So, we're starting over. Expectations?

[Dojji]

Without knowing who the manager is, this is all just speculation of course, but I'm curious where our hearts are at at about this point.

[Palodios]

Honestly, I think this whole "the clubhouse is ugly, everything is s***" situation could be a good thing. It means that this team is actually talented afterall, and it isn't the fault of any executive who put the team together, it is the fault of the players and the coaches.

 

It means this team is still talented enough for 100 wins.

[SoxSport]

I think it's too early to vote on this. Depends on who they hire--manager, coaches, GM.

 

They have to get rid of all the rot first. Henry/Werner/Lucky need a change in attitude.

The whole organization got soft.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I don't think this is really even much of a discussion.

 

The postseason is theirs to lose again next season. Just because it didn't work out because of a historically bad collapse in September doesn't mean this is a 90 win team.

 

This team is still a 95-100 win team, as constructed. All this team needs is some SP depth (i.e. Brandon Webb, Dontrelle Willis, Chris Young, etc.). Bring in some low-risk, high-reward guys to be your #6, #7, and #8 starters.

 

Hell, go out and sign Mark Buehrle as your #5 man, add Bard to the rotation, and make Lackey your #6 starter. His contract is a sunk cost. The bills are paid. Just because more money is allocated to him doesn't mean he's the better option.

 

If this team wants to win, Lackey will be in the bullpen serving mop-up duty with a rotation of:

 

Lester

Buchholz

Beerckett (if he's not traded)

Buehrle

Bard

 

Depth:

Lackey

Webb

Young

Tazawa

Weiland

Miller

 

It's not hard at all to put this team right back in a position to win. They're in a position to win right now. Add some SP depth and they will be favorites, once again.

[InfernoOrangeSS]

I think there will be some changes in the clubhouse, as to what is allowed to go on. I think the team is too talented to not make the playoffs next year, unless they give up like this year.

I seen a story on FoxSports.com that mentioned Lackey, Beckett, Lester, and Bucholtz as the "beer & chicken" crew that were hinted at earlier. Supposedly, the strength and conditioning coach "begged" them to get back on their training program.

 

I think we will be fine next year.

 

Just my opinion.

[FredLynn]

I don't think this is really even much of a discussion.

 

The postseason is theirs to lose again next season. Just because it didn't work out because of a historically bad collapse in September doesn't mean this is a 90 win team.

 

This team is still a 95-100 win team, as constructed. All this team needs is some SP depth (i.e. Brandon Webb, Dontrelle Willis, Chris Young, etc.). Bring in some low-risk, high-reward guys to be your #6, #7, and #8 starters.

 

Hell, go out and sign Mark Buehrle as your #5 man, add Bard to the rotation, and make Lackey your #6 starter. His contract is a sunk cost. The bills are paid. Just because more money is allocated to him doesn't mean he's the better option.

 

If this team wants to win, Lackey will be in the bullpen serving mop-up duty with a rotation of:

 

Lester

Buchholz

Beerckett (if he's not traded)

Buehrle

Bard

 

Depth:

Lackey

Webb

Young

Tazawa

Weiland

Miller

 

It's not hard at all to put this team right back in a position to win. They're in a position to win right now. Add some SP depth and they will be favorites, once again.

 

I think we are probably about 2-3 years away right now. I cannot see an elite SP that is going to come available this year. CJ Wilson is not that guy. I remember that someone posted a list of SP FAs for after NEXT year, and that list is impressive. I would rather accept mediocrity next year and try to win a ring in 2013 than go after someone who isn't really the answer. Our problem is pitching; that much is obvious. I just don't see us solving that plus the clubhouse issues in one year, no matter who is managing or who the GM is. Also, in case anyone missed it, here is an article with some of the details of the scope of the clubhouse problems:

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2011/10/12/red_sox_unity_dedication_dissolved_during_epic_late_season_collapse/?p1=News_links

[Dojji]

I seen a story on FoxSports.com that mentioned Lackey, Beckett, Lester, and Bucholtz as the "beer & chicken" crew that were hinted at earlier. Supposedly, the strength and conditioning coach "begged" them to get back on their training program.

 

That's 4/5 of our rotation, and none of them were effective down the stretch.

 

I think we are downplaying that beer and chicken club because it sounds like fun. If they aren't listening to the coaches the team needs to break up that bit of bad chemistry.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I think we are probably about 2-3 years away right now. I cannot see an elite SP that is going to come available this year. CJ Wilson is not that guy. I remember that someone posted a list of SP FAs for after NEXT year, and that list is impressive. I would rather accept mediocrity next year and try to win a ring in 2013 than go after someone who isn't really the answer. Our problem is pitching; that much is obvious. I just don't see us solving that plus the clubhouse issues in one year, no matter who is managing or who the GM is. Also, in case anyone missed it, here is an article with some of the details of the scope of the clubhouse problems:

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2011/10/12/red_sox_unity_dedication_dissolved_during_epic_late_season_collapse/?p1=News_links

 

Well, I was more referring to trading for a SP rather than signing one in FA. Someone like Haren or Felix.

 

It all depends on who we receive back for Theo. Gammons thinks we will get Brett Jackson, an OF which Baseball America ranked as the #38 overall prospect. Last year, in 115 games between AA and AAA, he hit .274/.379/.490 with 20 HR and 21 SB. In his stint in AAA, he hit .297/.388/.551 in 47 games with 10 HR. He's only 22 years old, and Gammons noted that he could come in and be the everyday RF for the Red Sox next year. He's a RH bat with power, and a potential 20/20 guy.

 

That would allow us to trade Ellsbury for an elite SP and then put Kalish in CF, or sign a guy like DeJesus or Crisp if Kalish needs some more development.

 

Plain and simple, this team is very fixable right now, just as long as the right moves are made.

[Dojji]

I remember that someone posted a list of SP FAs for after NEXT year' date=' and that list is impressive[/quote']

 

Yeah, the free agent list from 2 years away is impressive.

 

Because the FA pool two years away from any point is always impressive. Because the last year of the contract is where most re-signings and trade-and-sign deals happen.

 

100% guarantee you that the large majority of that free agent talent does not actually reach free agency.

[Palodios]

NWIH the Cubs give up a top 50 prospect for Theo.

[SoxFanForsyth]

NWIH the Cubs give up a top 50 prospect for Theo.

 

Gammons doesn't just spew s*** usually. I thought when he was talking about the "disconnect" between Theo and Francona, he was spewing a load of s***. Now look at what's happened.

 

When it comes to the Red Sox, Gammons is very well connected, so if the Sox get Brett Jackson, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

 

And lets not forget, the Cubs are getting an elite GM that is just as important to an organization as an elite player.

[Gringo]

The cynical bastard in me says the Rays and Yankees are better, the Jays are about to spend some money and contend for the wildcard, and the Orioles aren't scared of us anymore. If there is any team in the AL East on the decline, it's us.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The cynical bastard in me says the Rays and Yankees are better' date=' the Jays are about to spend some money and contend for the wildcard, and the Orioles aren't scared of us anymore. If there is any team in the AL East on the decline, it's us.[/quote']

 

Well, at least you got part of it right :harhar:

 

Joking, but look at it from the outside. If you were a fan of another team, would you want to play the Red Sox, with that lineup?

 

I wouldn't. Regardless of the management and personnel changes. I wouldn't want to have to face that team. It's supremely talented.

[redsoxrules]

There's most likely going to be more teams added to playoffs next year .

If thats the case , I cant see how this team cannot make the playoffs

[Muggah]

I think it's too early to vote on this. Depends on who they hire--manager, coaches, GM.

 

They have to get rid of all the rot first. Henry/Werner/Lucky need a change in attitude.

The whole organization got soft.

 

 

Ya, I tend to agree. There's a lot to do. And it's too early to tell. Let's wait and see who is brought in as GM and manager, and what their first moves are. Actions, in this particular case, are going to speak a lot louder than any words will. If the new sheriff comes and and we immediately see asswipes like Wakefield and Varitek told to take a hike like they should have been told to three years ago, then fine--you've got my attention. And then we'll go from there and deal with the likes of Big Diva and Bigmouth Youkilis and Lackey and so on.

 

If nothing happens and we just get more empty rhetoric---which they're good at, btw, and which they know flies with the pink hat and pollyanna factions, then we'll know where we stand, too.

[Gringo]

Well, at least you got part of it right :harhar:

 

Joking, but look at it from the outside. If you were a fan of another team, would you want to play the Red Sox, with that lineup?

 

I wouldn't. Regardless of the management and personnel changes. I wouldn't want to have to face that team. It's supremely talented.

 

A gimpy Youk, an aging Papi, a big question mark over Crawford, mediocre bats in Reddick, Salty and Scutaro...and can Ellsbury replicate the year he just had? Who knows?

 

We should be able to bank on Pedroia batting .300 with 20 HR's....Gonzo batting .325 with hopefully more HR's....It would be nice to see Papi hit like he did again, but who knows?

 

The lineup looked a lot better last preseason with a shiny new Carl Crawford batting second.

 

As for the pitching, well, collectively, it's middle of the road, with a core of guys who apparently don't give a s***. That's a problem.

[a700hitter]

There's most likely going to be more teams added to playoffs next year .

If thats the case , I cant see how this team cannot make the playoffs

They are planning on having the Wild Card teams play a 1 game playoff to determine which team advances to the LDS. That would make winning the division very very important.

[FredLynn]

Ya, I tend to agree. There's a lot to do. And it's too early to tell. Let's wait and see who is brought in as GM and manager, and what their first moves are. Actions, in this particular case, are going to speak a lot louder than any words will. If the new sheriff comes and and we immediately see asswipes like Wakefield and Varitek told to take a hike like they should have been told to three years ago, then fine--you've got my attention. And then we'll go from there and deal with the likes of Big Diva and Bigmouth Youkilis and Lackey and so on.

 

If nothing happens and we just get more empty rhetoric---which they're good at, btw, and which they know flies with the pink hat and pollyanna factions, then we'll know where we stand, too.

 

HAHAHAHA

Entering the forum with a splash, eh Muggah?

I think that the new GM is not going to grant Wakefield and Varitek charter membership in the "good 'ol boy network". The handwriting is on the wall for those two. Brady posted that Varitek could be given a three month contract then be made into a coach; that seems reasonable to me. Historically he has been decent, even good, for the first few months, before his age becomes a factor. Lavarnway is probably not quite ready yet, and I don't really see a catcher anywhere that can help us from outside the organization. And Varitek, for all his shortcomings as a catcher nowadays, would probably make a very good catcher's coach.

Welcome aboard! IPOT and Orwell have promised to follow; others may too.

[FredLynn]

Well, at least you got part of it right :harhar:

 

Joking, but look at it from the outside. If you were a fan of another team, would you want to play the Red Sox, with that lineup?

 

I wouldn't. Regardless of the management and personnel changes. I wouldn't want to have to face that team. It's supremely talented.

 

I would not want to face that lineup-we led the league in both runs scored and OPS this year. But I sure wouldn't mind facing that pitching staff. Maybe you would get lucky and face Lackey or Wakefield or Miller.....or Beckett on a bad day. Maybe the new manager would bring in Albers or Jenks (yes, he has another year left on his contract) in the sixth. We finished NINTH in overall ERA this year. The problem is PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING....and clubhouse chemistry.

[Palodios]

I would not want to face that lineup-we led the league in both runs scored and OPS this year. But I sure wouldn't mind facing that pitching staff. Maybe you would get lucky and face Lackey or Wakefield or Miller.....or Beckett on a bad day. Maybe the new manager would bring in Albers or Jenks (yes' date=' he has another year left on his contract) in the sixth. We finished NINTH in overall ERA this year. The problem is PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING....and clubhouse chemistry.[/quote']

 

Beckett and Lester spent the second half of the year fat, lazy and out of shape, and they still pitched to low 3's ERA. Throw in better conditioning, Buchholz, and the mystery #4 starter, and this staff could be brutal once again soon.

[VA Sox Fan]

HAHAHAHA

Entering the forum with a splash, eh Muggah?

I think that the new GM is not going to grant Wakefield and Varitek charter membership in the "good 'ol boy network". The handwriting is on the wall for those two. Brady posted that Varitek could be given a three month contract then be made into a coach; that seems reasonable to me. Historically he has been decent, even good, for the first few months, before his age becomes a factor. Lavarnway is probably not quite ready yet, and I don't really see a catcher anywhere that can help us from outside the organization. And Varitek, for all his shortcomings as a catcher nowadays, would probably make a very good catcher's coach.

Welcome aboard! IPOT and Orwell have promised to follow; others may too.

 

Varitek as the manager? Not yet, if ever

 

Posted by Peter Abraham, Globe Staff October 11, 2011 11:08 AM

By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff

 

We asked the question yesterday whether the Red Sox should keep Jason Varitek and Tim Wakefield next season.

 

Nearly 13,000 readers voted in the poll. A few dozen of them also e-mailed to suggest that the Red Sox hire Varitek as their manager and retain Wakefield as a coach.

 

I understand that sentiment. Wakefield and Varitek have been with the team for a long time and have handled themselves with professionalism throughout. But the odds of them staying on as the manager or a coach are very slim.

 

For starters, both have said they want to continue playing. Whether that is in Boston or somewhere else, it is certainly their prerogative to continue trying to play. It also would be incredibly difficult to go from playing one year to coaching or managing the next. Most players take some time with that transition, either by taking some time off or working in the minors.

 

It also would be tough to go from playing with somebody to managing them or coaching them. There has to be a line and drawing that line is difficult if you're too close to that player.

 

The other reason is financial. Varitek has earned approximately $65 million in his career and Wakefield $54 million. They simply won't need jobs once they retire from playing. There are some prominent former players who decide to stay in the game (Don Mattingly, for instance) but most are content to enjoy the fruits of their success. Can't blame them for that.

 

Coaching and managing is hard work. You arrive at spring training in early February and for 162 games, you're at the ballpark four or five hours before the game preparing scouting reports, throwing batting practice or watching video. It's also a very transient profession and not a particularly well-paid one when compared to playing. Most coaches are guys who need jobs and they put up with the rigors.

 

Varitek is getting married this offseason and has three daughters from his first marriage. A few months ago, when I asked him about the idea of managing, he looked at me like I was crazy.

 

"Maybe someday," he said. "A long time from now. Maybe."

 

As for Wakefield, I've never once got the impression that he would want to coach. He's a smart guy and surely he could learn the profession. But let's face it, he throws a knuckleball and his skill set as a pitcher doesn't exactly translate to coaching.

 

The Red Sox are a major market team built to win now. They're not the kind of team where you break in an inexperienced manager and/or coach. Jason might be a great candidate 10 years from now. But in 2012? Not a chance.

[FredLynn]

Varitek as the manager? Not yet' date=' if ever[/b']

 

Posted by Peter Abraham, Globe Staff October 11, 2011 11:08 AM

By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff

 

We asked the question yesterday whether the Red Sox should keep Jason Varitek and Tim Wakefield next season.

 

Nearly 13,000 readers voted in the poll. A few dozen of them also e-mailed to suggest that the Red Sox hire Varitek as their manager and retain Wakefield as a coach.

 

I understand that sentiment. Wakefield and Varitek have been with the team for a long time and have handled themselves with professionalism throughout. But the odds of them staying on as the manager or a coach are very slim.

 

For starters, both have said they want to continue playing. Whether that is in Boston or somewhere else, it is certainly their prerogative to continue trying to play. It also would be incredibly difficult to go from playing one year to coaching or managing the next. Most players take some time with that transition, either by taking some time off or working in the minors.

 

It also would be tough to go from playing with somebody to managing them or coaching them. There has to be a line and drawing that line is difficult if you're too close to that player.

 

The other reason is financial. Varitek has earned approximately $65 million in his career and Wakefield $54 million. They simply won't need jobs once they retire from playing. There are some prominent former players who decide to stay in the game (Don Mattingly, for instance) but most are content to enjoy the fruits of their success. Can't blame them for that.

 

Coaching and managing is hard work. You arrive at spring training in early February and for 162 games, you're at the ballpark four or five hours before the game preparing scouting reports, throwing batting practice or watching video. It's also a very transient profession and not a particularly well-paid one when compared to playing. Most coaches are guys who need jobs and they put up with the rigors.

 

Varitek is getting married this offseason and has three daughters from his first marriage. A few months ago, when I asked him about the idea of managing, he looked at me like I was crazy.

 

"Maybe someday," he said. "A long time from now. Maybe."

 

As for Wakefield, I've never once got the impression that he would want to coach. He's a smart guy and surely he could learn the profession. But let's face it, he throws a knuckleball and his skill set as a pitcher doesn't exactly translate to coaching.

 

The Red Sox are a major market team built to win now. They're not the kind of team where you break in an inexperienced manager and/or coach. Jason might be a great candidate 10 years from now. But in 2012? Not a chance.

 

I posted that I thought he would make a good CATCHER'S COACH, not a manager. Thats a long ways off, as PA stated.

[FredLynn]

Beckett and Lester spent the second half of the year fat' date=' lazy and out of shape, and they still pitched to low 3's ERA. Throw in better conditioning, Buchholz, and the mystery #4 starter, and this staff could be brutal once again soon.[/quote']

 

It was already brutal to watch this year. You want more?

[ORS]

Expectations:

 

The entire 2012 season for the Sox players will be the most intense fishbowl, where every comment, gesture, and facial expression leads to obscene speculation about the clubhouse chemistry/atmosphere, ever seen in the history of professional sports.

[FredLynn]

Incidentally, after Aug 1 Beckett's ERA was 4.50 and Lester was at 4.08. That falloff needs to be addressed too.

[Hawkguy]

I think it's too early to vote on this. Depends on who they hire--manager, coaches, GM.

 

They have to get rid of all the rot first. Henry/Werner/Lucky need a change in attitude.

The whole organization got soft.

 

Agree!

[example1]

Expectations:

 

The entire 2012 season for the Sox players will be the most intense fishbowl, where every comment, gesture, and facial expression leads to obscene speculation about the clubhouse chemistry/atmosphere, ever seen in the history of professional sports.

 

1) We've missed you here. Hope you're doing alright.

 

2) You're right.

 

3) It is going to make the minor curfuffle between Youkilis and Ellsbury look like a minor faux-pas.

[VA Sox Fan]

1) We've missed you here. Hope you're doing alright.

 

2) You're right.

 

3) It is going to make the minor curfuffle between Youkilis and Ellsbury look like a minor faux-pas.

 

DITTO! Missed ya tons ORS!

 

I also agree w/ 2 & 3.

[Cocos Disciples]

Expectations:

 

The entire 2012 season for the Sox players will be the most intense fishbowl, where every comment, gesture, and facial expression leads to obscene speculation about the clubhouse chemistry/atmosphere, ever seen in the history of professional sports.

 

And the starting rotation is forced to go straight-edge vegan.

[Muggah]

The cynical bastard in me says the Rays and Yankees are better' date=' the Jays are about to spend some money and contend for the wildcard, and the Orioles aren't scared of us anymore. If there is any team in the AL East on the decline, it's us.[/quote']

 

Sadly you're right. We're coming off two straight 3rd place finishes with a roster that's in complete disarray. It's not unrealistic to expect a couple 4th place finishes the next 2-3 seasons.