How to Fix This Team?

[wyo-sox]

I said earlier you were probably closer on Crawford than I was as you are looking at his entire history. So I am not sure why you would also predict Dice K. will some how average 6 innings. I do not see anything in his numbers the past few years that indicate he is that good of a pitcher. I am not real knowledgeable about baseball so do not think I am trying to argue. Wondering if there is something that leavs you to feel upbeat about with him. If my math is correct over the last three years he has averaged under five innings per start.

[jung]

They did not lose this game in the bull pen. They did not lose any of the Oriole games from the bull pen. They do need better starting pitching but the disappointments are not down there in the 4 and 5 hole. They are in the 1 and 3 hole and dice is not going to come back and fix those problems.

 

Of course we might know more about what Cook has got if hurricane Salty did not torch him on his way through town. But even if Cook has got something to offer is he a 1, 2 or a 3?

 

If they do not immediately shelve Salty for Lavs I refuse to have any hope that they will figure anything out at this point. If they do not switch Agons and Pedey in the lineup I will refuse to have any hope that they will figure anything out because these are no longer iffy kinds of "gee this may work out if we give it more time" situations. They are glaringly obvious necessities. Salty is killing this team and AGons is killing Pedey.

[FredLynn]

Carl Crawford (60 day DL)

Andrew Bailey (60 day DL)

Chris Carpenter (60 day DL)

Bobby Jenks (60 day DL)

John Lackey (60 day DL)

Ryan Kalish (60 day DL)

Jacoby Ellsbury (15 day DL)

Aaron Cook (15 day DL)

Jason Repko (15 day DL)

Daisuke Matsuzaka (15 day DL)

 

And people wonder why this team is struggling LOL

 

I am not buying that our problems are because of injuries. Thats a convenient excuse that could be used every year we fail. Yes, they do matter somewhat, but every team has injuries. Our problems are because our pitching stinks. Beckett (4.45) has been mediocre. Lester (4.62) less than mediocre. Buchholz (8.69) stinks. Doubront (5.19) and Bard (4.38) have not done the job either. Our bullpen does seem to be improving, but our pitching overall is next to last in the AL. Aside from our closer, which PITCHING injury or injuries do you think has been responsible for our record? The offense is scoring runs regardless of the injuries, so they aren't so important.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Afterward, the Sox looked as drained as they have all season. And that was before they dragged themselves out the door to catch a flight to Kansas City for a three-game series that starts tomorrow night.

 

“We played for five and a half hours,” snapped second baseman Dustin Pedroia. “I don’t think anybody gives a (expletive) about the loss today. We’ve got to come out and worry about tomorrow.”

 

Well, buddy, I mean I love ya and all, but you may want to start giving a s*** about the loss. Because you've lost 16 in the past 27 games. You keep playing like this and your on pace for a 66-96 record.

 

So maybe start giving a s*** about every game. And if you don't maybe you should go watch the NESN commercial again. Remember? Every pitch matters. Every strike matters. Every at bat matters. Every game matters.

 

More s*** couldn't spew out of a horses ass.

[Brennan]

They made a mistake promoting an Epstein clone from within to replace him' date=' and hiring a manager from the outside with independent clout--to try to work with him. I don't think it's working out. You have to wonder if Valentine has any input in the personnel moves being made. I just don't see any real change from last year.[/quote']

 

 

Bingo

 

 

Meet the new boss -

 

Same as the old boss.

[Brennan]

Well, buddy, I mean I love ya and all, but you may want to start giving a s*** about the loss. Because you've lost 16 in the past 27 games. You keep playing like this and your on pace for a 66-96 record.

 

So maybe start giving a s*** about every game. And if you don't maybe you should go watch the NESN commercial again. Remember? Every pitch matters. Every strike matters. Every at bat matters. Every game matters.

 

More s*** couldn't spew out of a horses ass.

 

 

Well said. I admire Pedey very much as a player but as a spokesman he is full of s*** and usually totes the company line.

[wyo-sox]

Well, buddy, I mean I love ya and all, but you may want to start giving a s*** about the loss. Because you've lost 16 in the past 27 games. You keep playing like this and your on pace for a 66-96 record.

 

So maybe start giving a s*** about every game. And if you don't maybe you should go watch the NESN commercial again. Remember? Every pitch matters. Every strike matters. Every at bat matters. Every game matters.

 

More s*** couldn't spew out of a horses ass.

 

Well said

[FredLynn]

Well said

 

I concur. Thats the problem: they don't care any more. They are just going through the motions. Hard to blame them in a way. It must be pretty demoralizing to be behind by five runs nearly every game.

[example1]

Can't say I disagree about cERA or Salty. Not much to add there. I wish he were better with pitchers, but the pitchers aren't good when he's in there and his offense is nowhere near good enough to warrant him sticking around. Not sure Lavarnway would be a better option behind the plate, but his offense would certainly be an upgrade.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

I am not buying that our problems are because of injuries. Thats a convenient excuse that could be used every year we fail. Yes' date=' they do matter somewhat, but every team has injuries. Our problems are because our pitching stinks. Beckett (4.45) has been mediocre. Lester (4.62) less than mediocre. Buchholz (8.69) stinks. Doubront (5.19) and Bard (4.38) have not done the job either. Our bullpen does seem to be improving, but our pitching overall is next to last in the AL. Aside from our closer, which PITCHING injury or injuries do you think has been responsible for our record? The offense is scoring runs regardless of the injuries, so they aren't so important.[/quote']

 

Injuries and lack of signing players is why we have s*** on this team.

[example1]

I am not buying that our problems are because of injuries. Thats a convenient excuse that could be used every year we fail. Yes' date=' they do matter somewhat, but every team has injuries. Our problems are because our pitching stinks. Beckett (4.45) has been mediocre. Lester (4.62) less than mediocre. Buchholz (8.69) stinks. Doubront (5.19) and Bard (4.38) have not done the job either. Our bullpen does seem to be improving, but our pitching overall is next to last in the AL. Aside from our closer, which PITCHING injury or injuries do you think has been responsible for our record? The offense is scoring runs regardless of the injuries, so they aren't so important.[/quote']

 

Injuries aren't the reason this team is bad currently. As you said, pitching is.

 

However, when people try to say that a team with a payroll like this should be able to weather the storm of bad SPs, I would say that is where the injuries are the problem. The injuries represent a fail safe. They are the Titanic's second, third and fourth water holds that were supposed to make sinking impossible.

 

A team that adds Ellsbury and (previous) Crawford and maybe Kalish can probably do some more damage in a game like today, when they were hapless at the plate late in the game. Pitching may be getting them now, but more offense NEVER hurts and this team still loses games because they don't score more than the other team.

 

The pitching injuries are also depth problems. As I noted earlier, having Matsuzaka and Lackey would push Bard and Doubront to the pen and add depth there. All of those injuries have a ripple effect.

 

So no, the injuries aren't to blame, but they are probably a reason why failures of the SPs makes a team as expensive as the Sox play like one of the worst teams in the league. They SHOULD merely be as bad as Texas was 5-6 years ago (remember those TX teams with huge offense and laughable pitching??? That is what this team's plan B should have been). Instead, they have s***** pitching, no depth, and the offense they hired to be able to mitigate problems like that is sustaining the most critical injuries on the team in Ellsbury and Crawford.

 

It all makes sense to me. It's sad, and I don't see any obvious answers, but it makes sense.

[jung]

Could Lavs possibly be worse that Salty behind the plate. I actually do not think that is possible.

[example1]

Does anyone else hope that they just move Middlebrooks up to the 2nd or 3rd spot in the order?

 

How about getting sub.300 OBP Aviles out of the leadoff spot?

 

How about never letting Darnel McDonald bat again?

[example1]

Could Lavs possibly be worse that Salty behind the plate. I actually do not think that is possible.

 

I have a hard time knowing where Salty is bad behind the plate. I'm not a catching instructor, and just don't know. All I know is that pitchers seem to lack confidence and they get shelled when he's out there. In that regard, I doubt Lavarnway could be worse.

 

Also, Lavarnway is as good a hitter as a guy like Middlebrooks, who appears capable of stinging the ball pretty consistently. Let's get them both in the lineup everyday and see what happens.

[Brennan]

Ugghh.. The thought of Dice-K and Lackey being the things we are waiting for to save this mess is making me sick.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Could Lavs possibly be worse that Salty behind the plate. I actually do not think that is possible.

 

This is my thought exactly.

 

Can Lavarnway be any worse than Salty? Because Salty is painfully bad right now.

 

So, no. Lavarnway can't be any worse than Salty.

 

Same thing goes for Iglesias. Can he be any worse than Darnell McDonald offensively?? Absolutely not.

 

Iglesias at SS, Aviles in LF is the best option for this team right now. Once Ellsbury and Crawford come back, you may have a bit of a logjam, but you deal with that when it comes because there's never a guarantee that a player is going to come back, so you put the best team out there right now that you can.

[jung]

Pedey wears his heart on his sleeve and he is the consummate believer in the them vs us thing as far as team is concerned. What we don't know is what he is saying in the locker room. Pedey should keep his mouth shut when it comes to s*** with the press. What you just heard from him was Pedey's ill phrased, No Comment. Whining about having to get on a plane might be the sort of thing a couple of teammates might say to each other, not the kind of thing any of them should say in public. He is just not good with the media in situations like this and he clearly is not savvy enough to separate his life with his teammates from his life as a Red Sox player but outside those clubhouse doors. Now if he starts to phone in games like AGons did today, then I will find his behavior inexcusable. Until then I would just advice him to learn these two words...No comment.... and leave it at that.

 

We want Pedey to lead the team. We in no way expect that to mean he is the spokesman for the team, a job for which he is wholly unqualified. I think when these guys get things like Pedey's weekly gig with EEI, they think it is because they are "good" with the media. Being provocative and good are two different things and give the media a choice between provocative and good, the media will take provocative every time. Why the hell do we think Marchand has his gig with EEI! I assure you it is not because of his polished communications skills?

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Well, buddy, I mean I love ya and all, but you may want to start giving a s*** about the loss. Because you've lost 16 in the past 27 games. You keep playing like this and your on pace for a 66-96 record.

 

So maybe start giving a s*** about every game. And if you don't maybe you should go watch the NESN commercial again. Remember? Every pitch matters. Every strike matters. Every at bat matters. Every game matters.

 

More s*** couldn't spew out of a horses ass.

 

Pedroia says s*** like this all the time? This shouldn't be a surprise to you. I actually agree with him. It's May and we lost to the Orioles who happen to hot right now. What can you do to change the outcome of today? Nothing. Just play better against the teams you have next.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Pedroia says s*** like this all the time? This shouldn't be a surprise to you. I actually agree with him. It's May and we lost to the Orioles who happen to hot right now. What can you do to change the outcome of today? Nothing. Just play better against the teams you have next.

 

I'm not saying you can do anything to change the outcome of the game.

 

I'm saying don't go on NESN and make commercials saying every pitch matters, every strike matters, and every game matters, and then in a post game presser say "nobody cares about this game"

 

I understand he was pissed off, and rightfully so because this team is playing like s*** right now, and because if Salty could catch a simple pop up or if Buchholz could throw to a sub-9 ERA, they wouldn't have had to play 17 innings. I'm just saying that if I care about the losses, and watching baseball is just a passionate hobby, then he should care about them as well.

 

But at some point, when your pitchers just keep getting blasted every outing, I would be thinking "Who gives a s*** anymore. It doesn't matter how hard I play, this team just doesn't play like it cares". Hell, I feel sorry for the guy for being on a team that doesn't play a passionate game.

 

You watch the Rays play. Every single game, every person in that dugout is up for the game. They are passionate about winning. Outside of a few players, this team just feels like a team trying to collect their paychecks right now.

[jung]

Outside of a few players, this team just feels like a team trying to collect their paychecks right now.

 

And there are some pretty hefty paychecks in the "just collecting their paychecks" group right now.

 

One of the worst things (in my opinion) about the way some teams implement Bill James principles is that they don't look under the uniform to see how the player ticks. James does not necessarily look at how numbers are generated and I think it is very common to ignore splits and decide that they are meaningless. "If player XYZ can produce these numbers generally, he should be expected to produce them in every situation". Well maybe he will and maybe he won't.

 

It reminds me a little of the Giambi situation in the book and movie "Moneyball". Remember that Beane was just trying to replace Damon's numbers and did not care that little brother Giambi was a head case, heartless *******....eventually Beane ended up deciding that the numbers part of Giambi's contribution was not as important as the heartless ******* part and got him outta' town before he did more damage than he was already doing. Boy do I see alotta "love those numbers" and have no idea what is under the hood in the way the Sox have implemented James formulas.

[jung]

Dan Schaughnessy is on Comcast with that other dweeb, Felger. For once I agree with him...most of this can be chalked up to bad baseball...bad bad baseball.

 

Take the three wins against the twins away and they are 8-16.

 

Danny boy wondering what Agons really means to this team. Does he just look like a bigger Wade Boggs? Does he look like a guy that will ever carry this team, even for a game or so....Did they overpay for Agons in salary and in players traded...valid questions right now.

[Ghost Of Theo]

You can't fix the 2012 mess. It's over and they will cruise nicely to an 81-81 record this year falling behind the Rays, Yankees, AND Orioles.

 

They need to build the farm system, fire Ben Cherington, fire Bobby V, remove Larry from baseball ops, and stop talking about this f***ing FAKE sell out streak.

 

Then 3rd place can be theirs in 2013.

 

The reason they are s*** right now is that the pitching staff has nothing but hacks on it that believe the early part of the season is chump time, that they shouldn't perform to expectation. Ask Lester who EVERY DAMN YEAR turns it on after April ends.

 

This is an organization that is okay with 2nd best. It worked for a while when the Rays were crap and there was no other competition in the AL East other than New York. Times have changed you underachieving losers.

[iortiz]

You can't fix the 2012 mess. It's over and they will cruise nicely to an 81-81 record this year falling behind the Rays, Yankees, AND Orioles.

 

They need to build the farm system, fire Ben Cherington, fire Bobby V, remove Larry from baseball ops, and stop talking about this f***ing FAKE sell out streak.

 

Then 3rd place can be theirs in 2013.

 

The reason they are s*** right now is that the pitching staff has nothing but hacks on it that believe the early part of the season is chump time, that they shouldn't perform to expectation. Ask Lester who EVERY DAMN YEAR turns it on after April ends.

 

This is an organization that is okay with 2nd best. It worked for a while when the Rays were crap and there was no other competition in the AL East other than New York. Times have changed you underachieving losers.

 

This!

[FredLynn]

You can't fix the 2012 mess. It's over and they will cruise nicely to an 81-81 record this year falling behind the Rays, Yankees, AND Orioles.

 

They need to build the farm system, fire Ben Cherington, fire Bobby V, remove Larry from baseball ops, and stop talking about this f***ing FAKE sell out streak.

 

Then 3rd place can be theirs in 2013.

 

The reason they are s*** right now is that the pitching staff has nothing but hacks on it that believe the early part of the season is chump time, that they shouldn't perform to expectation. Ask Lester who EVERY DAMN YEAR turns it on after April ends.

 

This is an organization that is okay with 2nd best. It worked for a while when the Rays were crap and there was no other competition in the AL East other than New York. Times have changed you underachieving losers.

 

I agree with most of what you wrote except for two things. First, Valentine was handed a pile of s*** and told to make a filet mignon out of it. He hasn't been given a fair shot IMO. He has made some mistakes, but the players he has now do not have the talent to win many more games than they are winning. And second, I am more optimistic about 2013 than you are. Youkilis will be gone; hopefully Beckett too. If things work out right we will have a lot of cash on hand to buy a couple of premier SP.

Its uncomfortable to be more optimistic (long term) than anyone here.....:dunno:

[Dojji]

You can't fix the 2012 mess. It's over and they will cruise nicely to an 81-81 record this year falling behind the Rays, Yankees, AND Orioles.

 

They need to build the farm system, fire Ben Cherington, fire Bobby V, remove Larry from baseball ops, and stop talking about this f***ing FAKE sell out streak.

 

Then 3rd place can be theirs in 2013.

 

The reason they are s*** right now is that the pitching staff has nothing but hacks on it that believe the early part of the season is chump time, that they shouldn't perform to expectation. Ask Lester who EVERY DAMN YEAR turns it on after April ends.

 

This is an organization that is okay with 2nd best. It worked for a while when the Rays were crap and there was no other competition in the AL East other than New York. Times have changed you underachieving losers.

 

This is not Cherington's fault. The guy who orchestrated this mess is Lucchino if it's anyone. You can't fire the owners, and firing the manager and GM the year after you fired the manager and GM just makes you look weak, so Lucky really needs to take any fall that's being taken here.

[Dojji]

I'm not saying you can do anything to change the outcome of the game.

 

I'm saying don't go on NESN and make commercials saying every pitch matters, every strike matters, and every game matters, and then in a post game presser say "nobody cares about this game"

 

I understand he was pissed off, and rightfully so because this team is playing like s*** right now, and because if Salty could catch a simple pop up or if Buchholz could throw to a sub-9 ERA, they wouldn't have had to play 17 innings. I'm just saying that if I care about the losses, and watching baseball is just a passionate hobby, then he should care about them as well.

 

But at some point, when your pitchers just keep getting blasted every outing, I would be thinking "Who gives a s*** anymore. It doesn't matter how hard I play, this team just doesn't play like it cares". Hell, I feel sorry for the guy for being on a team that doesn't play a passionate game.

 

You watch the Rays play. Every single game, every person in that dugout is up for the game. They are passionate about winning. Outside of a few players, this team just feels like a team trying to collect their paychecks right now.

 

There's no point in playing nice with the media right now. No matter what Pedrioa says or doesn't say, the media feeding frenzy looks pretty much the same. If he says nothing, they'll blast him for saying nothing. If he gives talking points, they'll blast him for having no heart. If he takes them to task and challenges them, they'll blast him for being petulent. There is no "winning move" here.

 

The media has been waiting for a year like this for more than a decade, all the old negative Nellies who haven't had much to complain about for years are feeling like their time has finally come, and they're bound and determined to make the most of it. It doesn't matter what any one says, or doesn't say. NWIH can they resist the blood in the water now.

[Dojji]

Can Lavarnway be any worse than Salty?

 

Yes. Yes he can.

 

I'm not even going to try to claim that Salty is a good catcher. But at least we know he's an actual, full time catcher. We don't know that about Lavarnway. This guy's been catching professionally for only about 3 years, and was a part time outfielder before then. His tools are OK -- for a guy who will be earning his daily bread with the bat -- but he's very raw even for that. The best case scenario for Lavs is at about the Mike Piazza level, with plenty of room on the downside.

 

A rough comparison of their potential at the same stage of development would have shown Salty MILES ahead of Lavs in every category but offensive power.

 

And I say that as a guy who really likes Lavarnway on the whole.

[Dojji]

You're calling our closer a non-factor? That's pretty ridiculous.

 

Andrew Bailey is a nonfactor because you can't look me in the eye and tell me that you know this cat will ever pitch for the Sox for an extended period of time. I shoulda grayed him out rather than whited him, when I went back to amend the list and put Daisuke and Kalish gray I missed him in the list.

[Dojji]

I have a hard time knowing where Salty is bad behind the plate. I'm not a catching instructor' date=' and just don't know. All I know is that pitchers seem to lack confidence and they get shelled when he's out there. In that regard, I doubt Lavarnway could be worse.[/quote']

 

It's not rocket science, E1. the problem with Salty is that pitchers dont' trust him to actually catch the good breaking stuff. His hands are not the soft hands of a good veteran backstop. He led the league in passed balls last year. Pitchers are aware of that, and it will occasionally mean they take the big edge off their breaker in tight situations where they can't let the ball get away, or throw more fastballs when they should be going offspeed -- because they know Salty can catch that one.

 

The reason I'm not in love with Lavarnway as a fix is that he has exactly the same problem -- in fact he may actually be worse.

[FredLynn]

Injuries aren't the reason this team is bad currently. As you said, pitching is.

 

However, when people try to say that a team with a payroll like this should be able to weather the storm of bad SPs, I would say that is where the injuries are the problem. The injuries represent a fail safe. They are the Titanic's second, third and fourth water holds that were supposed to make sinking impossible.

 

On the one hand you wrote that " Injuries aren't the reason this team is bad currently. As you said, pitching is." but in the next sentence its "However, when people try to say that a team with a payroll like this should be able to weather the storm of bad SPs, I would say that is where the injuries are the problem. The injuries represent a fail safe. They are the Titanic's second, third and fourth water holds that were supposed to make sinking impossible.".

I agree with the first part about the pitching, but come on, all teams have injuries. The Rays are now 4-2 since Longoria got hurt. The Yankees are without Rivera and they are still winning. What I object to is using "injuries" as an excuse. Certainly if we had all our guys healthy our record would be better. What team cannot say that? Occasionally a team has an inordinate number of injuries, and that happened to us a couple of years ago. I do not believe that is the reason for our failure to perform this year: its mostly lack of pitching talent.