Bard to Rotation a Mistake?

[jacksonianmarch]

a700, while your depiction of Doerr may be accurate, a single look at someone won't do it. These advanced scouts follow players 20+ times before drafting or signing them. There is a reason for that, guys can have good days even against the best of competition. For example, I played with 3 guys who got drafted in college and on a day when scouting cards were being signed, I had the best day of my life. 10 of my 15 balls in BP were hit out of the park, my first 2 AB's, I took the pitcher deep and I was walked the final 2 AB's. A single look that day would suffice to make me look like pro material. The following day, I went 0-4 with 3K's. An advanced look would show that I couldnt hit a slider, mashed any sort of fastball and had poor plate discipline. You have to have a mix of advanced scouting and effective stat analysis to be right about players. Having one or the other misses big things entirely.

[jung]

Funny you should mention guys getting older one thing to consider as you try to rate them 700. I have been wondering all off season if this would be the year that Ortiz "aged" before our eyes. However while I have seen Youk fade in recent years after seeing him swing yesterday he might bear more watching than Ortiz in that regard.

 

Justin V can make a lotta' guys look bad but there is a difference between looking bad and looking like a rusty gate creaking on its hinges. Way to early to make anything like a snap judgement but it might be worthwhile to watch Youk at the plate in the coming weeks. Maybe he will look a bit better as the weather warms. A little warmth always helps us old folks.

[a700hitter]

a700' date=' while your depiction of Doerr may be accurate, a single look at someone won't do it. These advanced scouts follow players 20+ times before drafting or signing them. There is a reason for that, guys can have good days even against the best of competition. For example, I played with 3 guys who got drafted in college and on a day when scouting cards were being signed, I had the best day of my life. 10 of my 15 balls in BP were hit out of the park, my first 2 AB's, I took the pitcher deep and I was walked the final 2 AB's. A single look that day would suffice to make me look like pro material. The following day, I went 0-4 with 3K's. An advanced look would show that I couldnt hit a slider, mashed any sort of fastball and had poor plate discipline. You have to have a mix of advanced scouting and effective stat analysis to be right about players. Having one or the other misses big things entirely.[/quote']Back in Williams day, travel to the west coast for scouting was very rare compared to the present day. I don't disagree that it is sound practice for scouts to see players as much as possible.

[SoxSport]

If Cafardo is Bobby V's mouthpiece Bard will probably be on a short leash as a starter.

 

Actually, the best reliever yesterday was Morales. Some people are wondering why he isn't being considered for closer. Maybe the answer is they need him as the specialist. But then why not get another left hander like Hill or Miller for that? Maybe also, they are concerned about his control.

 

This Bobby V vs FO thing on personnel decisions could kill the Red Sox this year. The FO apparently is deciding who starts and who closes. They wouldn't if I were managing the team. The question is how long Bobby V lasts.

[VA Sox Fan]

Actually, the best reliever yesterday was Morales. Some people are wondering why he isn't being considered for closer. Maybe the answer is they need him as the specialist. But then why not get another left hander like Hill or Miller for that? Maybe also, they are concerned about his control.

 

This Bobby V vs FO thing on personnel decisions could kill the Red Sox this year. The FO apparently is deciding who starts and who closes. They wouldn't if I were managing the team. The question is how long Bobby V lasts.

 

That made me laugh

[User Name]

That made me laugh

 

Exactly. He says a lot of things that just don't make any sense. A manager is an employee of the FO, and even the best like LaRussa have been known to bend to certain FO demands.

[example1]

Given that Papelbon wasn't coming back for anything short of a huge contract, I just don't see great options who were on the market this offseason. Our best hope is that they minimize the number of times they need a closer. Starts like Lester's yesterday will certainly help that.

 

I don't know if there are injuries to any of these guys, but Mike Gonzalez, Hong Chih Kuo, or Cla Meredith could potentially shore up the 'pen.

 

Also, I'm sure Pittsburgh would be willing to listen on Joel Hanrahan if the Sox were willing to pay a boatload for him. Too bad they're pretty much screwed as far as negotiations go right now.

[jung]

Yea I thought the early take on V as Manager that he would not bend to the wishes of the FO were unrealistic.

 

His old GM from the Mets days was on the radio the other day saying that in retrospect the part of having V as Manager that he should have acknowledged more that would have helped him, V and the Mets was the fact that V truly has a terrific baseball mind. He acts like he is the smartest guy in the room and many times when it comes to baseball, he is.

 

The two things that were hard to take according to his old GM was that V came on guns blazing from day 1 and eventually regardless of how loud you are, your audience or players begins to adjust to your volume and ultimately you still get tuned out. V never left himself anywhere to go because he was 10/10 right from day 1. So where do you go with your players when you have already been 10/10 right from day one. Nobody has 11/10 in their bag of tricks.

 

The second thing that was tough to take was sort of a management view of the same "problem" V would have with players. V would not dial back on anything ever even when it came to issues that left much clean up for the GM. So if he wanted a player he went to the mats to get that player, fought it out in the media and left the mess for the GM to clean up. If he wanted to do something a certain way, he would go to the mats for that way of doing things, fight it out in the media and leave the mess for the GM to clean up.

 

After awhile all that clean up work left a GM feeling like V was high maintenance on the one end and not really coming up with the goods on the other end. Sort of like saying it pays to be attractive if you are going to be high maintenance. Ugly and high maintenance makes it easy for somebody to pull the plug on you when pulling the plug may in fact not be the right thing for anybody....just the way it is.

[YAZMAN]

Great' date=' so by the time BV is done with him, he'll actually be the basket case I thought he was when he came up.[/quote']

 

Soooo much damage done on so many fronts this year.

 

 

Plus, I miss Mike Timlin......

[VA Sox Fan]

No big shock....

 

Red Sox option Bard back to Portland

 

Posted by Peter Abraham, Globe Staff April 28, 2013 05:32 PM

 

The Red Sox optioned Daniel Bard back to Double A Portland after the game today. He appeared in two games, allowing one run on one hit with two walks and one strikeout.

 

The Red Sox called Bard up on Tuesday to provide protection for the bullpen after Steven Wright threw 82 pitches in a relief appearance and was returned to the minors. With Joel Hanrahan expected to be activated on Tuesday, Bard was expendable.

 

Bard was not necessarily ready after making only eight appearances for Portland. But he was the only healthy reliever on the 40-man roster who was available at the time.

 

The Red Sox also have been impressed with the work righthander Alex Wilson has done. In six appearances, he has thrown six scoreless innings.

 

Hanrahan threw a scoreless inning for Triple A Pawtucket this afternoon, allowing a walk. He is on the disabled list with a hamstring strain and is ready to return.

 

Lefthander Craig Breslow also pitched an inning for Pawtucket. He allowed a run on a hit and two walks. Breslow did not pitch in spring training because of a shoulder injury and may need a few more appearances before being ready.

[italstallianion]

That's at least good to hear knowing that Hanrahan is coming back soon and that Breslow is on his way.

[SoxSport]

Cherington's worst decision was probably moving Bard to starter--so he could save money by not signing another starter. What he wound up doing was depriving the Red Sox of one of the best setup guys in baseball, and perhaps permanently damaging his career. It was a blatant case of mismanagement that higher ups often get away with.

[User Name]

You have to be a bot. Have to be. No one is this dumb.

[SoxSport]

Yea I thought the early take on V as Manager that he would not bend to the wishes of the FO were unrealistic.

 

 

We don't have all the facts, but in the clash of Cherington vs Valentine's personnel views, V was probably right. But Ben is Henry's fair-haired boy, so V didn't get what he wanted. That meant Iggy and Lav went to Pawtucket and Bard moved to starter. I suspect Farrell is more of an insider than V was, so he has more leverage. He may well wind up being the next Red Sox GM.

[seabeachfred]

Cherington's worst decision was probably moving Bard to starter--so he could save money by not signing another starter. What he wound up doing was depriving the Red Sox of one of the best setup guys in baseball, and perhaps permanently damaging his career. It was a blatant case of mismanagement that higher ups often get away with.

 

It was a bad decision to make Bard a starter----I don't think anyone with any common sense can argue against that considering what has happened to him. However Sox Sport, it is now pretty obvious that Henry had pulled in his wallet and the indicator was when we traded Scutaro to save six million. It was believed that money would now be used to sign one of those FA pitchers still available. Never happened. That was proof Cherington simply wasn't going to be given the resources to upgrade the pitching staff.

 

Cherington got the brunt of criticism and I was one of them, but in light of later events the fault lied with Henry and Lucchino whose inept leadership put the team at risk. Now with Cherington apparently in control and with a solid manager in John Farrell we may finally be back on the right track. Those two seem to work together very well.

[User Name]

It wasn't Cherington, or LL or Henry, or BV or Farrell. Bard was the one who started the rotation experiment. This is common knowledge.

[VA Sox Fan]

I remember when Papelbon wanted to be a starter for a short time. He changed his mind. Wish Bard had had the foresight Paps had.

[VA Sox Fan]

It wasn't Cherington, or LL or Henry, or BV or Farrell. Bard was the one who started the rotation experiment. This is common knowledge.

 

^ Yes. It's amazing how facts are ignored and fantasy takes over.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

It wasn't Cherington, or LL or Henry, or BV or Farrell. Bard was the one who started the rotation experiment. This is common knowledge.

 

You should edit your post and make this in the biggest font available.

[jung]

What is common knowledge...that Bard was the GM last year? That is news to me. A player can want to do something and it might be the wrong thing to do but he does not become a starter just because he wants to whether he starts the ball rolling or not, especially one that does not have his financial claws into the Sox in any meaningful way. If that were the case, Ace would have his way.

 

Bard to the rotation fit what the Sox wanted to do last year organizationally. They really did not appear to want to spend the money to fill out the rotation properly. So Bard to the rotation really killed three birds with one stone. The Sox no longer thought Bard could be or should be a closer. So Bard to the rotation gave them a way to try to utilize Bard outside of the closers role. Plus it gave Bard his shot at what he wanted. Plus they could clap themselves on the back and say...job well done....we have our rotation filled out and did not spend much doing it. They did not spend much money doing it. However it sure as hell was not a job well done. This site is just amazing sometimes in what it can convince itself is reality. Bard as GM just about takes the cake for revisionist history.

[User Name]

But was it not Bard who suggested the idea? Would you, trying to run an organization not try to allow players to thrive in the roles they feel more comfortable with? Make no mistake, this isn't the first time Bard had requested to be converted to a starter. Part of the reason he was allowed to is because it fit a need, but it's f***ing disingenous to say it was cherington's decision.

 

Responding to the idea that it wasn't all Bard's idea (when it was) just like it was Papelbon's some time ago with "Was Bard the GM last year?" is an exercise in ignorance. GM's aren't dictators that don't allow players/managers to try new things they think could benefit themselves and the team.

 

The point doesn't even make sense, seeing how Aceves came into camp stretched out with every assurance that if anything happens, he'd be given a shot at the rotation.....and then was, albeit with disastrous results. Is Aceves the GM this year?

 

Please.

[jung]

The only part of that post that was accurate is the please.

 

I had said all through last year that it was Bard's desire to be a starter and that IS common knowledge. That it fit the organizational goals for last year should also be common knowledge and finally and most certainly that the decision when push came to shove was way above Bard's pay grade should also be common knowledge. Laughable....this place is often utterly and completely laughable.

 

And now that I think about it, Ace has been expressing a desire to be a starter before last season started....well in time for him to have been stretched out last year and if not last year certainly this year. Did he come into the season a starter and has he ever gotten anything more than a spot starter role here?

[User Name]

The point flew right over your head.

 

Bard wasn't given a chance to start just because it fit organizational philosophy. Organizational philosophy was adjusted to fit Bard's desire to start.

 

The guy wanted to make his money, and they didn't want a malcontent who they knew didn't have the goods to close setting up for a lesser pitcher.

 

The funny thing is, hindsight is 20/20, and it's easy to drop the blame-hammer now, especially when you ignore key facts.

[jung]

Oh so that is it...the Sox CHANGED their organizational goals for a player they are paying $1.8m per year. Laughable .....just too funny.

[User Name]

I give up. When you can argue what's actually being written hit me back brah. What's laughable is poor reading comprehension skills.

[jung]

What you don't actually believe anybody thinks Bard caused all this for himself or that anybody would seriously claim that he did....do you?

[a700hitter]

One of the only things that Bobby V was right about was that Bard was not a starter. There was no backing from the FO to pull the plug on the experiment. Ben Cherries was certainly complicit in the disastrous experiment. Bobby V let the kid take his turn, and when he imploded, he left him on the mound to completely embarrass himself and end the experiment. The kid was too stupid to be embarrassed by his performance. He thought he just needed a few adjustments before his next start. He was clueless, and he probably still is clueless.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The point flew right over your head.

 

Bard wasn't given a chance to start just because it fit organizational philosophy. Organizational philosophy was adjusted to fit Bard's desire to start.

 

The guy wanted to make his money, and they didn't want a malcontent who they knew didn't have the goods to close setting up for a lesser pitcher.

 

The funny thing is, hindsight is 20/20, and it's easy to drop the blame-hammer now, especially when you ignore key facts.

 

Bard said, multiple times, "I can start or I can close, and I think I can do either of them really well".

 

Did he prefer to start? Sure. But don't act like Bard had Cherrington and the FO's nuts in a grinder telling them he starts or he turns into a diva.

 

Cherrington very clearly made Bard a SP because it's much easier and cheaper to find a bullpen piece than a starting pitcher with the upside that Bard showed.

 

It was a good gamble to take. It backfired, which sucks, but at the time, I agreed with the decision.

 

The organizational philosophy wasn't altered to adhere to one player. The organizational philosophy was altered due to market conditions and the financial constraints on the team during the 2012 offseason.

[User Name]

Clearly against published report from reputable sources. I'll take their word for it.

 

The reason they went the starter route is because they (like many in the industry) believed Bard lacked the mental makeup to close. You're not better than the Red Sox at evaluating these type of issues, and neither is any poster on a Red Sox website. Don't pretend that you are.

[a700hitter]

Bard said, multiple times, "I can start or I can close, and I think I can do either of them really well".

 

Did he prefer to start? Sure. But don't act like Bard had Cherrington and the FO's nuts in a grinder telling them he starts or he turns into a diva.

 

Cherrington very clearly made Bard a SP because it's much easier and cheaper to find a bullpen piece than a starting pitcher with the upside that Bard showed.

 

It was a good gamble to take. It backfired, which sucks, but at the time, I agreed with the decision.

 

The organizational philosophy wasn't altered to adhere to one player. The organizational philosophy was altered due to market conditions and the financial constraints on the team during the 2012 offseason.

I think your recollection is correct.