Time for Valentine to go

[SoxSport]

The team is out of control. V has no leverage. They need new ownership. The whole organization is

rotten. Blow it up.

 

Imagine-Crawford hits a HR last night, and today he is told to sit. what a bunch of *******s.

[Bellhorn04]

The team is out of control. V has no leverage. They need new ownership. The whole organization is

rotten. Blow it up.

 

Imagine-Crawford hits a HR last night, and today he is told to sit. what a bunch of *******s.

 

As another poster pointed out, Crawford had a day off Thursday, day before yesterday. f***ing lunacy.

[a700hitter]

Oh it has been even worse than the worst of both worlds. V was castrated early on and has not been anything like the manager that the Sox were purported to want. I say purported to want since they caved so quickly that I suspect what they really wanted was a facade....the illusion of somebody building the players into some sort of a team playing solid, cohesive baseball hoping instead that the players would police themselves and at least out of embarrassment not allow another complete collapse after the 2011 debacle.

 

Along with that, instead of getting players uniting in sort of the us against him "we will show him" group mentality that 700 was hoping for, we got the "hey we know how to bury this guy cause we just buried the last guy" mentality which always breaks down into me first thinking.

 

While at the end of the day, they have played so poorly that I am inclined to think this manager vs player stuff is for the most part background noise, It may well have had an impact in the most important element of baseball....the starting pitching. The staff has been leaderless all year with Beckett showing no interest in leading this bunch and only occasional interest in his own performances and Lester simply being incapable in that regard....something some of us have felt and said for a long time now. The complete fiasco that is Josh Beckett as a Red Sox may in part have been aided by some of the early rancor between Beckett and V.

 

In truth, I just don't think they are that good. Few of them work hard at their games. The exceptions are Ortiz and Pedey but they are exceptions, not the rule. Many simply are just not that talented or have talent but don't appear to work at their game, certainly don't work at it effectively and that is where this me first, I know what I am doing s*** really breaks down. Maybe Agons did know what he was doing....insisting that he would solve his own issues but his slump was interminable and he still has not been the hitter we hoped we were getting when we signed him.

 

The younger players like WMB fall into bad habits...the older players seem oblivious to what is going on around them, making no effort to play cohesive team baseball.

 

We revel in a Cody Ross in the main I think because so many have performed so poorly and Ross is a stand out in this group. However nothing about Cody Ross is different because he is a Red Sox player. The wall in Fenway helps him but he is a career platoon player and has done nothing to prove himself otherwise here. Again had so many others not performed so poorly, Ross would likely not be as noticed for his positives as he has been.

 

Another truth I think is that this group of players never gave V a chance preferring the we will bury him route as I stated earlier. I guess they wanted to show management that they would revolt against any effort to use the manager's position to draw them into some sort of representative team and would not even do it in spite of management. That is the equivalent as players of saying to management, we are going to leave you with nothing. While it is extremely difficult to draw a direct line between this sort of ******** and the actual play of individual players or the team as a whole I think it is what ultimately takes a mediocre team and turns it into a nuclear holocaust. It does not turn a good team into a bad team. However it brings out the very worst in a team that is just not that good to begin with and is finally a factor in allowing the whole thing to devolve and unravel as the Sox are unraveling.

 

They avoided open mockery for the most part at Fenway during the September collapse. I don't think they will avoid it this year.

I think you are dead on right in this post about everything, especially the "we buried the last guy" attitude. I think it was a "we buried the last guy and we liked him" mentality. I think unfortunately, Pedroia failed us in this regard. He stepped to the front of the line and let the whole clubhouse know that the inmates were going to run the ship with his "we don't do things that way" remark in Spring Training. That and Cherries rebuke castrated Booby V for all intents and purposes. It became the players clubhouse, and they basically said FU to the manager. Well, they ran the team right into the ground. I love Pedey, but he really should have shut his mouth at that time. I think he was close to Tito and was going to resent any manager who did anti-Tito things and he shot off his mouth. Leaders sometimes don't realize the effect their words will have. If Albers had said it, it would not have made a difference, but Pedey said it and the words echoed loudly in the clubhouse.

[wyo-sox]

I think you are dead on right in this post about everything' date=' especially the "we buried the last guy" attitude. I think it was a "we buried the last guy and we liked him" mentality. I think unfortunately, Pedroia failed us in this regard. He stepped to the front of the line and let the whole clubhouse know that the inmates were going to run the ship with his "we don't do things that way" remark in Spring Training. That and Cherries rebuke castrated Booby V for all intents and purposes. It became the players clubhouse, and they basically said FU to the manager. Well, they ran the team right into the ground. I love Pedey, but he really should have shut his mouth at that time. I think he was close to Tito and was going to resent any manager who did anti-Tito things and he shot off his mouth. Leaders sometimes don't realize the effect their words will have. If Albers had said it, it would not have made a difference, but Pedey said it and the words echoed loudly in the clubhouse.[/quote']

 

My guess this is spot on.

[SoxSport]

I think you are dead on right in this post about everything' date=' especially the "we buried the last guy" attitude. I think it was a "we buried the last guy and we liked him" mentality. I think unfortunately, Pedroia failed us in this regard. He stepped to the front of the line and let the whole clubhouse know that the inmates were going to run the ship with his "we don't do things that way" remark in Spring Training. That and Cherries rebuke castrated Booby V for all intents and purposes. It became the players clubhouse, and they basically said FU to the manager. Well, they ran the team right into the ground. I love Pedey, but he really should have shut his mouth at that time. I think he was close to Tito and was going to resent any manager who did anti-Tito things and he shot off his mouth. Leaders sometimes don't realize the effect their words will have. If Albers had said it, it would not have made a difference, but Pedey said it and the words echoed loudly in the clubhouse.[/quote']

 

What you're talking about here is an organizational failure-- a management failure right up the line to Henry. The result is the inmates are now running the asylum. Valentine clearly hasn't been able to overcome this because he apparently has no leverage. He made a big mistake agreeing to manage this team under those conditions. His authority should have been spelled out before he took the job. He is now caught in a power struggle between him, the front office, the players, the trainers and the coaches. It's a mess. Henry has to unravel all this or sell the team, and let the new owners start from scratch.

 

I don't think anybody realized what a poor administrator Henry is. Perhaps a clue was given when he made a fool of himself coming on that WEEI show and cutting Crawford's legs off.

If I were Crawford, I would simply ask to be traded. That would put them in a fix--they deserve. If I were Valentine, I would simply quit. He has enough reason to, at this point.

[boxajoe]

Really your going to tell me that if Joe Torre or Tony Larussa came in that these problems would continue ? No.....because they r real managers that would identify the problem by bringing visibility to it, and would then demand the front office do what needs to be done to correct it. They would have the respect of the players and front office and it would happen.

[SoxSport]

As another poster pointed out' date=' Crawford had a day off Thursday, day before yesterday. f***ing lunacy.[/quote']

 

No. What it is--is a classic power struggle. How many more of these Valentine loses before he quits? That's what they want. The front office still wants it's own guy as manager. That is abundantly clear.

[SoxSport]

Really your going to tell me that if Joe Torre or Tony Larussa came in that these problems would continue ? No.....because they r real managers that would identify the problem by bringing visibility to it' date=' and would then demand the front office do what needs to be done to correct it. They would have the respect of the players and front office and it would happen.[/quote']

 

They wouldn't take the job in Boston. Not under the present conditions.

[Bellhorn04]

No. What it is--is a classic power struggle. How many more of these Valentine loses before he quits? That's what they want. The front office still wants it's own guy as manager. That is abundantly clear.

 

I'm sure Valentine is frustrated but I don't think he'll quit. He's got nothing to gain by doing that.

[Bellhorn04]

This team is configured to allow everybody to blame somebody else for the mess. Cherries can blame Henry and Lucchino for not giving him more money. Henry and Lucchino can blame Epstein for the bad deals he locked them into. Valentine can blame his bosses for not giving him more control and Francona for leaving the clubhouse in a mess. The hitters can blame the starting pitchers. And the starting pitchers can blame McClure, Salty and the left side of the infield.

[jung]

Excellent Bellhorn, you have identified Red Sox physics which I just described in another thread. s*** does not even flow downhill in Boston...gravity does not even apply here where s*** flows in circles.

[boxajoe]

Well said

[jung]

I was just watching the rerun of the Baseball show on Comcast. This show is from yesterday (Saturday).

 

I had not heard about Pedroia talking about the need for Crawford and Ells to see more pitches until viewing this show. Apparently Pedey did not "go" to the media but Buckley asked him about something...maybe he had seen Pedey showing some frustration. We saw Pedey actively talking to Lester not last night but the start before that. So it does look like Pedey is taking a more active role.

 

The Baseball Show crew was debating whether Pedey should have answered any questions about comments made to Crawford and Ells. You would knock me over with a feather if Pedey did not talk to the players directly before answering any questions from the media and the degree to which certain guys just go up there hackin' away has been an issue for me for a long time now. I think Ells has been somewhat more selective than Crawford has been. Crawford has still just been meat to pitches low and outside. He just cannot lay off of them, seemingly regardless of how far off the plate. He just keeps reachin' out there and reachin' out there farther and farther. His new stance does seem to allow him to get to more of them and maybe do more with pitches that are truly within his reach. However it does not appear to have helped him see those pitches any better.

 

I am actually happy to hear about Pedey taking on some of the bad hitting habits some of these guys are getting into. Maybe that also means he is trying to help WMB with his insistence on trying to pull low and outside pitches.

[NativeBostonian]

The team is out of control. V has no leverage. They need new ownership. The whole organization is

rotten. Blow it up.

 

Imagine-Crawford hits a HR last night, and today he is told to sit. what a bunch of *******s.

 

I believe this has a lot to do with Cherington. He made it clear that he didn't want Bobby and by doing that, he set a poor example of how Bobby should be treated.

[jung]

Can you really blame BC though? He is no more than a glorified errand boy.

 

We all knew that V was LL's choice, LL's guy. Where was LL to rein in BC and support the Manager when the Youk/V mess came up? Why didn't LL force the organization to support V as opposed to cutting the legs out from under him? While we know BC wanted a different choice we also know that LL runs the Red Sox and LL wanted V.

 

or....

 

If in fact LL really wanted V as a means of creating the illusion of doing something to bring the players in line then why didn't they just let V in on the plan right from the start? V is not a complete idiot. If they had just told V exactly what they expected of him, V would likely not have gone after Youk publicly like that. It should be clear to everybody that V can tone it down as he has toned it down since then. Would it not have been better for everybody if they just set expectations for V before hand instead of after the fact when it took a public disrobing?

 

I would give more of the blame here to LL and in part JH.

[NativeBostonian]

Can you really blame BC though? He is no more than a glorified errand boy.

 

We all knew that V was LL's choice, LL's guy. Where was LL to rein in BC and support the Manager when the Youk/V mess came up? Why didn't LL force the organization to support V as opposed to cutting the legs out from under him? While we know BC wanted a different choice we also know that LL runs the Red Sox and LL wanted V.

 

or....

 

If in fact LL really wanted V as a means of creating the illusion of doing something to bring the players in line then why didn't they just let V in on the plan right from the start? V is not a complete idiot. If they had just told V exactly what they expected of him, V would likely not have gone after Youk publicly like that. It should be clear to everybody that V can tone it down as he has toned it down since then. Would it not have been better for everybody if they just set expectations for V before hand instead of after the fact when it took a public disrobing?

 

I would give more of the blame here to LL and in part JH.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Ben really is no more than Jon Henry's bitch. He was given the keys to the Lamborghini and told just don’t scratch it. I believe there wasn’t much expectation for him to do anything else, but to keep the ship up right. But, he didn’t do that, he manage to help it sink even faster. I think we need a new manager, pitching coach, and GM.

[rhfil]

I like Valentine but he almost cost the Sox that game yesterday. Top of the sixth, score 2-0, Ellsbury leads off with a double. Does Crawford but him over to third? No he hits away and a guy who can not possibly hit the ball to the right of the diamond lines to Jeter who knocks the ball down and Crawford is safe at first but Ellsbury can not advance. Then Pedroia also does not bunt but at least flies out deep enough to advance Ellsbury to third. But Gonzales grounds into a double play ending the threat.

Why is it the Red Sox have been historically unable to do the little things that make for a succesful team such as sacrifice bunting, holding runners, etc.?

[a700hitter]

I like Valentine but he almost cost the Sox that game yesterday. Top of the sixth, score 2-0, Ellsbury leads off with a double. Does Crawford but him over to third? No he hits away and a guy who can not possibly hit the ball to the right of the diamond lines to Jeter who knocks the ball down and Crawford is safe at first but Ellsbury can not advance. Then Pedroia also does not bunt but at least flies out deep enough to advance Ellsbury to third. But Gonzales grounds into a double play ending the threat.

Why is it the Red Sox have been historically unable to do the little things that make for a succesful team such as sacrifice bunting, holding runners, etc.?

At the point when it was 1st and 3rd with one out it was a slam dunk that they should have sent the runner at 1st. They had 2 of the fastest guys in the baseball on the bases. If Crawford goes, there is no way they throw throught to 2nd base with Ellsbury on 3rd base or Ells will score. It should have been 2nd and 3rd after the first pitch to AGon. The Yankees would have had to play the IF in and who knows what happens from there. We do know that Agon could not ground into a DP. I think Bobby V's problem is that he is always thinking a couple of batters, if not innings, ahead, so he does a bad job of managing in the moment.

[Elktonnick]

At the point when it was 1st and 3rd with one out it was a slam dunk that they should have sent the runner at 1st. They had 2 of the fastest guys in the baseball on the bases. If Crawford goes' date=' there is no way they throw throught to 2nd base with Ellsbury on 3rd base or Ells will score. It should have been 2nd and 3rd after the first pitch to AGon. The Yankees would have had to play the IF in and who knows what happens from there. We do know that Agon could not ground into a DP. I think Bobby V's problem is that he is always thinking a couple of batters, if not innings, ahead, so he does a bad job of managing in the moment.[/quote']

 

If Crawford steals the Yankees walk A-Gon. You want Crawford on 1st so Texeriera holds the runner opening a bigger hole on the right side. The fault there lies with A-Gon not the manager. A-Gon is hot he got two hits. He is one of the highest paid players in the game. You don't take the bat out of his hand by moving Crawford. The move was discussed by Hershiser and Francona and as I recall they both agreed to let A-Gon hit. The fact was that A-Gon let a cookie go by and swung at a bad pitch out and away which he rolled over hitting a weak grounder. If it weren't A-Gon at the plate, it would have been handled differently, IMHO.

[SoxSport]

I'm beginning to think V is managing with one hand tied behind his back. I think the organization has a set way of doing things--even in a game--and the manager has to tow the line and connect the dots.

 

Crawford stole 3 base his first game back. Then stopped. Ellsbury has stolen little since his return.

The speed of neither has been used at the top of the order. Then CC takes a mysterious day off--after he had a day off the day before.

 

You don't know what's going on with this organization. That's why it's hard to 2nd guess the "manager."

[a700hitter]

If Crawford steals the Yankees walk A-Gon. You want Crawford on 1st so Texeriera holds the runner opening a bigger hole on the right side. The fault there lies with A-Gon not the manager. A-Gon is hot he got two hits. He is one of the highest paid players in the game. You don't take the bat out of his hand by moving Crawford. The move was discussed by Hershiser and Francona and as I recall they both agreed to let A-Gon hit. The fact was that A-Gon let a cookie go by and swung at a bad pitch out and away which he rolled over hitting a weak grounder. If it weren't A-Gon at the plate' date=' it would have been handled differently, IMHO.[/quote']Ellsbury's and Crawford's and Crawford's major tool is their speed. If you get them on first and third with one out but don't use it, I don't see the reason to be paying a premium to have that kind of speed, because there will always be a big hitter up behind them. Plus, it was the 6th inning. I don't see Girardi putting on extra base runners. Cody Ross was on deck. I don't think he walks Gonzo. Maybe they throw to second and it turns into running bases. Okay, at least freakin hit and run. Do something. They tied those two gazelles to the bases and the ssuper slow-footed first baseman was easy pickings for a DP on any ground ball. We had been hitting into DP's all day. Ross is more of a flyball hitter. I move those runners, use their plus plus speed to see if I can make something happen.

[jung]

Well now 700 you have hit on one of the reasons why getting Crawford was a bad move. What are the Red Sox going to do and what were they ever going to do with two guys at the top of the lineup like Ells and Crawford...one fine...two?????? The Red Sox have never been and are not now that kind of offense.

 

That said I have always believed you put the opponent in a deeper hole. Steal the base because they are literally going to give you second base. If they walk Agons they have walked the bases loaded and are stuck pitching to Ross with nowhere to put him. There is still the chance that they would not have walked Agons but had they done so, that is still a deeper hole than runners at 1st and 3rd. The double play is already in force with runners at 1st and 3rd. By stealing the base, you either get runners at 2nd and 3rd and AGons at the plate or bases loaded with Ross at the plate and nowhere to put him.

 

Because of the Sox offensive profile, it is still a tough choice to make, tougher than if you are the A's for example. However I would have stolen the base and taken my chances that they pitch to Agons or walk the bases loaded and pitch to Ross.

[rhfil]

If Crawford bunts Ellsbury over to third he then scores easily on Pedroia's fly out and the game is over in nine. I had hoped that Valentine would insist that the players develop small ball skills and that he would use them. Apparently that has not happened. Maybe if he has one more year and some real management support it will happen next year.

My complaint about Francona is that he was a one note manager. Only knew one way to play and the team reflected that. No small ball. Concentrate on the batter and ignore the runner at first who goes to second and then third and scores easily.

And why didn't McClure and Francona take action to straighten out the pitching staff last fall? Were they not aware of what was going on? McClure really has to go

[Elktonnick]

Ellsbury's and Crawford's and Crawford's major tool is their speed. If you get them on first and third with one out but don't use it' date=' I don't see the reason to be paying a premium to have that kind of speed, because there will always be a big hitter up behind them. Plus, it was the 6th inning. I don't see Girardi putting on extra base runners. Cody Ross was on deck. I don't think he walks Gonzo. Maybe they throw to second and it turns into running bases. Okay, at least freakin hit and run. Do something. They tied those two gazelles to the bases and the ssuper slow-footed first baseman was easy pickings for a DP on any ground ball. We had been hitting into DP's all day. Ross is more of a flyball hitter. I move those runners, use their plus plus speed to see if I can make something happen.[/quote']

 

If you noticed Crawford was reluctant to run the other two times he had the opportunity to do so.. The ESPN annoucers made note of it. So your theory is fine on paper but it seemed no one thought it a good idea to execute it. Wonder why? Perhaps because it wasn't a good idea given the circumstances.

[Elktonnick]

If Crawford bunts Ellsbury over to third he then scores easily on Pedroia's fly out and the game is over in nine. I had hoped that Valentine would insist that the players develop small ball skills and that he would use them. Apparently that has not happened. Maybe if he has one more year and some real management support it will happen next year.

My complaint about Francona is that he was a one note manager. Only knew one way to play and the team reflected that. No small ball. Concentrate on the batter and ignore the runner at first who goes to second and then third and scores easily.

And why didn't McClure and Francona take action to straighten out the pitching staff last fall? Were they not aware of what was going on? McClure really has to go

 

McClure wasn't in Boston last year. Crawford wasn't in spring training this year if you recall. Plus Crawford did try to bunt the other day and it didn't work out.

[jung]

I cannot believe how poor their bunting skills are generally. I have never seen the bunt turned into such an adventure before. The entire team seems incapable of laying one down. Yet another area where they just often seem ridiculous compared to their "peers".

[a700hitter]

If you noticed Crawford was reluctant to run the other two times he had the opportunity to do so.. The ESPN annoucers made note of it. So your theory is fine on paper but it seemed no one thought it a good idea to execute it. Wonder why? Perhaps because it wasn't a good idea given the circumstances.

Well, as it turns out, running him couldn't have worked out any worse. I would have run him.

[Elktonnick]

Well' date=' as it turns out, running him couldn't have worked out any worse. I would have run him.[/quote']

 

The percentages were with not running him. Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you!

[a700hitter]

The percentages were with not running him. Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you!

I don't think the percentages were stacked one way or the other. The speed could have caused some havoc. They may not have let Crawford take the base uncontested. They might have decoyed throwing through but had Jeter run in for the throw and try to get Ells at the plate. The DP percentage with Gonzo were probably higher than with Ross. The HR percentage was probably in Gonzo's favor because of the short RF porch. I don't think the percentages were greatly stacked one way or the other. If Salty or Punto was up behind Gonzo, you keep the runners anchored, but in this situation I run them.

[MJantomaso]

Did anyone else like to see Bobby V and Beckett fired up last night? It showed me that they don't think this season is over and it showed how much that game meant to them last night. I thought I saw a little team chemistry last night and wouldn't be surprised if this team starts to kick it in gear.