If the sox blew it up thread

[SCM33]

Salty has been good this yr. If the plan is to bring up Lavs and start him at C' date=' you need to deal Salty while his value is high[/quote']

 

I think this depends on where Lavarnway is defensively.

 

Salty has been pretty good and his defense has improved, but you have to wonder if this is just a hot streak or if he finally started playing up to the potential he once had.

[jung]

Well this is clearly just my opinion but based on what he is doing I don't think for a minute that Beckett wants to be here.

 

He told the media that he would hold a presser about this most recent DL stint and then skipped town on them. Many of us and most of the baseball media has said since before spring that the season would hinge on the health and performance of 1, 2 and 3 in the rotation. One of them going on the DL is without question a big deal.

 

Even if Beckett just said, hey I am going to do everything I can do to get back on the field ASAP. I think I will be back after 15 days....he could have stopped with that or gone on if he wanted to but that much would have been fine. The ticket buying fans that love this team deserve that much anyway. Instead he tells the media he is going to hold a presser and skips town!

 

He does not want to be here in my view. He does not give a rats ass about this team, his teammates, this town or its fans or even baseball for that matter. Need I remind us that he has already told us what his perspective is on baseball now. Frankly that is the one thing he could have avoided saying since it goes without saying that you family would come first. Only a dick-head that wants to shove it down your throat would feel compelled to say the words.

 

I guy that does not want to be someplace will make life miserable for those around him until he is no longer in that place. How many examples of this do we have to see before we at least get this when it comes to professional athletes?

[jacksonianmarch]

The pre-game FOX coverage brought up some interesting destinations for Papi. Reynolds said "he's gone", which probably holds as much weight as me breaking news that Papi will get dealt, but still. I think the sox will have 2 big offensive pieces to move this deadline if they decide to sell. Cody Ross is having a hell of a season and Papi is an icon who is killing the ball.

[Bellhorn04]

The pre-game FOX coverage brought up some interesting destinations for Papi. Reynolds said "he's gone"' date=' which probably holds as much weight as me breaking news that Papi will get dealt, but still. I think the sox will have 2 big offensive pieces to move this deadline if they decide to sell. Cody Ross is having a hell of a season and Papi is an icon who is killing the ball.[/quote']

 

Only problem is, that leaves us with no bats! The team would be a joke...or even more of a joke, I should say.

[jacksonianmarch]

Only problem is' date=' that leaves us with no bats! The team would be a joke...or even more of a joke, I should say.[/quote']

 

The point would be to blow it up. You wouldnt care about this season. You could then hope Crawford and Ells were healthy for 2013 and work in Lavs and Reddick

[Bellhorn04]

The point would be to blow it up. You wouldnt care about this season. You could then hope Crawford and Ells were healthy for 2013 and work in Lavs and Reddick

 

It's been a long long time since this team packed it in in July. I'm not sure the fans would accept it, especially the ones paying for the expensive tickets. Tough sell for this PR-conscious ownership. Lucchino, the front man, better get ready writing his talking points on that one.

[Bellhorn04]

And if we do trade Ortiz, you can be sure we'll get f***ed on the deal.

 

I actually think that instead of that, they might sign him to an extension. They know the fans need something to get them through the rest of this season.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's been a long long time since this team packed it in in July. I'm not sure the fans would accept it' date=' especially the ones paying for the expensive tickets. Tough sell for this PR-conscious ownership. Lucchino, the front man, better get ready writing his talking points on that one.[/quote']

 

2006 you dealt away David Wells for Kottaras. Otherwise, you didnt have too many parts to sell off. This yr, you have two guys on 1 yr deals who are producing on a team that needs to get under the cap with 2 offensive prospects behind those positions who are said to be the future

[Bellhorn04]

2006 you dealt away David Wells for Kottaras. Otherwise' date=' you didnt have too many parts to sell off. This yr, you have two guys on 1 yr deals who are producing on a team that needs to get under the cap with 2 offensive prospects behind those positions who are said to be the future[/quote']

 

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. But the fan base is very pissed and trading Ortiz might not go over well at all.

[jacksonianmarch]

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. But the fan base is very pissed and trading Ortiz might not go over well at all.

 

You have two fan bases and if the sox management actually cared about the die hard fans, they will blow some of this up and augment the team once they build a new core. But the management follows the money and they make more money off the yuppy pink hatters so my guess is that will try another short sighted patch with a shiny new player ill suited for the pressure of Fenway or the direction of the franchise

[SoxSport]

Blow up the front office and free some of those Pawtucket guys--Iggy and Lav--from prison.

[SoxSport]

And if we do trade Ortiz, you can be sure we'll get f***ed on the deal.

 

I actually think that instead of that, they might sign him to an extension. They know the fans need something to get them through the rest of this season.

 

I have zero confidence in the front office getting value in any trade --after Youkilis.

[jacksonianmarch]

I have zero confidence in the front office getting value in any trade --after Youkilis.

 

At the time, he needed to go from a clubhouse perspective. Nobody knew WMB would be hurt effectively, the following series.

[SoxSport]

At the time' date=' he needed to go from a clubhouse perspective. Nobody knew WMB would be hurt effectively, the following series.[/quote']

 

That's why you have a bench. Why trade it so soon? I don't believe the clubhouse stuff.

That's media crap. Youks is a Sox veteran with a lot of friends on the team. The one thing I'll say is V should have kept his big mouth shut about Youks. The media made a big deal out of that.

[example1]

The point would be to blow it up. You wouldnt care about this season. You could then hope Crawford and Ells were healthy for 2013 and work in Lavs and Reddick

 

Hopefully the Sox haven't hired you as a consultant. Reddick is gone.

 

 

Regarding the "fanbase" argument re: trading Ortiz, this isn't a huge deal. The fanbase has seen every single player go from the 2004 team except Papi, and the feeling of having a winning team is much better than the feeling of having a successful Papi. The fans will get over it... hell, they would have to eventually, he's in his late 30's and players just get old and move on.

[SoxSport]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2012/07/08/frustrated_red_sox_need_a_jolt/

 

Cafardo's column this morning reiterates what I've been saying: if Ells can play in the minors, he can play here; and why are Red Sox starters getting bombed in the first inning?

 

He says the Red Sox need some energy, perhaps from a big trade or further infusion of the farm system.

Felix for Ells and fatty Lester is a possibility, but Felix may be unavailable. The other options are Garza and Hamels. The Yankees are hot after Hamels right now--it's time for Ben to get off his ass. No playoffs, no job, Ben. Life is tough.

[example1]

You've quoted this article in a few different places but I haven't seen actual suggestions from you. Felix isn't happening.

 

The Red Sox DO need some energy, but that energy needs to be the right energy or it will just be a waste of prospects. Cafardo's column was bordering on "do a trade for a trade's sake".

[a700hitter]

You've quoted this article in a few different places but I haven't seen actual suggestions from you. Felix isn't happening.

 

The Red Sox DO need some energy, but that energy needs to be the right energy or it will just be a waste of prospects. Cafardo's column was bordering on "do a trade for a trade's sake".

Cafardo, like the rest of us, knows that the answers are not within the organization. You can't blame him for not having the answers, because they have bollixed up this thing so badly that I don't know if anyone has the answer.

[a700hitter]

I would trade Lester. He should bring in a haul. All of Lester's numbers declined last year and they are significantly down this year. I would hope that he rights his ship in the second half and then trade him. Better to trade him a year too soon than a year too late.

[example1]

I would trade Lester. He should bring in a haul. All of Lester's numbers declined last year and they are significantly down this year. I would hope that he rights his ship in the second half and then trade him. Better to trade him a year too soon than a year too late.

 

I would be open to this idea. Opening the discussion around Lester would probably have most teams willing to offer at least something good in return, especially teams in the win-now mode.

[example1]

Okay, I've looked through some of the historical records. It is worth noting that the Sox will probably not go into sell-now mode. It probably isn't even reasonable for them to be sellers, because a) it wouldn't be economically advantageous and from a macro-view, they aren't actually out of anything at this point.

 

* 2.5 games out of the wild card

* significant injuries all year

* underperformance that is reasonably likely to turn around

 

Cherington isn't going to just turn into the Mets suddenly (even if many of us believe they should be sellers).

 

Finally, it is worth it to realize that being .500 at the ASB is not traditionally indicative of being out of it. In fact, many teams find being .500 as an indication to NOT be sellers at the deadline.

 

In recent history, the 2007 Rockies and 2005 Astros were either .500 or under .500 and went to the WS.

 

I realize that new playoff rules have changed things a bit, but I do wonder whether the new rules mean that ANY TIME the Sox are battling for the Wild Card they should just give up, because it all comes down to one game? Obviously that would be a silly strategy.

 

The first few weeks after the break will speak volumes about what direction the Sox should go. If they win some games and get close to the WC spot, they will likely push through to the end. If their SP continue to suck and they lose more, they might turn on a dime and try to revamp for 2013 and 2014. Will be interesting to see... and perhaps painful to watch.

[Palodios]

Okay, I've looked through some of the historical records. It is worth noting that the Sox will probably not go into sell-now mode. It probably isn't even reasonable for them to be sellers, because a) it wouldn't be economically advantageous and from a macro-view, they aren't actually out of anything at this point.

 

* 2.5 games out of the wild card

* significant injuries all year

* underperformance that is reasonably likely to turn around

 

Cherington isn't going to just turn into the Mets suddenly (even if many of us believe they should be sellers).

 

Finally, it is worth it to realize that being .500 at the ASB is not traditionally indicative of being out of it. In fact, many teams find being .500 as an indication to NOT be sellers at the deadline.

 

In recent history, the 2007 Rockies and 2005 Astros were either .500 or under .500 and went to the WS.

 

I realize that new playoff rules have changed things a bit, but I do wonder whether the new rules mean that ANY TIME the Sox are battling for the Wild Card they should just give up, because it all comes down to one game? Obviously that would be a silly strategy.

 

The first few weeks after the break will speak volumes about what direction the Sox should go. If they win some games and get close to the WC spot, they will likely push through to the end. If their SP continue to suck and they lose more, they might turn on a dime and try to revamp for 2013 and 2014. Will be interesting to see... and perhaps painful to watch.

 

 

The big problem that I see is the competition that the Red Sox have for the wildcard. Take your pick on wildcard opponents-- Price/Shields, Weaver/Haren, or Verlander? I seriously doubt Cleveland/Baltimore pull away.

 

 

The Red Sox also have players that are going to be far more valuable now than in the offseason.

 

Josh Beckett: Teams are always desperate for starting pitching, and there are some solid options in the offseason. They need to get rid of this guy badly. They can justify trading Beckett to the fans very easily.

 

Cody Ross: He's very cheap, and could help out a small budget contender that needs some pop. If injury-prone and expensive Carlos Beltran can pull in an elite prospect, I would bet that Cody Ross certainly could as well. They could also justify it by saying they're "making room from one of the returning players".

 

Shoppach: Lavarnway fever?

 

Bullpen pieces: Would the average fan miss an Albers, an Atchison, a Mortensen or a Tazawa?

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

Trading Pedroia/Lester/Ortiz would kill ticket sales, but would it make any difference to the average fan if they picked up some quality prospects for those guys?

[Palodios]

The reality is... they need their stars to start stepping up. And if Pedroia/Gonzalez/Lester/Buchholz come back in full force, they can get to the playoffs without Beckett/Ross/Shoppach. We'll probably never hear the end of it from a couple posters on here if the Red Sox turn into sellers and still make the playoffs, but trading a few stopgap players and Mr. Toxic-Clubhouse couldn't hurt.

[jacksonianmarch]

You really cannot deal Lester right now. You dont sell a player when it's value is at its lowest, especially when he isnt terribly expensive to begin with. Beckett, OTOH, might not recoup his value as he is getting older and his stuff has dropped off the past few seasons. This yr, his command isnt what it used to be.

 

The sox have a few pieces that could bring back something of value. Aceves, Padilla, Atchison, and Miller would all bring back something at the deadline since pen pitching is the most traded commodity at the deadline every yr. And there is no guarantee all of those guys are back next yr

 

Cody Ross is on a 1 yr deal. His OPS is at .882 with big power and he is hitting both home and away. If he continues like this, he's getting a 3-5 yr deal in the offseason at $8-10 mil per yr money. The sox have Kalish behind him, so he is an easy choice to move.

 

The sox also have to deal Big Papi. The sox cannot actually offer him arbitration. Due to the new CBA, they can only offer him a 1yr $12 mil deal through the arb process instead of a continued ratcheting up of his value on a 1yr basis. That means he will walk, and if his comments of late tell us anything, I think he would walk even if the sox could offer him 1 yr $16 mil through the modified arb process. And through that process, their draft compensation is minimized, so they are gonna have to get something for him.

[SemperFi Sox]

Time to blow it up, things aren't going to change when the pitching is this s*****. Get rid of Lester and or Beckett.

[a700hitter]

Okay, I've looked through some of the historical records. It is worth noting that the Sox will probably not go into sell-now mode. It probably isn't even reasonable for them to be sellers, because a) it wouldn't be economically advantageous and from a macro-view, they aren't actually out of anything at this point.

 

* 2.5 games out of the wild card

* significant injuries all year

* underperformance that is reasonably likely to turn around

 

Cherington isn't going to just turn into the Mets suddenly (even if many of us believe they should be sellers).

 

Finally, it is worth it to realize that being .500 at the ASB is not traditionally indicative of being out of it. In fact, many teams find being .500 as an indication to NOT be sellers at the deadline.

 

In recent history, the 2007 Rockies and 2005 Astros were either .500 or under .500 and went to the WS.

 

I realize that new playoff rules have changed things a bit, but I do wonder whether the new rules mean that ANY TIME the Sox are battling for the Wild Card they should just give up, because it all comes down to one game? Obviously that would be a silly strategy.

 

The first few weeks after the break will speak volumes about what direction the Sox should go. If they win some games and get close to the WC spot, they will likely push through to the end. If their SP continue to suck and they lose more, they might turn on a dime and try to revamp for 2013 and 2014. Will be interesting to see... and perhaps painful to watch.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that any time the division is out of reach that the Sox should give up. At least, I am not suggesting that. However, I believe that this team is so poorly constructed that it doesn't have what it takes to go deep into the offseason. Therefore, I would be reluctant to be a buyer at the trading deadline. Getting back Ellsbury, Pedroia and Crawford (I'll believe it when I see it) will be great, but they don't pitch. Until our top 3 pitchers start pitching like a top 3, I don't think we can compete with the top teams. I am dubious that Lester and beckett will turn things around. If our pitching was solid and we had a couple of aces, I would be all for being buyers and going for the wild card. I have been criticized for a win now mentality, so supporting the team being in sell mode is against my usual preference and philosophy. I just don't see much hope for this team in the post season. We'd likely be out in 1 game or quickly in the ALDS round. If Lester and Beckett come out of the ASB dealing like top of the rotation guys, that would go a long way towards changing my opinion.

[SemperFi Sox]

Our FO was too stupid to realize September wasn't a fluke, there is something seriously wrong with this team. Your leader walks out on a manager's meeting during a road trip? Cant happen.

[redsoxbeatz]

just don't trade Ortiz. I like him on this team and w/o him I guarantee a sub-500 finish.

 

Beckett and/or Lester can definitely go. I'd prefer Beckett trade but he does have 10-5. I'd like to see Lester stick around especially since he has the talent to be so, so, SO much better than he is performing right now -- wish he would step it up.

[SemperFi Sox]

just don't trade Ortiz. I like him on this team and w/o him I guarantee a sub-500 finish.

 

Beckett and/or Lester can definitely go. I'd prefer Beckett trade but he does have 10-5. I'd like to see Lester stick around especially since he has the talent to be so, so, SO much better than he is performing right now -- wish he would step it up.

 

so you're unwilling to trade Ortiz in fear of a bad finish, but would trade Lester and Beckett? That makes no sense. If either of those guys goes it's because we're selling and the rest of the season doesn't matter.

[Bellhorn04]

I think Beckett is the guy to trade. He should bring a decent value in return.