Why can't Red Sox aces get through an inning ?

[boxajoe]

Why can't Red Sox aces Beckett and Lester get through an inning without allowing base runners ? Is the problem the catcher calling the games ? The pitching coach ? The actual pitchers ? I do not remember a staff in a long time that just gives up first inning runs like this one. In addition they virtually never seem to have 1,2,3 innings. I am thankful for Bucholz and Cooks recent performances, but why the exorbanant amount of base runners by this staff ? Thoughts anyone ?

[2004 ALCS]

Um... because they aren't aces?

[iortiz]

We have no aces.

[boxajoe]

Exactly..well said

[boxajoe]

Very true

[Big Papis Ghost]

Bring back Tek as player coach !

[SoxFanForsyth]

They can. Pedro got through innings w/out giving up baserunners quite often.

 

That's the last ace the Sox had, though.

[AGomREDSOX15]

Beckett > Lester any day

[FenwayWest]

Nah guys, Lester and Beckett are Aces... They're not playing like it, but they are career ace's on any squad.

 

I agree though, they need to get their s*** together.

[SoxSport]

The big question is why they can't get through the first and second inning without being hit.

Teams are scoring a lot of their runs early. That's a flag something is wrong with preparation.

[jung]

Lester is not what he was....he can be again if the Sox get a legitimate 1 for him to follow and a good pitching coach to help him through the rough spots.

 

Beckett may be good again but not here. Beckett is done here. He does not want to be here and does not care.

 

So for me, Lester can come back and can come back here under he right circumstances. Beckett can come back as well but not here.

 

Why do I think Lester can come back....one big reason is because he still eats innings....in truth he has not been the big stud ace of the Sox staff...he has been the innings eater of the Sox staff. He will likely do decently in innings pitched his year as well but his performances have been in steady decline over those innings. I tend to pay attention to K/9 for a starting pitcher in the AL East because you have to be able to K guys in the AL East. Pitching to contact can be a rough way to go in the AL East and Lester's K/9 has been in steady decline for years now. But...he still eats innings. So I think under the right circumstances, Lester will come back here.

[SCM33]

Beckett > Lester any day

 

No.

[SCM33]

Lester is not what he was....he can be again if the Sox get a legitimate 1 for him to follow and a good pitching coach to help him through the rough spots.

 

Beckett may be good again but not here. Beckett is done here. He does not want to be here and does not care.

 

So for me, Lester can come back and can come back here under he right circumstances. Beckett can come back as well but not here.

 

Why do I think Lester can come back....one big reason is because he still eats innings....in truth he has not been the big stud ace of the Sox staff...he has been the innings eater of the Sox staff. He will likely do decently in innings pitched his year as well but his performances have been in steady decline over those innings. I tend to pay attention to K/9 for a starting pitcher in the AL East because you have to be able to K guys in the AL East. Pitching to contact can be a rough way to go in the AL East and Lester's K/9 has been in steady decline for years now. But...he still eats innings. So I think under the right circumstances, Lester will come back here.

 

Welcome aboard.

[jung]

You are right SoxSport...we had this discussion in a different thread where I was chiding V for his comments about trying to figure out why the starters were giving up so many runs early. I do not believe they are prepared either mentally or physically at the start of the game. I think their mental preparation is likely to be sorely lacking.

 

Again I really really think Lester needs a legitimate 1 to follow plus a good pitching coach and I think Beckett needs to be outta' here.

[jung]

Welcome aboard.

 

I was way late to the party on the Beckett needs to be outta here deal mainly because I did not see how at the time in question we could have gotten enough back out of him to have avoided paying his salary and would have gotten very little in return for him.

 

I actually think that there is a silver lining relative to Beckett in having kept him this year. I do think the change of scenery argument will be accepted as legitimate in his case. He can veto a trade so that actually works for us I think because the receiving team will know that Beckett has approved the move. Frankly I gave up on us getting a legitimate 1 for this rotation before this season started. Without that, I don't really see that much else was going to produce much of an improvement in our starting pitching....so trying to be optimistic about something....this may actually work out.

 

However if we still try to retain Beckett past the end of this season, I am likely to go right off the deep end. He has to be gone.

[SemperFi Sox]

Lester or beckett better be gone at the deadline or the little respect I had for Cherington is gone.

[SoxSport]

I see this morning Morales goes to the bullpen and Lester stays in the rotation. Morales has been the better starter lately, and Lester needs to work out his problems in the bullpen. But that's not the way the Red Sox management works. They don't always do things logically. It's personalities first--not the team.

[redsoxbeatz]

It's tough for this season.

 

Beckett has been performing better than Lester. Sure, he has that rough "Dice-K" inning but he still is giving us quality starts give or take. Lester has been a relative disaster. I'd like to see Beckett go at the deadline but only if he is replaced with an "ace" or at least a #2 SP. But, Lester has been so horrible I can't see the Red Sox doing s*** past September w/Lester on the mound THIS season.

 

Keep Lester, Trade Beckett, Look for playoffs NEXT year. That's what it feels like is the best option due to the fact that no quality SP can be had w/o sacrificing the farm probz till the offseason.

[SoxSport]

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2012/07/start_to_finish_1.html

 

Wilbur questions that 3-2 pitch by Lester to his old pal Youks, and wonders why Morales is going to the bullpen. Not to mention pinch hitting Punto for Ciriaco--a better hitter.

 

Are the good ole' boys from the 07 team rebelling against V? That might explain why the top 3 starters have sucked this year. Seems that all those millions isn't enough to motivate these guys.

[jung]

While I noted Lester's k/9 as having slumped perceptibly last year and now this year as well, Beckett's k/9 has also been headed south since his high water marks early in his career. Beckett's reduction has been much more gradual over time up until this year when it has fallen off a cliff edge but the reduction over time is still there and Beckett has not shown signs of even approaching 9 as a k/9 since 2007 and has not actually gotten it to 9 or above since 2002.

 

While innings pitched are truly the most important stat for starting pitchers, I tend to look at k/9 next after innings pitched for starting pitchers in the hitting rich AL East.

 

for both Lester and Beckett while their k/9 numbers represent a big reduction, the trend for both has been the wrong way now for years.

 

I do think the Sox while having two hitting coaches don't seem to have any pitching coaches that can help guys get through tough times especially if they involve regaining some aspect of their mechanics.

 

I suppose you could argue that k/9 is not that big a deal but I think it really is a big deal for starters pitching in the AL East, particularly if they have relied on pretty sporty k/9 numbers in their careers on the whole. What is the other thing you could point to and say could definitely be helping drive those k/9 numbers south.....SALTY.

 

This is the first year the Sox have relied on Salty to catch the bulk of games and while he has made some progress defensively in things like throwing, he still gives pitchers the worse targets on average of any starting catcher I have ever seen in the bigs and the target is just one aspect of handling pitchers. It is however one that I can look at every single game that Salty catches.

 

Many of us have pointed to the Sox continually using poor defenders in the most critical defensive positions on the field as one that really has an impact on their ability to win close, tight baseball games. At the end of the day Salty may well be an added burden to this pitching staff that it just can't handle. While k/9 for both of these guys has been falling annually, this year it has fallen off a cliff edge and I have to think that Salty has a part in it when I constantly see him pushing his pitchers closer to the middle of the plate and farther away from the corners and the edges.

[a700hitter]

While I noted Lester's k/9 as having slumped perceptibly last year and now this year as well, Beckett's k/9 has also been headed south since his high water marks early in his career. Beckett's reduction has been much more gradual over time up until this year when it has fallen off a cliff edge but the reduction over time is still there and Beckett has not shown signs of even approaching 9 as a k/9 since 2007 and has not actually gotten it to 9 or above since 2002.

 

While innings pitched are truly the most important stat for starting pitchers, I tend to look at k/9 next after innings pitched for starting pitchers in the hitting rich AL East.

 

for both Lester and Beckett while their k/9 numbers represent a big reduction, the trend for both has been the wrong way now for years.

 

I do think the Sox while having two hitting coaches don't seem to have any pitching coaches that can help guys get through tough times especially if they involve regaining some aspect of their mechanics.

 

I suppose you could argue that k/9 is not that big a deal but I think it really is a big deal for starters pitching in the AL East, particularly if they have relied on pretty sporty k/9 numbers in their careers on the whole. What is the other thing you could point to and say could definitely be helping drive those k/9 numbers south.....SALTY.

 

This is the first year the Sox have relied on Salty to catch the bulk of games and while he has made some progress defensively in things like throwing, he still gives pitchers the worse targets on average of any starting catcher I have ever seen in the bigs and the target is just one aspect of handling pitchers. It is however one that I can look at every single game that Salty catches.

 

Many of us have pointed to the Sox continually using poor defenders in the most critical defensive positions on the field as one that really has an impact on their ability to win close, tight baseball games. At the end of the day Salty may well be an added burden to this pitching staff that it just can't handle. While k/9 for both of these guys has been falling annually, this year it has fallen off a cliff edge and I have to think that Salty has a part in it when I constantly see him pushing his pitchers closer to the middle of the plate and farther away from the corners and the edges.

I ahve been posting this for weeks. This guys numbers are in decline and this year's numbers are down drastically. His performance is not about bad luck on balls in play. His strikeout numbers bear that out.

[a700hitter]

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2012/07/start_to_finish_1.html

 

Wilbur questions that 3-2 pitch by Lester to his old pal Youks, and wonders why Morales is going to the bullpen. Not to mention pinch hitting Punto for Ciriaco--a better hitter.

 

Are the good ole' boys from the 07 team rebelling against V? That might explain why the top 3 starters have sucked this year. Seems that all those millions isn't enough to motivate these guys.

I question the 3-1 pitch. Remember that Remy and probably everyone watching thought Lester was working around Youk. I think Youk thought the same. Lester fed him a 3-1 fastball that caught him completely off guard. If you have it on DVR, watch it again. Youk steps out and looks at Lester with an amused smile. When i saw that smile, I though, Lester had better not come over the middle again, because Youk was now ready. Lester did and Youk was ready.

[kapsis21]

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2012/07/start_to_finish_1.html

 

Wilbur questions that 3-2 pitch by Lester to his old pal Youks, and wonders why Morales is going to the bullpen. Not to mention pinch hitting Punto for Ciriaco--a better hitter.

 

Are the good ole' boys from the 07 team rebelling against V? That might explain why the top 3 starters have sucked this year. Seems that all those millions isn't enough to motivate these guys.

 

nailed it

[redsoxbeatz]

The Red Sox have enough starting pitching depth not to have to rush into the market for rotation help, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports (on Twitter).

 

horseshit. Lester is junk. Beckett is doing okay, maybe better than okay but I feel nervous when he starts: not good. Doubront's arm is sure to fall off by September. Our pitchers become: Buchholz & Cook, since Morales is in the pen for some stupid reason (maybe to protect his un-stretched arm?)

 

P.S. FIRE BOBBY V!! I like his lineup changes, his bunting & base stealing happy management but he's sort of a douche & players don't like him. Get someone else!

 

For the first time in quite sometime, the 49-39 Pirates are buyers at this year's trade deadline. According to Nick Cafardo, the Pirates have interest in trading for Jon Lester, along with Cole Hamels, Zack Greinke, Ryan Dempster and Matt Garza. "It doesn't appear the Sox would deal unless they got exceptional value back, and it doesn't appear the Pirates would part with pitching prospect Gerrit Cole, whom the Sox would want," Cafardo said.

Dumping Lester (& Beckett) might not be a bad idea. Red Sox would have to pick up some exceptional prospects. I'd love to get Cole http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=543037

 

Wandy Rodriguez

The lowly Astros will almost certainly be sellers, and the Red Sox' top priority at the deadline will likely be starting pitching. Wandy Rodriguez fits that bill with an ERA in the 3.00 range for the fifth consecutive season at 3.51.

[kapsis21]

I think I am leaning towards BV getting fired midseason if someone has the guts to do it. is it his fault i dont think so. but a if the players dont like him and he keeps making blunders on walking Matsui who was .167 but yet want to keep pitching to Youk.. stupid stupid call.

 

and these are just the 2 games. he has made more blunders that has lost us some games.

[jung]

Seems to me that while Beckett should go either during or after this season, the Sox must find a better catcher to catch the bulk of their games than Salty. That said in developing Lavs the way they have and in choosing Salty to be their guy, they seem to have institutionalized poor defensive play at catcher as a Sox mainstay now. Sure they have not had many great defensive catchers but now they seem to be simply not viewing defensive characteristics as meaningful in any sense for a catcher.

 

It is very hard for me to just accept that seeing pitching stats for starting pitchers fall off a cliff edge is all tied JUST to the annual trends going that way to begin with when this is so clearly the first year that Salty as been the guy behind the plate. Neither Lester or Beckett are likely to get back over 8 this year I think for a k/9.

 

I have not seen anything of Lavs this year. However I am beginning to think the Sox may just not be able to afford the added burden of Salty even this year.

[Laser Show]

I question the 3-1 pitch. Remember that Remy and probably everyone watching thought Lester was working around Youk. I think Youk thought the same. Lester fed him a 3-1 fastball that caught him completely off guard. If you have it on DVR' date=' watch it again. Youk steps out and looks at Lester with an amused smile. When i saw that smile, I though, Lester had better not come over the middle again, because Youk was now ready. Lester did and Youk was ready.[/quote']

 

I felt the same exact way. It got to 3-0 which was fully expected. The fastball on 3-0 was pretty predictable too. But throwing another one at 3-1 made me groan. I knew what was coming, you knew, Youk knew, everyone knew. Yet he did it, Jon Lester threw THREE fastballs in a row right down the middle of the plate to a great hitter. Who does that? Darnell McDonald didn't even do that in garbage time.

[kapsis21]

I felt the same exact way. It got to 3-0 which was fully expected. The fastball on 3-0 was pretty predictable too. But throwing another one at 3-1 made me groan. I knew what was coming' date=' you knew, Youk knew, everyone knew. Yet he did it, Jon Lester threw [b']THREE[/b] fastballs in a row right down the middle of the plate to a great hitter. Who does that? Darnell McDonald didn't even do that in garbage time.

 

he didnt have any command on his secondary pitches whatsoever.. he has become the most predictable pitcher i feel..

and probably there was more to it for BV's ego not letting Youk walk and have Dunn take a hack..

[redsoxbeatz]

I wish something would happen. What the f*** is Cherry waiting for, don't be a pussy. Our rotation needs change.

[redsoxbeatz]

he didnt have any command on his secondary pitches whatsoever.. he has become the most predictable pitcher i feel..

and probably there was more to it for BV's ego not letting Youk walk and have Dunn take a hack..

 

He could rake in the NL Central I bet. Give him to the Pirates get us Cole + some.