps them improve by sharing books on hitters and umps, grips on new pitches, experiences dealing with injuries, ups and downs; and also invigorates position players looking forward to success... and maybe even entices free agents from other clubs to consider Beantown a destination of destiny.

11 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Teams don't need to wait for a window to "go for it" to invest in top level pitching. Nor should they...

Good under-30 arms and proven veteran MLB starters are both prerequisites for any contender built to go deep in the postseason.

And there's no such thing as "wasting" money or service years by acquiring top-of-the-rotation starters even before the next core of position players become stars -- which, btw, has no scheduled linear timetable (when was the last time every club's top minor leaguers became studs all at once).

Spending on good pitching now expedites everyone else's development; it establishes a winning culture with younger hurlers, helps them improve by sharing books on hitters and umps, grips on new pitches, experiences dealing with injuries, ups and downs; and also invigorates position players looking forward to success... and maybe even entices free agents from other clubs to consider Beantown a destination of destiny.

I could not agree more. Adding pitchers, ideally more than we think we need, allows the decent pitchers we already have to pitch in roles that better suit their skillsets.

This should not be some unrealistic dream by a few fans. It needs to be the plan by management.

8 minutes ago, Nick said:

Not everyone can play 162 games. As athletic as Story is, his approach is 'violent' defensively, he goes after it on every play and I doubt he can sustain that for 162 games. He needs rest.

I agree with you on Casas. Not a great athlete but he plays within his physical limits, thus he can play 162 games, especially at 1B. I think that position requires more 'mental' than 'physical'.

Just to follow up on your thread, Brez was quoted in a recent article that because we have cheap controlled players in our organization, maybe it's time to go after premium FA (I am paraphrasing).

C Wongs 4 (starting in 2025)

1B Casas 4 (feels like he'll test FA)

2B Grissom 5 (just picking him out)

SS Story (3 + option year)

3B Devers (9 years)

LF Duran (4 years)

CF Rafaela (7 years)

RF Abreu (5 years)

DH Yoshida (3 years)

Throw in guys like Hamilton (5), Valdez (5), Gonzalez (4) along with our fabulous 4 (all with potential 6+partial depending on call up date), we do indeed have plethora of controllable position players. 

On the pitching side you'd have to start with Bello (5+option), Kutter (4), Tanner (3) and Whitlock (2 plus 2 option years). You might as well throw in Fitts (6 yrs).

The bullpen is in shambles. Not sure if anyone has established themselves. Too me, it's a complete rebuild even though some will be retained.

I AM NOT SURE WHAT WE ARE WAITING FOR. IT'S TIME PUT THE CHIPS IN THE MIDDLE.  THE PITCHING WILL NOT COME FROM THE ORGANIZATION.

 

I have faith in Slaten as a very good set-up man. I also have a lot of faith in Whitlock in the pen. He has great "stuff," but his health always places an asterisk next to his name. I'd love to see Crawford in the pen, but I know that won't happen.

Anyway, a pen is 8 pitchers and we have 2- 3 if you count Hendriks.

A lot of our farm arms project better as RP'ers, so maybe we just need short term solutions like Bloom did with Jansen & Martin.

3 minutes ago, Nick said:

I simply do not want to say "we need pitching" the entire season in 2025. LOL

We have to plan for not needing pitching at the deadline, even with 3+ on the 60 day IL.

I know that sounds like a pipe dream, but needing 3 pitchers every deadline, when the cost is higher is not a sound plan. I know Brez tried to add more pitchers (Gio, Criswell, Slaten, Weissert, I Campbell, Fitts and few fringy pitchers,) but we knew Gio was out for the year and traded Sale, while also losing Paxton, Schreiber and Kluber.) The net gain in numbers was minimal. (I won't get into the quality aspect.)

We knew the injuries was not going to end with Gio, and sure enough, Whitlock went down after 4 starts. Others missed some time, here and there, and we also lost some time from some of our best pen arms, like Martin and Slaten.

Ideally, we go into 2025 with Criswell, Fitts and Priester as AAA rotation depth. We go into 2025 with Weissert, I Campbell, Kelly, Booser and maybe others as AAA depth, not our 7th and 8th RP'ers. We go into 2025 without looking to August, which turns into September then never for signees like Hendriks and Paxton from 3 years back. Those are failed plans. If we can't learn from those mistakes, we ain't getting anywhere!

I know some dislike the slot ranking idea, but to me it highlights what we need more precisely. Here is what we need to be a top 5-10 pitching staff.

1. Better Defense. (Some metrics show our current staff is near top 10, when the fielding is removed.)

2. This template for winter additions:

SP1 _____

SP2 Houck

SP3 _____

SP4 Bello

SP5 Giolito/Crawford (Criswell, Fitts and Priester in AAA)

Closer ____

Set Up Slaten

Set Up Hendriks

LH RP _____

RP5 Whitlock

RP6 Crawford (Fitts/Criswell if Crawford in rotation)

RP7 Winckowski

RP8 Fulmer

(Bernardino, I Campbell, Weissert, Guerrero, kelly, Booser, Penrod & Horn in AAA.)

14 minutes ago, Maddie Landis said:

Story's health could benefit from playing 2B instead of SS. 

Probably.

It all depends on Mayer, since nobody else can be an even average defensive SS.

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

I could not agree more. Adding pitchers, ideally more than we think we need, allows the decent pitchers we already have to pitch in roles that better suit their skillsets.

This should not be some unrealistic dream by a few fans. It needs to be the plan by management.

 

Another point I keep harping on -- maybe more appropriate for the bullpen thread -- is that reliable starting pitching that goes deep in games is vital to the preservation of the relief arms.

Instead, we've seen bullpen overuse and subsequent burn-out every season since 2018.

Adding an innings-eater like Giolito may have been a plan to save the pen this year, though I questioned that from the beginning because if he continued to suck like he had in '22 and '23, then Cora would have to replace Gio on the mound too often too early...

... that is, if the Sox were really in it to win it, and not just to fill jerseys to field a team so they could play games and sell tickets.

37 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Another point I keep harping on -- maybe more appropriate for the bullpen thread -- is that reliable starting pitching that goes deep in games is vital to the preservation of the relief arms.

Instead, we've seen bullpen overuse and subsequent burn-out every season since 2018.

Adding an innings-eater like Giolito may have been a plan to save the pen this year, though I questioned that from the beginning because if he continued to suck like he had in '22 and '23, then Cora would have to replace Gio on the mound too often too early...

... that is, if the Sox were really in it to win it, and not just to fill jerseys to field a team so they could play games and sell tickets.

Again, total agreement. The other big plus about adding SP'ers that can go deep in games to save the pen, is that it would push some of our starters that do fibe for 2-3 innings into the long roles in the pen (over guys like Chase Anderson and Keller.) This allows for a few early yanks in bad games and still "saves" the set up men and closer for only key situations, and hopefully not 2 times every 3 games.

To me, this could be a good pen:

Closer: Addition

Set UP: Slaten, Hendriks and add a Sewald type or LHP

Mid-Long Relief: Whitlock, Crawford, Criswell

That's 7 out of 8 RP'ers. I think we can find one from the long list to fill the 8 slot, well enough.

Instead, we start Whit and Crawford, which hurts the pen in several ways.

6 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Cora always seemed like a guy who did believe in rest days.  Maybe he looked at the Braves and thought they were succeeding by not resting.  But as you say the payoff of this for the Braves looks questionable now.

The Red Sox sure need to figure out why they run out of steam after the ASB each year in recent years.  

I don't think there's one right answer.  The 2018 Sox prospered in part--or so it seemed--with rest days for everyone.  Now Cora says he wants his best players to play everyday, and that could work too.  

As for the post-ASG record, I think the pitching stumbled for the obvious reason it was always under-resourced, which began last winter when the new CBO dumped Sale--while paying him $17M to pitch for the Braves--and hired Giolito, who has been on the IL the entire season.  

The hitting has been up and down, mostly, I think because of a lack of experience combined with opposing teams having good "books" on the Sox hitters weaknesses.  I do not, for example, think what we call "RISP disease" is accidental.  I think opposing teams know exactly how to pitch to our guys when men are in scoring position.  

To me the perfect example of that is that you have to be just stupid not to know Devers loves swinging at breaking balls, inside or outside the strike zone, and struggles against fast balls. 

I think a team weakness is how Cora loads his lineup with lefty bats against righty starters and with righty bats against lefty starters.  He has good reason to do that, but it can be a problem when the opposing manager brings in righty reliever to replace a lefty starter or vice versa.   Duran"s OPS vs righties is .925 and against lefties .665, for example.   Devers is 1.008 vs righties and .689 vs lefties.  Abreu is .501 vs lefties and .866 vs righties.  O'Neill is 1.188 vs lefties and .727 vs righties.   Wong's OPS vs righties is .728 and lefties .876.  

Cora can and does PH for off-handed batters, when the moment seems right.

Ideally, we have 9 players that hit lefties and righties, well, but I'm fine with a couple platoons, here and there.

I'd love to see an Abreu-Ref DH platoon, with the other being the 4th OF'er or PH'er.

The DHam-Romy platoon stabilized 2B to some degree- something we have not had since 2018, except for Story's brief stint at 2B.

Everyone else does not have major career L-R splits. Duran used to, but he's near okay vs LHPs, now (.665 is the new low norm, these days.)

I know our O has come up short during this collapse, but our O is not a top priority to me, especially with our top 5 ML ready prospects all being non-pitchers.

35 minutes ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

Didn't they try that the previous 2yrs?

0 innings at 2B in 2023. 147 at SS.

It was just 2022, when Bogey was still here, when he played 2B and only 2B.

6 minutes ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

Doesn't change my point, playing him at 2B didn't prevent him from getting injured.

 

No, and I think the change of position would only very slightly lessen the chance of an in game injury.

To me, it's more about Mayer's defense at SS and his health issues. If we think Mayer is really good on D, I'd move Story, but IMO, Mayer is not "that good," right now. Other than Mayer, I don't see anyone else that might even come close to Story's SS defense, which I view as elite and GG caliber.

The idea of one of these two playing 3B is intriguing, as well, assuming we trade Casas and move Devers to 1B, or we trade Yoshida and Abreu and move Casas to DH and Devers to 1B.

This might work well, especially, if we get something back for Yoshi + Abreu.

C: Teel-Wong

1B: Devers-Casas

2B: Campbell- DHam

SS: Story- Mayer

3B: Mayer-Devers

LF: Duran-Refsnyder

CF: Rafaela-Duran

RF: Anthony-Rafsnyder

DH: Casas-Campbell-EValdez

This looks very impressive, to me.