All the freaking angst!

[Jwmann2]

No matter how great or how terrible the ball club is in any given year, Red Sox fans are still going to be Red Sox fans. Even during the 100 win seasons, you still have those complaining about the lineup so and so need to be in AAA. I guess you could say the grass is always greener. As far as a sense of entitlement, they have been selling out the ballpark for how many consecutive years? Big attendance = big spending on big time players.

[MANNYHOF24]

Most of the attention goes to the recent failures with big-dollar free agency signings. But what doesn't get as much attention is the team's recent failures in bringing MLB-ready talent up from their system. I guess this is stating the obvious' date=' but if you have good young pitchers like the Rays, you don't have to pay huge dollars signing guys like Matsuzaka and Lackey.[/quote']

 

I think they have done a pretty great job with position players (Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youk, Reddick, Kalish) as well as having Middlebrooks and Lavs in AAA this year. I wish we could produce more impact pitchers though, even though Lester, Papelbon, Buchholz and Bard were gems. We need more pitching talent depth in our minor league system if you ask me.

[MANNYHOF24]

I don't think it is as much to do with a sense of "entitlement" as it is with the exptations. For the last couple seasons we have had one of the highest payrolls and have given out huge contracts to guys, only to see this team come out flat and then collapse when it mattered. What pisses me off isn't just the 1-5 start following all the s*** that happened last year. It's the fact that our supposed pitching staff leader has a terrible attitude and seems to only pitch up to his contract once every leap year. It's Lackey throwing the blame everywhere but towards himself. It's about Crawford faltering to the pressure of Boston, the way they've handled Bard and the pen, the 40-year-old washed up starter experiments that are no surprise when they fail misserably, the $12 million contract thrown at a reliever who hasn't done anything in years and is a dumbass. It's trading your starting SS just to move a couple million $ off the books when the difference represents less than 1% of the payroll.

 

I just don't really like this team. The '04 and '07 Redsox might not have been the most talented, flashy, or or stacked team, but they had character. They had confidence, comradery, they CARED. This team has too many overpaid players who don't have their head where it belongs.

 

That's not to say I don't root for the team but if I had to choose between a stacked roster and a roster of gritty BASEBALL players who love the game and build a strong lockerroom, I pick the latter. I know that no team is perfect, but I expect professional athletes to actually love what they do and be committed to excelence, not just care about picking up another paycheck or folding when things get tough. I don't need a perennial championship team, just a team I can be proud of.

 

Those teams WERE stacked, have you looked at the stats that those teams put up 1-9... It was pretty ungodly. In 2004 you had a pitching staff that had Pedro (who was Pedro like during the regular season until september that year) and Schilling who was a beast. You also had Keith Foulke in his prime who was a great closer.

[jung]

I agree...those teams had a great deal of talent. They also had a great deal of character and in some cases where characters. Sometimes it becomes easy to remember the character and forget about the talent.

 

I can't say that I like this 2012 team either. However as I said in a different thread, I find them hard to like or watch because they are porous defensively and unless they get some players in here that can throw some glove (and throw the ball for that matter) they will remain porous defensively. Great pitching can cover in part for porous defense but not so great pitching will tend to expose porous defense.

 

I just don't enjoy watching a team bleed runs defensively and then hope that they can bash away enough to make up for it in their half of the inning.

[TedWilliams101]

I guess I've just become spoiled with the Patriot model of being 100% team, 100% effort, and 100% passion or you're getting cut. I'm just soo sick of all the excuses, lack of passion and accountability from so many overpaid players. Dustin Perdoia (in terms of passion/effort) should be the 'rule' in sports, not the exception. If so many players don't really care, why should I?

[kapsis21]

I guess I've just become spoiled with the Patriot model of being 100% team' date=' 100% effort, and 100% passion or you're getting cut. I'm just soo sick of all the excuses, lack of passion and accountability from so many overpaid players. [b'] Dustin Perdoia (in terms of passion/effort) should be the 'rule' in sports, not the exception. [/b] If so many players don't really care, why should I?

i agree to the statement 100%.. couldnt have said any better.

he wears his heart on his sleeve. love his attitude passion effort ....

[a700hitter]

I guess I've just become spoiled with the Patriot model of being 100% team' date=' 100% effort, and 100% passion or you're getting cut. I'm just soo sick of all the excuses, lack of passion and accountability from so many overpaid players. Dustin Perdoia (in terms of passion/effort) should be the 'rule' in sports, not the exception. If so many players don't really care, why should I?[/quote']... and loses the big game repeatedly to NY? No thanks.

[iortiz]

I guess I've just become spoiled with the Patriot model of being 100% team' date=' 100% effort, and 100% passion or you're getting cut. I'm just soo sick of all the excuses, lack of passion and accountability from so many overpaid players. Dustin Perdoia (in terms of passion/effort) should be the 'rule' in sports, not the exception. If so many players don't really care, why should I?[/quote']

 

Way to go TedW101.

 

As always 100% agree.

[Gringo]

Pretty much exactly. It's fine to expect to win a given game or series, or even win it all, but to act like you're ENTITLED to a winning team is ridiculous. It's garbage, and it's setting yourself up for frustration.

 

If a man has set himself up for frustration, and then proceeds to come here and spill that frustration over a whole bunch of other people who might have preferred to have the kind of reasonable fact-driven conversations/arguments about baseball that you can generally have on a well-moderated baseball forum, and this happens again, and again, and on and on, ad nauseam ad infinitum, one might expect the more long-view-oriented elements of that forum to get a little testy about it.

 

Anyone who EXPECTS to win a World Series is foolish to begin with, and probably isn't much of an informed baseball fan.

 

However, if someone is unhappy with a player who he thinks should be doing better, or a manager who he thinks has made a tactical error, or a player who puts his foot in his mouth...venting on a fan forum is perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

[a700hitter]

Teams are never as bad as they look when they are losing, and they are not as dominant as they look when they are winning. This team will not continue to play like dogshit too much longer. The question is whether they can play consistently good ball the rest of the way. In 2011 they had a brutal stretch at the beginning and a record setting collapse at the end. In the middle they were scorching hot and on a roll. People have argued about which was the real 2011 team-- the one that opened and closed the season like dogshit or the one that dominate the middle of the year. The answer is neither. They were a 90 win team. Period. There is no solace to be taken from the dominant stretch. That's just wishful thinking. A 90 win team isn't bad. It was 1 win away from being a playoff team, however it ended the season on a terribly sour note that overshadowed the season. At the end of the season, I felt very strongly that the FO would have to take some bold moves and make some major changes to make everyone forget the end of 2011 even if that meant going over the LT threshold. They made bold moves in the FO and management, but let's face it the biggest off season player news was that Papelbon left for Philadelphia. Essentially, we hit the field in 2012 with the same team as 2011. They are off to a slow start and the troops are already looking thin and we've only pLayed 6 games. We can't shake that 2011 season. It's still in the press everywhere we look and we can't deny that it is still in the minds of the fans. I firmly believe that cataclysmic collapses can really damage a franchise beyond one year if the course of events doesn't change drastically. They needed to stock up on some quality and depth. They didn't need to sign any marquee big money players, but they needed to bring in some quality reliable big leaguers. They didn't. They will not continue to play as badly as they have thus far, but I am not sure that they can play good ball for an extended period either-- and they need to do that to put 2011 in their rear view mirror.

[SoxSport]

It's all over the media: the sky is falling for the Red Sox.

 

Last night on MLB channel, every day at the Globe.

 

No mention they started the season with 6 tough games on the road.

Didn't they have to start on the road last year,too? What gives?

 

No mention that the Yankees' sky is falling after being swept in Tampa Bay.

 

Just trying to put things in perspective. Relax. It's early. Stop reading the obits.

 

Could they use a spark from one of those kids in Pawtucket? Shouldn't Bard really be closing?

Well....yeah.

[SoxSport]

I think they have done a pretty great job with position players (Pedroia' date=' Ellsbury, Youk, Reddick, Kalish) as well as having Middlebrooks and Lavs in AAA this year. I wish we could produce more impact pitchers though, even though Lester, Papelbon, Buchholz and Bard were gems. We need more pitching talent depth in our minor league system if you ask me.[/quote']

 

They traded a good deal of their prospect depth for AdGon--a great player they had a questionable need for. Youks move to 3B has not helped their defense and may shorten his career.

[Dojji]

I think the plan was to let Papi walk and shift Youk to DH when Middlebrooks was ready.

 

They might have to accelerate that plan. Aviles wouldn't be a terrible everyday 3B, he can play the position defensively. And Middlebrooks is coming sometime in the next 2 years. Send down the least necessary reliever and call up Iglesias, and we can limp along with a better defensive lineup.

[a700hitter]

I think the plan was to let Papi walk and shift Youk to DH when Middlebrooks was ready.

 

They might have to accelerate that plan. Aviles wouldn't be a terrible everyday 3B, he can play the position defensively. And Middlebrooks is coming sometime in the next 2 years. Send down the least necessary reliever and call up Iglesias, and we can limp along with a better defensive lineup.

What would you do with Ortiz? The Sox are on the hook for $15 million.

[redsoxfan3]

I think the plan was to let Papi walk and shift Youk to DH when Middlebrooks was ready.

 

They might have to accelerate that plan. Aviles wouldn't be a terrible everyday 3B, he can play the position defensively. And Middlebrooks is coming sometime in the next 2 years. Send down the least necessary reliever and call up Iglesias, and we can limp along with a better defensive lineup.

 

I would rather keep Papi around until he retires. If Youk has a poor year, then let him walk after this year. I know Papi is older, but Youk does not look so good this year. I am not sure where you getthe idea that the plan is to let Papi walk. The FO obviously wanted to keep him around. Papi will retire in the near future and our DH spot will be available. Hopefully we won't have to give that to one player after he retires. I don't like the idea of Youk taking over the DH role. He has not proven he can hit consistently. If anything, we have both Salty and Lavarnway, then Lavarnway can split time at DH and C.

[a700hitter]

It might be a better plan to trade Youk if he does start hitting. If he starts hitting like Youk, he will still have good trade value. I'd move him for the best pitcher that I could get or a SS.

[Elktonnick]

It might be a better plan to trade Youk if he does start hitting. If he starts hitting like Youk' date=' he will still have good trade value. I'd move him for the best pitcher that I could get or a SS.[/quote']

 

Should have done that four months ago.

[a700hitter]

Should have done that four months ago.

Four months ago he was coming off an injury and his health was in question. Now, his health is back, but his ability is in question. I think his trade value will be maximized if he starts hitting.

[ORS]

Four months ago he was coming off an injury and his health was in question. Now' date=' his health is back, but his ability is in question. I think his trade value will be maximized if he starts hitting.[/quote']

If he starts hitting, and they start winning, do you trade him? I don't. If they start winning consistenly, and he is hitting, I think they should finish the season with him. If he's hitting, but the club hasn't turned things around, I think they should bring Middlebrooks and Lavarnway up to get big league exposure, and trade him.

[a700hitter]

If he starts hitting' date=' and they start winning, do you trade him? I don't. If they start winning consistenly, and he is hitting, I think they should finish the season with him. If he's hitting, but the club hasn't turned things around, I think they should bring Middlebrooks and Lavarnway up to get big league exposure, and trade him.[/quote']I agree. I wouldn't trade him if he starts hitting and they start winning consistently.

[Elktonnick]

If he starts hitting' date=' and they start winning, do you trade him? I don't. If they start winning consistenly, and he is hitting, I think they should finish the season with him. If he's hitting, but the club hasn't turned things around, I think they should bring Middlebrooks and Lavarnway up to get big league exposure, and trade him.[/quote']

 

Our daring young GM seemed to have no problem picking up guys coming off injuries.

[jacksonianmarch]

If he starts hitting' date=' and they start winning, do you trade him? I don't. If they start winning consistenly, and he is hitting, I think they should finish the season with him. If he's hitting, but the club hasn't turned things around, I think they should bring Middlebrooks and Lavarnway up to get big league exposure, and trade him.[/quote']

 

If he starts hitting, you gotta keep him. Let's say Youk gets back to .280 25HR 90RBI, .400OBP. You own a reasonable option on him for 2013 for those numbers. Either you exercise the option and keep him or you exercise the option and deal him, while giving Middlebrooks one more season to get his s*** together.

[ORS]

If he starts hitting' date=' you gotta keep him. Let's say Youk gets back to .280 25HR 90RBI, .400OBP. You own a reasonable option on him for 2013 for those numbers. Either you exercise the option and keep him or you exercise the option and deal him, while giving Middlebrooks one more season to get his s*** together.[/quote']

I think it should depend on whether or not they are in the hunt. Their best bet at a good return is from a contender that needs a 3B down the stretch - I'm looking at you LAA. I think they should avoid the risk of him breaking down again in 2013 and maximize the return, especially if their current best prospect continues to play like he's ready to fill in. If they aren't serious contenders this year and Middlebrooks continues to play well, the second half is a great time to give him his first exposure to MLB play, and then roll with him in 2013. If they keep Youk while not being contenders, and then go with WMB in 2013, they'll have to deal with that first exposure at the beginning of a new season in which they want to compete.

[example1]

Our daring young GM seemed to have no problem picking up guys coming off injuries.

 

He also has no problem sending grade C prospects in return.

[The Boomer]

I'm getting a little frustrated with the over the top angst I'm seeing from people here, and especially from the media.

 

The fact is that Red Sox fans are in the habit of taking the regular season for granted. Each of the last 2 years have forced us to come to terms with the fact that the roster has deteriorated to the point that the regular season is now fully in play. And people don't seem to know how to handle it.

 

People need to recognize the fact that this is no longer a team that can win at will. For awhile it was, certainly while we still had the best one-two lineup combination in baseball, there were a lot of games that we could just throw a switch and take over. That isn't really the case anymore, and people haven't grasped the difference. It's to the point where any prolonged streak of mediocrity is considered a sign of bad character on the team, whether there's any other outward sign of poor character at all.

 

Which is nonsense. Pointing out that we're flawed and less talented than we were is fine. Impugning the character of a team when they fail to win road series only makes sense when that team is expected to win series against 3/4 of the league at any given time and match well against the remaining, also elite teams. The last time this team could win at will was probably 2008. Since then, there have been cracks showing on the roster, and those cracks have grown and widened into significant flaws. And people haven't adjusted their expectations accordingly.

 

The Boston Red Sox are not an elite team by birthright. No team is. Just ask Yankee fans about the 1980's. They were an elite team because they were well managed by a competent front office, which was a radical improvement over what had come before it. Those who remember some of the bad old times know what I'm talking about. Generally speaking, considering our history, this is still the good times. But you'd never know to hear some of the over-spoiled idiots talking.

 

Now we have people demanding "accountability" for a 1-5 start. We just went through an offseason where we fired our manager and let our general manager go. How much more accountability can we really have? What "accoutability" would you impose when you've already replaced all your leadership and the final analysis is that the team simply isn't as talented as past years?

 

And at some point, isn't there a point where the best thing to do is ride it out and take what comes? Do we really have to have wangst parties every time the team starts the first 6 games cold -- which is every year since '06? Does the fact that the Sox might not make the playoffs every year really need to cause this level of overt dismay and rage in the minds of every Sox fan?

 

Because this really starts to get old after awhile.

 

It's really late, and I hope this is semi-coherent, I just had to get it off my chest. Night.

 

Not to mention the AL East has become significantly more competitive since 2007. You used to be able to count on automatic wins against Tampa and the Jays and Orioles weren't particularly great teams either.

[The Boomer]

Most of the attention goes to the recent failures with big-dollar free agency signings. But what doesn't get as much attention is the team's recent failures in bringing MLB-ready talent up from their system. I guess this is stating the obvious' date=' but if you have good young pitchers like the Rays, you don't have to pay huge dollars signing guys like Matsuzaka and Lackey.[/quote']

 

2004 & 2007: FA signings that more or less worked out (Pedro, Schill, Manny, Beckett, Dice) plus some homegrown talent (Papi, Tek) plus a few bouts of good luck (2004 ALCS, Lowell).

 

2010 & 2011: FA signings that haven't worked out (Lackey, CC) plus more homegrown talent (Lester, Buch, Paps, Pedroia, Youk) plus a few bouts of bad luck.

 

The 2004 and 2007 teams could have finished out of the money and the recent teams could have done well. The sorry fact is that FA deals usually don't work out and we were lucky in 2004 and 2007 to get a bunch that did. I speculate that this experience led both the fans and Theo to think they had a better read on FAs than the rest of MLB, an idea which now seems to be mistaken.

[Spitball]

2004 & 2007: FA signings that more or less worked out (Pedro, Schill, Manny, Beckett, Dice) plus some homegrown talent (Papi, Tek) plus a few bouts of good luck (2004 ALCS, Lowell).

 

It may be nit-picking, but Pedro was acquired in a trade with Montreal. Papi was released by the Twins before signing with the Sox. Varitek was acquired in a trade with the Mariners. Home grown talent would be players drafted or originally signed by the organization.

[The Boomer]

It may be nit-picking' date=' but Pedro was acquired in a trade with Montreal. Papi was released by the Twins before signing with the Sox. Varitek was acquired in a trade with the Mariners. Home grown talent would be players drafted or originally signed by the organization.[/quote']

 

Fair enough on Pedro and Papi, although Pedro was going to be a FA at the end of 1997, so it was kind of like the A-Gonz deal where it was basically a trade and signing.

 

Tek never played an inning in the MLB before Boston so I counted him. You can not but that limits your "homegrown" pipeline. A lot of prospects change teams before making the bigs.

[Spitball]

A lot of prospects change teams before making the bigs.

 

That is true, but they are not homegrown unless they are signed and developed within the system. You can buy green bananas and let them ripen at home, but they are still not homegrown. A player is not homegrown unless he is completely developed within the system.

[The Village Idiot]

I think my fellow Boston fans have become far too spoiled.

 

Championships by all 4 teams over the past 8 years? That is just an insane amount of sports fortune. Insane!

 

We are not worthy. No one is. So when 1 of those 4 teams misses the playoffs a couple of years in a row, sorry, no one really has any right to complain. Everyone does have the right to analyze and say appropriately critical things of the team(s) they care so much about. But anyone who claims to be a pissed or disillusioned fan gets NONE of my sympathy or of the rest of the country's sympathy, trust me.

 

It's high time for Sox fans to stop sounding like Yankee fans (aka spoiled brats) and start taking a deep breath, being grateful when the team wins, and getting behind this team you've rooted for now for 1 or 10 or all of your years on this planet. Like the old days.

 

Being a Boston fan didn't used to be for the faint of heart...too many lily-livered new fans among us, apparently.

 

Sox'll be fine, and stop your wimping and complaining and just root on your team.